Can I log instrument time ?

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IlyaK18

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IlyaK18
Hello, I receive different answers from everyone I have asked so far, so hoping to settle this here.

I am a private pilot,

1 ) If I fly with foggles with a instrument rated pilot next to me who is NOT a CFI. Can I log simulated IFR time ?

2) If I fly through actual clouds with a Instrument rated pilot next to me who is NOT a CFI. Can I log any instrument time ? How do I log it if it is not simulated, if I log is actual IFR , I cant log PIC because can I really be PIC in actual conditions without a Instrument rating ?

I know it sounds confusing but if someone here can untangle this a bit for me I would really appreciate it.

Thank you !!!
 
It's not confusing if you make a simple mental adjustment - that acting as PIC is not a requirement for logging PIC. All that is required for logging PIC as sole manipulator of the controls is the appropriate aircraft rating. That's because you fit comfortably into one or more of the nice 61.51 "boxes" for logging time the FAA kindly set up for us. The "different" answer you have received have been nothing more than people not understanding how it works (and how it has worked for more than 30 years).

So, yes, in both of those situations, you may log PIC and you may log both the foggled and "actual" fights as instrument time because (to keep it simple) that what they were.

To untangle it for your self, read 61.51. You may still have a question or two after reading it but it's really not that difficult and reading 61.51 is the very best start to understanding 61.51
 
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1) Yes
2) If you're on an IFR flight plan (with the other pilot as legal PIC presumably), yes, you can log it as PIC
 
You can log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated. It matters not the condition of flight or who's in the right seat. You may log instrument time when you are flying by reference to instruments either in simulated (under the hood) or actual (in clouds or poor visibility that requires you to fly on instruments) instrument conditions.

Now the next question how ever, is it LEGAL for you to conduct that flight (even before you worry about logging it).

In case #1, as long as the person in the right seat is legal to be a safety pilot (has a category and class rating and a medical) and performs that role, it's legal.

In case #2, the person in the right seat had better:
1. Be Pilot In Command.
2. Have an instrument rating and be current.
3. Be operating on an IFR clearance (in controlled airspace).

It's generally ill-advised for someone who is trying to learn to fly instruments to be up there flying with a non-instructor. You pick up bad habits.
 
Much of instrument training can be done this way, though it's not common. 40 hours simulated or actual IMC is required for the rating, but only 15 hours has to be with an instructor.

For practical reasons, it takes a lot more than 15 hours, but those are the rules.

Using a simulator requires an instructor, and the instructor must accompany the cross country. It's also real helpful if an instructor introduces you to everything, but you can practice with a safety pilot. Preferably a current, proficient, instrument rated safety pilot who can be a real hard-***.
 
I know of one safety pilot who only becomes a hard-*** when the flight is conducted under IFR, so that it's his ticket on the line. :D
 
flyingron said:
You can log PIC any time you are the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated. It matters not the condition of flight or who's in the right seat. You may log instrument time when you are flying by reference to instruments either in simulated (under the hood) or actual (in clouds or poor visibility that requires you to fly on instruments) instrument conditions.

Now the next question how ever, is it LEGAL for you to conduct that flight (even before you worry about logging it).

In case #1, as long as the person in the right seat is legal to be a safety pilot (has a category and class rating and a medical) and performs that role, it's legal.

In case #2, the person in the right seat had better:
1. Be Pilot In Command.
2. Have an instrument rating and be current.
3. Be operating on an IFR clearance (in controlled airspace).

It's generally ill-advised for someone who is trying to learn to fly instruments to be up there flying with a non-instructor. You pick up bad habits.
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It is possible in Alaska (and other places) to be so dark there are just no outside references (horizon, ground lights, moon, stars) so I am on instruments to maintain straight and level flight. Therefore since I am in class G, VFR in the clear and flying completely by reference to instruments then that flight time cannot be logged as instrument time. Even though the visibility is 10+ miles, there is no visible outside references.

Not trying to nit pick or argue, just wondering your thoughts.

EDIT: I re-read your answer and realized you were talking about controlled airspace, not class G. My reply deals with class G and I changed my reply to reflect that.
 
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It doesn't matter if it is class G or not. Class G doesn't make it legal to fly VFR in IMC. It just says you don't need a clearance. You still must follow the rules of IFR (rated, equipped, current, minimum altitudes, etc...).

In controlled airspace or not, there are conditions where the weather is LEGAL VFR but sufficiently bad that you can't get a decent horizon and hence have to fly on instruments. The FAA has held that meets the definition of "actual instrument conditions" even if you are flying VFR. I've gone out and shot approaches on moonless, hazy nights solo and legitimately called it instrument conditions.
 
Zeldman said:
It is possible in Alaska (and other places) to be so dark there are just no outside references (horizon, ground lights, moon, stars) so I am on instruments to maintain straight and level flight. Therefore since I am in class G, VFR in the clear and flying completely by reference to instruments then that flight time cannot be logged as instrument time. Even though the visibility is 10+ miles, there is no visible outside references.

Not trying to nit pick or argue, just wondering your thoughts.

EDIT: I re-read your answer and realized you were talking about controlled airspace, not class G. My reply deals with class G and I changed my reply to reflect that.
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There is an old FAA Chief Counsel opinion cited often here in these discussion that indicate instrument time may be logged on a "moonless night" with no discernible horizon as an example of VFR conditions which nevertheless permit logging actual instrument time. The test for "actual" is whether there is some condition outside the cockpit that requires the pilot to use the instruments to retail control - remain right side up, not whether those conditions are cause by clouds and other weather.
 
