Can I try this in a full motion flight simulator?

N918KT

N918KT

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I don't think my flight school has a full motion flight simulator like a Redbird FMX, but I always wanted to experience spatial disorientation in a full motion flight simulator, just to see what it feels like. I want to fly into IMC in the simulator (but of course would never in a real airplane).

I flown in the Redbird FMX before a few times, during an Aviation Explorers tour of a flight school, and also during an aviation college open house. However, I never flown a full motion flight simulator in IMC.

Have you guys flown in a full motion flight simulator in IMC just to experience spatial disorientation? Is it pretty close to the real thing?
 
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If you want it to be as realistic as possible Redbird won't do, you'll need to find a class D sim.

Why not do it in a real airplane? Just have a safety pilot with you, and I don't mean the safety pilot by FAA's definition, I mean a real safety pilot who will be looking at the attitude indicator and will be there for safety.
 
I'll bet you can get disoriented in that Redbird, but it isn't the same disorientation. You can't pull G's in a rotation-only simulator, and that's what really gets you going.

I second the idea of going up with a "real" safety pilot (possibly a CFI with acro experience, or even just a regular CFII -- I'm sure things like that happen in instrument training).
 
I'm just a student sport pilot with about 27 hours of dual instruction. I don't know if I feel comfortable in actual IMC as I never flown in actual IMC before. There are things where I would want to try in a sim that I would not want to try in real life. Do I even need actual IMC training for sport pilot? I heard sport pilot can't fly in IMC or IFR conditions.

Flying in IMC is interesting, but I don't think I'm ready for it yet.
 
N918KT said:
I'm just a student sport pilot with about 27 hours of dual instruction. I don't know if I feel comfortable in actual IMC as I never flown in actual IMC before. There are things where I would want to try in a sim that I would not want to try in real life. Do I even need actual IMC training for sport pilot? I heard sport pilot can't fly in IMC or IFR conditions.

Flying in IMC is interesting, but I don't think I'm ready for it yet.
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The point of simulated IMC training is to prepare you should you inadvertently get in to it. I don't have a sport pilot PTS handy but I'm pretty sure it's part of it.
 
N918KT said:
I don't think my flight school has a full motion flight simulator like a Redbird FMX, but I always wanted to experience spatial disorientation in a full motion flight simulator, just to see what it feels like. I want to fly into IMC in the simulator (but of course would never in a real airplane).

I flown in the Redbird FMX before a few times, during an Aviation Explorers tour of a flight school, and also during an aviation college open house. However, I never flown a full motion flight simulator in IMC.

Have you guys flown in a full motion flight simulator in IMC just to experience spatial disorientation? Is it pretty close to the real thing?
Click to expand...

Watch for the CAMI folks from OKC to come to your area with the PROTE (Portable Reduced Oxygen Training Environment) and conduct their seminar on high altitude training and being hypoxic. They often bring their spatial disorientation trainer with them.

A pretty interesting experience to get your inner ear presenting lots of crazy information while you're trying to aviate.

Oh, and the hypoxic training is also extremely interesting and valuable. The FAA actually owns up to getting you high.... for free!

gat_trainer1.jpg
 
CAMI has a spatial disorientation trainer? I did not know that. I heard that pilots who fly VFR into IMC has about 3 minutes to live once in the soup. I once saw a video that tells a pilot who flys VFR into IMC in a scary story fashion.
 
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I work on Military simulators for UPT. None of them are full motion and actually replaced older full motion sims. The one I work with has a 270 degree visual and the way the picture moves is a real it gets. We have people getting out of them walking down the hall leaning on the walls during a VFR trip. It’s actually comical. As far as IMC is concerned you don’t see anything but gray and even in the old full motion T-37 sims you never felt it that much. I think your best bet might be go with an instructor on an IMC day and feel it for real with the CFI on board., You know like a first Instrument flight training.
 
