Can my starter freeze?

The Bendix was out and it engaged to the flywheel but wont turn. I just get the ‘whirring noise’.
Thats why I think something is broken inside
 

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jd21476 said:
The Bendix was out and it engaged to the flywheel but wont turn. I just get the ‘whirring noise’.
Thats why I think something is broken inside
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I think that photo shows the gear engaged. Not a mechanic but maybe you are right about something internal broken. Can the starter motor shear its connection to the Bendix drive? In the hope that it wasn’t that, I would be tempted to move the prop a few degrees counterclockwise with the Bendix engaged and then try the start button again even though I really don’t know what else to do.
 
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jd21476 said:
The Bendix was out and it engaged to the flywheel but wont turn. I just get the ‘whirring noise’.
Thats why I think something is broken inside
Click to expand...
That looks like the gear is extended but not engaged. I bet the starter is loose on the engine. It might have dropped away from the gear.
 
So I rotated the prop multiple times and the bendix spins so it is definately touching the flywheel but it doesnt turn it
 
It is possible the starter drive broke so the gear is engaging the flywheel but it is not spinning.
 
jd21476 said:
The battery is new and seems to have enough juice. What kind if lubricant spay should I use for now just to be able to get home?
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I would use a lock lube that's only graphite and a solvent.
 
I know that Sky-tec starters have a shear pin that's supposed to break in case you get kickback (e.g. trying to start from a non-impulse coupler mag). I don't know if other starters are like that. Does yours have a shear pin?

The Sky-tec also hides spare shear pins on the starter itself so that you can get home in case you break one.
https://skytec.aero/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Shear_Repair.pdf
 
asicer said:
I know that Sky-tec starters have a shear pin that's supposed to break in case you get kickback (e.g. trying to start from a non-impulse coupler mag). I don't know if other starters are like that. Does yours have a shear pin?

The Sky-tec also hides spare shear pins on the starter itself so that you can get home in case you break one.
https://skytec.aero/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Shear_Repair.pdf
Click to expand...

It is worth noting that not all Sky Tec starters are the same. As far as I know, there is only one series of starters that have the shear pin and they aren’t shy about telling you about the spares or that they break. I haven’t had one break on me yet but I’m sure the day will come.
 
Look, guys:

Starter (2).png
I took the OP's photo and made some notes on it. The picture is taken from the top, standing in front of the airplane. You can clearly see the bendix has extended forward as it normally would. The bendix gear teeth would normally be engaged in the flywheel teeth at this point. They're not. That starter has moved away from the flywheel, to the right, and the teeth can't do anything. There are four studs and nuts that hold that starter to the bottom of the crankcase, and all of them are loose, the inboard two much more than the outboard, and the starter has swung away to the observer's right. There might also be some severe wear in the front shaft bearing of the starter, inside that nipple on the front of the casting, but it would have to be extreme and the bendix would have been dragging on the casting. There isn't much clearance in there at all.

There is no shear pin in the Prestolite starter, which is what this one is. The shaft would have to be broken between the bendix and armature, and that would take some doing.

The OP's "whirring noise" might be the teeth just touching. That'll create quite a howl.
 
Good eyes, Dan, and nice explanation! Thanks!
 
But when I spin the prop the bendix gear does spin. I even took a screw driver to see if I could pry the Bendix wheel up to see if it had fallen away and it did not move not did the starter itself.
 
jd21476 said:
But when I spin the prop the bendix gear does spin. I even took a screw driver to see if I could pry the Bendix wheel up to see if it had fallen away and it did not move not did the starter itself.
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That starter is heavy and not likely to move easily even if it's loose. There might be just enough engagement so that the bendix (and the starter) turn when you turn the prop, but when it's the starter that has to move the prop it's a different story. The engine is much harder to rotate than the starter is.

Might be that the ratchet in the bendix is stripped. It's there to allow the bendix to spin up after start so the engagement latches will release, without overspeeding the starter.