MAKG1 said:
Much of instrument training can be done this way, though it's not common. 40 hours simulated or actual IMC is required for the rating, but only 15 hours has to be with an instructor.

For practical reasons, it takes a lot more than 15 hours, but those are the rules.

Using a simulator requires an instructor, and the instructor must accompany the cross country. It's also real helpful if an instructor introduces you to everything, but you can practice with a safety pilot. Preferably a current, proficient, instrument rated safety pilot who can be a real hard-***.
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Yeah...it's amazing that the PPL required at least 20 of dual, but the IRA only 15 hours with a CFII. Sure, you could spend 15 hours with a CFII, but I don't think you'd ever get a sign off. You can develop an awful lot of bad habits just flying with someone under the hood practicing with just a safety pilot, whether rated or not. I fly 30 hours with all my accelerated students...and most all of them are now regularly flying IFR missions.
 
SbestCFII said:
...You can develop an awful lot of bad habits just flying with someone under the hood practicing with just a safety pilot, whether rated or not...
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Probably true. For example, when I act as safety pilot, if the approaches are being flown under visual flight rules, I don't closely monitor whether the pilot is flying within tolerances, because I consider it more important to be watching for traffic, terrain, and other obstacles.
 
It's important to watch for traffic and if not on an IFR clearance, clouds.

While it's not an official duty, self preservation says don't let him fly you into terrain or nasty airspace, but frankly if a person needs a second pilot to keep him from doing those things, that second pilot probably should be an instructor.
 
There is more to it than that.

A new instrument student is likely to experience disorientation if he's being honest and doesn't peek, and the safety pilot may need to help.

I experienced a strong illusion once starting the missed approach at Livermore. I crammed the throttle way too fast and became convinced I had my nose in the air. I was actually flying level at 200 AGL. It took several seconds for me to figure it out and really believe my AI (which said straight and level) and my ASI (which was quite a bit faster than approach or climb speed and definitely not decaying). My instructor was in the right seat. He didn't take the controls, but did ask what the hell I was doing.
 
MAKG1 said:
A new instrument student is likely to experience disorientation if he's being honest and doesn't peek, and the safety pilot may need to help.
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Again, if the pilot needs someone in the right seat to keep the dirty side down, then the person probably needs to be an instructor.

I got my first real taste of actual that way. I was flying left seat up at 16,000 coming back from my first Oshkosh with Paul Bertorelli in the right seat. I hadn't done other than the most perfunctory of instrument training at that point and flew into the closing sucker hole. Paul says "Don't lose it on me" which was my cue to stop looking out into the murk and start flying instruments, which I think I did pretty good. We also oddly enough picked up ice which surprised the hell out of me.
 
flyingron said:
It's important to watch for traffic and if not on an IFR clearance, clouds.
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Yeah, I forgot to mention keeping the pilot out of clouds while VFR. I do that too.

While it's not an official duty, self preservation says don't let him fly you into terrain or nasty airspace, but frankly if a person needs a second pilot to keep him from doing those things, that second pilot probably should be an instructor.
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I bring VFR charts when I serve as a safety pilot, so that I will be aware of any hazards that I can't see out the window.

One night in the 1990s, a couple of Ameriflight guys here got vectored into the side of a mountain while doing instrument currency work, so I take the terrain avoidance responsibilities of the safety pilot very seriously. In that accident, I think both the pilot under the hood and the safety pilot were instructors.
 
flyingron said:
Again, if the pilot needs someone in the right seat to keep the dirty side down, then the person probably needs to be an instructor.
Click to expand...

That reminds me, the last time I acted as safety pilot, I forgot to brief the transfer of control protocol with the pilot who was going to be under the hood.
 
Palmpilot said:
I bring VFR charts when I serve as a safety pilot, so that I will be aware of any hazards that I can't see out the window.
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I do that too, but mainly for airspace avoidance and for giving vectors.

Operating out of Reid, sitting right seat in a non-GPS aircraft, I have to keep the pilot both away from the mountains and away from the SJC extended centerline (I insist on flight following, so the Class C is legal, but it's disruptive).
 
Palmpilot said:
That reminds me, the last time I acted as safety pilot, I forgot to brief the transfer of control protocol with the pilot who was going to be under the hood.
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Was that me? I thought we did discuss that. Usually, I'm a stickler for the three-way handshake.
 
MAKG1 said:
That works when you have your psychic endorsement, not before.

Do you plan your disorientations?
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The time I recall getting seriously disoriented, it was a good VFR night over southern Arizona. I had been instrument rated for about twenty years. When I looked up from whatever I was doing, as soon as I realized that my mind was not making sense of what I was seeing out the window, I focused on the instruments, and forced myself to obey them instead of what my mind thought was happening.
 
MAKG1 said:
Was that me? I thought we did discuss that. Usually, I'm a stickler for the three-way handshake.
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Yes. My recollection is that we forgot to do it.
 
MAKG1 said:
That works when you have your psychic endorsement, not before.

Do you plan your disorientations?
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Nope, but I haven't been disoriented to the point of needing someone to bail me out EVER. And as a safety pilot, I tend not to fly with such pilots either. If a pilot I'm safety piloting for loses it under the hood, that will be the end of the practice for the day as far as I am concerned.
 
Palmpilot said:
I bring VFR charts when I serve as a safety pilot, so that I will be aware of any hazards that I can't see out the window.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't hurt. Around here between class B, SFRA and R-areas, I like to know where I am in case (and I've had this happen) someone gets real screwed up on their approach. But that doesn't change my opinion. If you're skills are so lousy that you get lost on an approach and are about to bust airspace or terrain, or you can't maintain control of the aircraft, you really ought to be flying with an instructor not a safety pilot.
 
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