Sac Arrow said:
The point of simulated IMC training is to prepare you should you inadvertently get in to it. I don't have a sport pilot PTS handy but I'm pretty sure it's part of it.
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You don't need any actual IMC time, but you will get simulated instrument time. Basically, this means that you put on a hood or foggles so that you can only see the instrument panel. All view outside is blocked, as if you were in actual IMC. Your instructor will have you turn to headings, climb, descend, maybe do a few unusual attitudes. That's it for Sport. It's not on the checkride, but you're required to have training in it. Not much--last time I checked there wasn't a minimum number of hours--but definitely some.

Should you move to private, you have to have a minimum of three hours of simulated instrument time. You'll definitely do unusual attitudes in addition to the other schtuff, and it'll be on the checkride.
 
jpower said:
You don't need any actual IMC time, but you will get simulated instrument time. Basically, this means that you put on a hood or foggles so that you can only see the instrument panel. All view outside is blocked, as if you were in actual IMC. Your instructor will have you turn to headings, climb, descend, maybe do a few unusual attitudes. That's it for Sport. It's not on the checkride, but you're required to have training in it. Not much--last time I checked there wasn't a minimum number of hours--but definitely some.

Should you move to private, you have to have a minimum of three hours of simulated instrument time. You'll definitely do unusual attitudes in addition to the other schtuff, and it'll be on the checkride.
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Thanks for the explanation James. Does the simulated instrument time have to be in an IFR aircraft? Can I do it in a VFR 152 or Skycatcher?

Also, for instrument rated pilots, when they fly in actual IMC do they also have to put on a hood or foggles just like they do in simulated instrument conditions?
 
N918KT said:
CAMI has a spatial disorientation trainer? I did not know that. I heard that pilots who fly VFR into IMC has about 3 minutes to live once in the soup. I once saw a video that tells a pilot who flys VFR into IMC in a scary story fashion.
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It's actually a fancy version of a Bárány chair. The rotation is setup so that eventually the fluid and sensing hairs eventually get used to the constant rotation, so you no longer sense the rotation.

But then they ask you to do tasks like reach down below the seat to retrieve a pencil, turn your head and look up at a spot on the roof of the "aircraft", and other tasks that really cause an upset.
 
N918KT said:
Thanks for the explanation James. Does the simulated instrument time have to be in an IFR aircraft? Can I do it in a VFR 152 or Skycatcher?
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Simulated can be in VFR conditions when you are wearing a view limiting device (foggles). But have a rated pilot in the rh seat to help with the see and avoid.

Also, for instrument rated pilots, when they fly in actual IMC do they also have to put on a hood or foggles just like they do in simulated instrument conditions?
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Flying in IMC conditions, no view limiting device required. The view is already limited.
 
One of the best things I've done since getting my private ticket was to grab my CFII and get 1.2 of actual IMC. It was 800 OVC and raining with another overcast layer above. About 20 minutes in, I could definitely feel the onset of spatial disorientation. Stayed focused on the instruments and fought through it. There's some video of it on the YouTube if you're interested.
 
Flying_Nun said:
One of the best things I've done since getting my private ticket was to grab my CFII and get 1.2 of actual IMC. It was 800 OVC and raining with another overcast layer above. About 20 minutes in, I could definitely feel the onset of spatial disorientation. Stayed focused on the instruments and fought through it. There's some video of it on the YouTube if you're interested.
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Cool! Please show me the videos, I'm interested in seeing it!
 
N918KT said:
I don't think my flight school has a full motion flight simulator like a Redbird FMX, but I always wanted to experience spatial disorientation in a full motion flight simulator, just to see what it feels like. I want to fly into IMC in the simulator (but of course would never in a real airplane).

I flown in the Redbird FMX before a few times, during an Aviation Explorers tour of a flight school, and also during an aviation college open house. However, I never flown a full motion flight simulator in IMC.