Skytec sooner or later, anyway. Prestolite hasn't made those starters in a long time.
 
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jd21476 said:
i did. I even by passed everything and went straight tot he solenoid. We had 14.4v and still nothing
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14.4 volts? Then this was done with jumper cables from a car with its engine at at fast idle? A battery only gives 12 volts.

Given the cost of round trip travel it seems like over night shipping from a supplier would be be cheaper and much faster total time. I can see the reluctance with a 3 bladed prop but at one time hand propping was the only way to start engines, even very large engines so they would put a leather or cloth cup over the prop tip with a rope and have several people pull on the rope. I guess I would try to figure something to avoid such a long, expensive trip. Maybe even renting a starter from another airplane. How hard is it to pull that starter. It is going to have to come off in any case and maybe the Bendix drive could be cleaned up and lubed.
 
So I ordered a new Skytec 149NL starter and it is currently being shipped to the FBO at Winnemucca. There is an A&P up there who is going to install it for me and hopefully I can fly it back next week, if I can get time off from work.
 
Not to hijack the OP's thread (and I hope he updates it when the trouble is discovered), I but maybe somebody can shed light on my issue: O-290, had a trouble a few times with a weak battery. Cranks but not enough to start. When this happens, the bendix stays engaged, as I can hear when I try to hand prop it... but it creates too much drag to hand prop. I was also worried that if it did start, it would stay engaged and trash the starter. When this happened, some combination of bumping the start button or turning the prop forward or backward and it eventually disengaged so I could hand prop it. Normal? Isn't there a spring to help it disengage or is it just the spiral spline in the Bendix?
 
Dana said:
Not to hijack the OP's thread (and I hope he updates it when the trouble is discovered), I but maybe somebody can shed light on my issue: O-290, had a trouble a few times with a weak battery. Cranks but not enough to start. When this happens, the bendix stays engaged, as I can hear when I try to hand prop it... but it creates too much drag to hand prop. I was also worried that if it did start, it would stay engaged and trash the starter. When this happened, some combination of bumping the start button or turning the prop forward or backward and it eventually disengaged so I could hand prop it. Normal? Isn't there a spring to help it disengage or is it just the spiral spline in the Bendix?
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There are latches in that bendix to keep it engaged until the engine starts. Without them the bendix would disengage if one cylinder fired and the prop accelerated just enough to drive the starter gear back on its spiral and then it would keep spinning without doing anything. Some older cars were famous for that.

There should be a light spring on the shaft ahead of the bendix. It's to keep the bendix back out of the way. I once heard a tinkling noise in an airplane that taxiied in from a landing; that spring had broken and the gear was vibrating forward and contacting the flywheel teeth.
 
Snowmass said:
14.4 volts? Then this was done with jumper cables from a car with its engine at at fast idle? A battery only gives 12 volts.

Given the cost of round trip travel it seems like over night shipping from a supplier would be be cheaper and much faster total time. I can see the reluctance with a 3 bladed prop but at one time hand propping was the only way to start engines, even very large engines so they would put a leather or cloth cup over the prop tip with a rope and have several people pull on the rope. I guess I would try to figure something to avoid such a long, expensive trip. Maybe even renting a starter from another airplane. How hard is it to pull that starter. It is going to have to come off in any case and maybe the Bendix drive could be cleaned up and lubed.
Click to expand...
What I see in the photo tells me that some repairs are necessary. I would NOT handprop that engine with a suspected loose starter. Asking for much bigger trouble if the starter came off in flight.
 
Dan Thomas said:
What I see in the photo tells me that some repairs are necessary. I would NOT handprop that engine with a suspected loose starter. Asking for much bigger trouble if the starter came off in flight.
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If it were me I would have pulled the starter and tried to fix it. Many aircraft starters use automotive parts. My starter is Delco/GM. I have rebuilt many of them. Country boys can fix almost anything. It's a basic part of life.
 
