Can I file and fly IFR without the rating?

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
OK...I am 2 weeks away from my IFR checkride and I should know the answer to this, but my buddy says I'm wrong.

He says if he's in the right seat, I can file and fly IFR without a ticket because he's IFR rated and current.

I say that until I have my ticket, I can only fly practice approaches with him as a safety pilot, and then only in VFR conditions with "separation services not provided" by ATC.

Who's right?
 
Zeldman said:
I concur.

You can file and fly, but his name would have to be on the flight plan, and he would be PIC.
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OK...but then we have an insurance issue, as he doesn't have the quals to be on my insurance and he doesn't have anything other than renters. Oh well...
 
VWGhiaBob said:
OK...but then we have an insurance issue, as he doesn't have the quals to be on my insurance and he doesn't have anything other than renters. Oh well...
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That's entirely a whole 'nother thingy.
 
Zeldman said:
I concur.

You can file and fly, but his name would have to be on the flight plan, and he would be PIC.
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Based on the AOPA review of PIC it sounds like the op could log the PIC and his friend couldn't. Not sure I quite follow why that would be though if the friend is acting and/or legal PIC.

"Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B on a cross-country flight in a single-engine, high-performance aircraft. Pilot A is rated for the aircraft but is not instrument rated or endorsed to fly high-performance aircraft and does not have a current medical certificate or flight review. Pilot A will be flying by reference to instruments during actual instrument conditions. Pilot B is legal to act as PIC and has agreed to be the PIC. Under these circumstances, Pilot A may log PIC and actual instrument time (although Pilot A should be prepared to explain to an FAA inspector why PIC time was logged while in actual instrument conditions, when he/she was not instrument rated). Pilot B cannot log PIC as he/she is not the sole manipulator of the flight controls and cannot log instrument time because he/she was not flying the aircraft by reference to instruments (Far 61.51)."
 
Skid said:
Based on the AOPA review of PIC it sounds like the op could log the PIC and his friend couldn't. Not sure I quite follow why that would be though if the friend is acting and/or legal PIC.

"Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B on a cross-country flight in a single-engine, high-performance aircraft. Pilot A is rated for the aircraft but is not instrument rated or endorsed to fly high-performance aircraft and does not have a current medical certificate or flight review. Pilot A will be flying by reference to instruments during actual instrument conditions. Pilot B is legal to act as PIC and has agreed to be the PIC. Under these circumstances, Pilot A may log PIC and actual instrument time (although Pilot A should be prepared to explain to an FAA inspector why PIC time was logged while in actual instrument conditions, when he/she was not instrument rated). Pilot B cannot log PIC as he/she is not the sole manipulator of the flight controls and cannot log instrument time because he/she was not flying the aircraft by reference to instruments (Far 61.51)."
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Out of the clouds the safety pilot can log, as more than one pilot is required. In the clouds, he can't.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
OK...I am 2 weeks away from my IFR checkride and I should know the answer to this, but my buddy says I'm wrong.

He says if he's in the right seat, I can file and fly IFR without a ticket because he's IFR rated and current.
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Since you are close to your Instrument checkride, let's refer to the regulations which govern IFR flight and are, in fact, THE Instrument Flight Rules. 14 CFR 91.167-91.199.

§91.169 IFR flight plan: Information required.
(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person filing an IFR flight plan must include in it the following information:
(1) Information required under §91.153 (a) of this part;​

So that refers us to 91.153(a) which includes,

§91.153 VFR flight plan: Information required.
(a) Information required. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each person filing a VFR flight plan shall include in it the following information:
(3) The full name and address of the pilot in command or, in the case of a formation flight, the formation commander.​

Are you qualified to act as PIC of a flight under IFR? The answer to that is found in 14 CFR 61.

§61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
​


 
You can do anything you want but the Administrator is not going to cut you any slack during the trial.
 
You can "do" anything. Are you legal - the answer is no.

I would also suggest you read your insurance policy carefully. Very carefully.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
OK...I am 2 weeks away from my IFR checkride and I should know the answer to this, but my buddy says I'm wrong.

He says if he's in the right seat, I can file and fly IFR without a ticket because he's IFR rated and current.

I say that until I have my ticket, I can only fly practice approaches with him as a safety pilot, and then only in VFR conditions with "separation services not provided" by ATC.

Who's right?
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As others already said, if your friend is willing and able to act as pilot in command, accepting responsibility for the flight and his name is listed as PIC on the filing, he's right.

Correcting a common error: Being the pilot in command is not limited to the left seat of an airplane, unless the aircraft limitations say so.
 
midlifeflyer said:
As others already said, if your friend is willing and able to act as pilot in command, accepting responsibility for the flight and his name is listed as PIC on the filing, he's right.

Correcting a common error: Being the pilot in command is not limited to the left seat of an airplane, unless the aircraft limitations say so.
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But again, your insurance coverage may limit right seat pic
 
Skid said:
Not sure I quite follow why that would be though if the friend is acting and/or legal PIC.
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Because acting is not logging.

The person wiggling the stick logs. The person acting and/or legal PIC without wiggling does not.
 
The non-rated pilot with IR pilot sitting in the other seat could be the one to call in for a pop-up. That's pretty routine.
 