Have you guys flown in a full motion flight simulator in IMC just to experience spatial disorientation? Is it pretty close to the real thing?
Click to expand...

A group of us IFR students thought about doing it more realistically it in a cheaper flight sim by first being spun around in a roller chair about a dozen turns then going on the sim with a view limiting hood on.

Opted to just go up really flying in an Aerobat and do spin recoveries and unusual attitude recoveries under the hood with a CFII for 30 minutes.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Watch for the CAMI folks from OKC to come to your area with the PROTE (Portable Reduced Oxygen Training Environment) and conduct their seminar on high altitude training and being hypoxic. They often bring their spatial disorientation trainer with them.

A pretty interesting experience to get your inner ear presenting lots of crazy information while you're trying to aviate.

Oh, and the hypoxic training is also extremely interesting and valuable. The FAA actually owns up to getting you high.... for free!

gat_trainer1.jpg
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According to this: http://www.faa.gov/pilots/safety/pilotsafetybrochures/media/physiologc.pdf you need a medical for the altitude chamber portion.

George
 
MachFly said:
If you like those, this guy's got a whole bunch of them in various conditions.

http://www.youtube.com/user/wolfala/videos?view=0
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Thanks for the link, but there are some IMC videos which are over an hour long. Don't think I would have time to spend an hour watching one long video. Don't worry, I can find some IMC videos myself on Youtube which are shorter.

I did see a 3-part video of a Youtuber FSX404 flying a Cessna around Hawthorne in IMC conditions in Microsoft Flight Simulator. To add to the drama, he failed the vacuum so the attitude indicator and heading indicator will not work. He has to land with the vacuum failure in IMC into Hawthorne Airport.

Here it is!
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsOTIYX0M9U

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qN0HgLDYSU

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OHORBa_6GE

Enjoy guys!
 
N918KT said:
Thanks for the explanation James. Does the simulated instrument time have to be in an IFR aircraft? Can I do it in a VFR 152 or Skycatcher?

Also, for instrument rated pilots, when they fly in actual IMC do they also have to put on a hood or foggles just like they do in simulated instrument conditions?
Click to expand...

As said above, all the simulated time will be in whatever you're flying already, whether it's IFR certified or not. It's just to show you what happens when you fly into a cloud, what to expect to feel (for example, you might feel like you're turning when you're really not), and how to get yourself out of the situation.

AggieMike88 said:
Unusual attitude training was fun.
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Yup! I did really like it :).
 
On my IFR checkride I got a disorientation like you wouldn't believe. Unlike my previous experience where an instructor tells you to close your eyes and put your head down while he puts the plane through various manouvers prior to turning it back to you in an unusual attitude, the examiner told me to shut my eyes and then told me to execute a few maneuvers with my eyes closed. After a few minutes of this I got real nervous not having any clue what attitude I had the plane in. Then told to open my eyes and recover.
 
flyingron said:
..... After a few minutes of this I got real nervous not having any clue what attitude I had the plane in. Then told to open my eyes and recover.
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A few minutes with your eyes shut..:dunno:..

I am impressed you made it past 30 seconds....
 
AggieMike88 said:
Watch for the CAMI folks from OKC to come to your area with the PROTE (Portable Reduced Oxygen Training Environment) and conduct their seminar on high altitude training and being hypoxic. They often bring their spatial disorientation trainer with them.

A pretty interesting experience to get your inner ear presenting lots of crazy information while you're trying to aviate.

Oh, and the hypoxic training is also extremely interesting and valuable. The FAA actually owns up to getting you high.... for free!

gat_trainer1.jpg
Click to expand...
I "flew" that thing at OKC. It rotates (yaws) with a very high turn rate (something like 20-30 RPM) compared to what's shown on the instruments inside the cockpit. When you tilt your head (e.g. to pick up a pencil from the floor) your internal gyros tumble dramatically. Some guys actually threw up or at least turned green. But if you just ignore the fact that your head feels like you're spinning wildly and fly the instruments it's "survivable".
 