Dan Thomas said:
What I see in the photo tells me that some repairs are necessary. I would NOT handprop that engine with a suspected loose starter. Asking for much bigger trouble if the starter came off in flight.
Click to expand...
How about just tightening the starter bolts if loose?
 
Snowmass said:
If it were me I would have pulled the starter and tried to fix it. Many aircraft starters use automotive parts. My starter is Delco/GM. I have rebuilt many of them. Country boys can fix almost anything. It's a basic part of life.
Click to expand...

Is that legal for a non-AP owner in certified land to do without access to a willing "signature lender"? Don't answer that I'm being rhetorical. I do agree with you though, it's about the only way to stay in this thing without throwing one's hands up in disgust at the cost structure opportunity cost to one's pedestrian consumer alternatives (home repair, car repair, steak dinner, hotel stay, kid's tuition, et al).
 
I imagine there must be an A&P near Winnemucca else how could his starter even be replaced? Personally, after majoring my engine twice I think I could handle tightening loose starter bolts. But overnighting a new/rebuilt starter in sounds a lot easier and cheaper than flying home and then returning. In fact at one time it was possible to get parts in a few hours via Greyhound or other bus service. Maybe it still is.
 
Snowmass said:
If it were me I would have pulled the starter and tried to fix it. Many aircraft starters use automotive parts. My starter is Delco/GM. I have rebuilt many of them. Country boys can fix almost anything. It's a basic part of life.
Click to expand...

I didnt really have time to do a thorough check on everything because I was running out of time. I had to get home for work the next day and that meant getting to Reno and jumping on a plane.
 
Understand but I guess I am more more indifferent about work. Had to get home and work? I have heard this so many times and then you get influenza and miss two weeks of work but the company, or whatever,seems to survive. OK, now we are into philosophy, I apologize.
 
Snowmass said:
Understand but I guess I am more more indifferent about work. Had to get home and work? I have heard this so many times and then you get influenza and miss two weeks of work but the company, or whatever,seems to survive. OK, now we are into philosophy, I apologize.
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Maybe his place of work isn’t as lackadaisical as yours?
 
Yes, read band of Brothers to see what happened to the men in Easy Company who were late when returning from leave.
 
Having to be somewhere and GA aircraft are often very dangerous combinations unless instrument current and, in my case, known ice equipped. I have definitely taken a lackadaisical attitude about life. In the long run we are all so unimportant. You will die soon. I guarntee it.
 
Snowmass said:
14.4 volts? Then this was done with jumper cables from a car with its engine at at fast idle? A battery only gives 12 volts.

Given the cost of round trip travel it seems like over night shipping from a supplier would be be cheaper and much faster total time. I can see the reluctance with a 3 bladed prop but at one time hand propping was the only way to start engines, even very large engines so they would put a leather or cloth cup over the prop tip with a rope and have several people pull on the rope. I guess I would try to figure something to avoid such a long, expensive trip. Maybe even renting a starter from another airplane. How hard is it to pull that starter. It is going to have to come off in any case and maybe the Bendix drive could be cleaned up and lubed.
Click to expand...
Well... Technically... A 12 volt battery, will be 12.7 to 13.2 depending on how long its been off the charger... Not that this adds anything to the conversation ;-)
 
So as a follow up, my mechanic in Northern NV just called to say he was able to swap out the old starter for the new Skytec that I had shipped to the FBO. Once installed he fired the plane up and said she started immediately. So there was something definitely wrong with the old starter.
 
You will like the Skytec. Spins the engine faster, easier starts. And probably 7 lbs more useful load?
 
Eric Lehto said:
Wish the guy would have told you what he found after removing the old starter. Just to satisfy curiosity
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Yes. How can anyone learn anything when they never get the answers to the questions they got wrong on the test?
 
Did the mechanic try to start the engine before he R&R the starter.??
 
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