SkyHog said:
What if you stay VMC the whole time?
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You’re still under IFR and you can not accept the clearance. See Larry’s post.

61.3 Requirement for certificates, ratings, and authorizations.
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
 
Wow. There's an aspect here that concerns me:

OP, are you nearing completion of your IR without ever having flown under IFR with ATC handling you? If so, IMO this is a huge hole in your education -- big enough to say that you will not be qualified to fly IFR even if you pass your checkride. It also implies that you have never flown in a cloud --- another huge hole IMO.
 
airdale said:
Wow. There's an aspect here that concerns me:

OP, are you nearing completion of your IR without ever having flown under IFR with ATC handling you? If so, IMO this is a huge hole in your education -- big enough to say that you will not be qualified to fly IFR even if you pass your checkride. It also implies that you have never flown in a cloud --- another huge hole IMO.
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How did you conclude all that from his post?
 
jordane93 said:
How did you conclude all that from his post?
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Well, hopefully I'm wrong, but if he has this question about a rated and current "buddy" it seemed to me that the question would also apply to a rated and current CFII and hence he should already know the answer. There is nothing AFIK about a CFII that gives any special privileges re filing and flying under IFR versus any other "buddy."
 
Skid said:
Based on the AOPA review of PIC it sounds like the op could log the PIC and his friend couldn't. Not sure I quite follow why that would be though if the friend is acting and/or legal PIC.

"Pilot A wishes to fly with Pilot B on a cross-country flight in a single-engine, high-performance aircraft. Pilot A is rated for the aircraft but is not instrument rated or endorsed to fly high-performance aircraft and does not have a current medical certificate or flight review. Pilot A will be flying by reference to instruments during actual instrument conditions. Pilot B is legal to act as PIC and has agreed to be the PIC. Under these circumstances, Pilot A may log PIC and actual instrument time (although Pilot A should be prepared to explain to an FAA inspector why PIC time was logged while in actual instrument conditions, when he/she was not instrument rated). Pilot B cannot log PIC as he/she is not the sole manipulator of the flight controls and cannot log instrument time because he/she was not flying the aircraft by reference to instruments (Far 61.51)."
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Here's task for you: Read 61.51(e) - the reg which gives the whole universe of when one may log PIC time. In order to log PIC time, one must fit into one of the boxes it sets out. Into which one would you say the right seat PIC in our scenario fits?

Hint: You won't find anything 61.51 that says anytime one acts as PIC he or she can log PIC. There is always a condition.
 
If you could file and fly IFR without the rating...than what would be the point of the rating?
 
SkyHog said:
What if you stay VMC the whole time?
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A non IR pilot could do practice approaches (with safety pilot) as PIC. But, that's also not operating under an instrument clearance.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
If you could file and fly IFR without the rating...than what would be the point of the rating?
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It's like that line in Tweeter and the Monkey Man....'in Jersey anything' legal as long as you don't get caught'

Unfortunately there are plenty of dudes flying out there in the IFR system without an IR. They do it because they get away with it.

It's not until they have an accident/incident that anyone finds out they were doing it wrong.

The system isn't going to flag you if a pilot files an IFR flight plan without an IR. Doesn't make it right, but you aren't going to get caught unless you do something else wrong.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Unfortunately there are plenty of dudes flying out there in the IFR system without an IR. They do it because they get away with it..
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And plenty that don't even have any kind of certificate, many of which own an airplane too.
 
Nah, seen it with my eyes matey, and the ones Fearless mentioned too.

th
 
VWGhiaBob said:
OK...I am 2 weeks away from my IFR checkride and I should know the answer to this, but my buddy says I'm wrong.

He says if he's in the right seat, I can file and fly IFR without a ticket because he's IFR rated and current.

I say that until I have my ticket, I can only fly practice approaches with him as a safety pilot, and then only in VFR conditions with "separation services not provided" by ATC.

Who's right?
Click to expand...

You can definitely file, and if he’s acting PIC, you can also work the radios and “accept” the clearance. He’s the acting PIC, you are just helping him out. He’s responsible if you read back something incorrect, flew the wrong approach, etc.

In the airlines and charter, dispatchers who are non pilots file IFR all the time. It doesn’t make a difference who files it. The person who accepts the clearance is what really matters.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It's like that line in Tweeter and the Monkey Man....'in Jersey anything' legal as long as you don't get caught'

Unfortunately there are plenty of dudes flying out there in the IFR system without an IR. They do it because they get away with it.

It's not until they have an accident/incident that anyone finds out they were doing it wrong.

The system isn't going to flag you if a pilot files an IFR flight plan without an IR. Doesn't make it right, but you aren't going to get caught unless you do something else wrong.
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Yep. I ran into someone like that at the flight school where I finished up my PPL, back when I was still renting Skyhawks. He was an instrument student, close to the checkride, who wanted experience flying by himself in the system without an instructor. Said he only did it on CAVU days. I shook my head to myself but said nothing. It was between him and the FAA as far as I was concerned, he knew perfectly well that it wasn't legal but also that his chances of getting caught were very small, and he'd soon be able to do it legally anyway. I always thought that argument worked better the other way though...
 
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