We get guys disoriented in the FMXs all the time. It's a bit disconcerting knowing that if it was real instead of a sim they would have killed themselves.
 
I never got disoriented in IR training or the checkride, but I came very close to it once in IMC when I picked up ice. I tried dive bombing to get below the freezing level - bad idea. I almost lost it and literally had to use my IR unusual attitude recovery procedures to stabilize the plane.
 
Thought I bring this thread back up because last summer when I was training at Queen City Airport, on one of the days it was cloudy and it was raining lightly. I was preflighting the LSA and when I was done preflighting, I went to the FBO to check the weather. Conditions were overcast and light rain, but it was still VFR conditions.

I told my CFI that I wasn't comfortable with the weather, even after I did my preflight. I told him that we should cancel the lesson for that day, and he agreed.

Looking back on that day, I thought to myself saying that that would be a good chance to fly in poor weather and maybe IMC with a CFI, just to see what it is like to fly in IMC. Of course I am not so sure if my CFI is an Instrument Instructor as well.

But let's say that my CFI is also a CFII, would you pass up a chance to fly in IFR conditions during sport or private pilot training?

Thought I passed up a good chance to experience flying in IMC with a CFI several months back.
 
Going up with a CFII into actual is a good idea on a fall or spring day when the IMC is warm smooth air. Just brings home the fact that the airplane flies in clouds just fine, and the view on top is awesome.
 
As long as there is no ice in the clouds flying in IMC is interesting. Trusting instruments is key to the whole thing. :) I was glad my CFII was there when I was a little disoriented and well banked the plane at 60 degrees when he said turn. Oy!
 
Sac Arrow said:
The point of simulated IM training is to prepare you should you inadvertently get in to it. I don't have a sport pilot PTS handy but I'm pretty sure it's part of it.
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It's not. The private requires 3 hours, but all that is required for the Sport is a little bit of hood time prior the solo cross country as outlined in 61.93 (e)(12). I bet you this one is commonly overlooked since it's not listed as a Sport Pilot requirement, but rather a student pilot requirement.
 
N918KT said:
I don't think my flight school has a full motion flight simulator like a Redbird FMX, but I always wanted to experience spatial disorientation in a full motion flight simulator, just to see what it feels like. I want to fly into IMC in the simulator (but of course would never in a real airplane).

I flown in the Redbird FMX before a few times, during an Aviation Explorers tour of a flight school, and also during an aviation college open house. However, I never flown a full motion flight simulator in IMC.

Have you guys flown in a full motion flight simulator in IMC just to experience spatial disorientation? Is it pretty close to the real thing?
Click to expand...


The redbirds are a joke.

It's just MS flight sim in a not so fancy box.

Want to do it on the cheap, go take a few shots of jack, turn all the lights off and try it in MS flight sim, bout the same experience.


OR, just go up in a little C150 with a CFI and do the real thing.
 
N918KT said:
Thought I bring this thread back up because last summer when I was training at Queen City Airport, on one of the days it was cloudy and it was raining lightly. I was preflighting the LSA and when I was done preflighting, I went to the FBO to check the weather. Conditions were overcast and light rain, but it was still VFR conditions.

I told my CFI that I wasn't comfortable with the weather, even after I did my preflight. I told him that we should cancel the lesson for that day, and he agreed.

Looking back on that day, I thought to myself saying that that would be a good chance to fly in poor weather and maybe IMC with a CFI, just to see what it is like to fly in IMC. Of course I am not so sure if my CFI is an Instrument Instructor as well.

But let's say that my CFI is also a CFII, would you pass up a chance to fly in IFR conditions during sport or private pilot training?

Thought I passed up a good chance to experience flying in IMC with a CFI several months back.
Click to expand...


Even if he wasn't a II he can still take you up in IMC, just make sure (CFI or II) he's a current and capable instrument pilot.
 
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