timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
It doesn't matter and what if it did.
Can I ferry a friends plane?
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Everskyward
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Everskyward
Private pilot A and private pilot B go flying in A's airplane. A is the pilot who "signed for the airplane" 
. A lets B fly for a while. B logs some of that "fake PIC time" . A does not ask for any money from B. Is what B did "illegal"? B got some "compensation" (time logged) without paying for it. 
. A lets B fly for a while. B logs some of that "fake PIC time" . A does not ask for any money from B. Is what B did "illegal"? B got some "compensation" (time logged) without paying for it. 
Private pilot A and private pilot B go flying in A's airplane. A is the pilot who "signed for the airplane"
This is the problem with "Rule of Law" in a society.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Nah. Unenforced and unenforceable laws are way better than forced approval to do things by actual tyrants.
Think about it. An unenforceable law makes the politician look like they "did something" for the screaming brain-cell challenged vocal minority, while they know full well nobody will pay any attention to it.
If the vocal minority demands that some bureaucrat starts reviewing every planned flight for legality and appropriateness, now THAT would be a societal problem.
There isn't a single firearms store in Colorado that still isn't selling high capacity magazines. They might disassemble them and say they're selling you "repair parts" and what you do with those parts after you leave the store is your problem, but not a single sale has been thwarted by "the rule of Law". Bloomberg is just $12M lighter in the wallet is all.
(Not trying to SZ the thread. It's simply an example of how "the rule of Law" when pushed to silliness, can't do a dang thing without enforcement.)
Mari jokes about "cooperate to graduate" silliness stuff at times and it always makes me chuckle because it's true. There's also a corollary to that phrase. "If you're going to break the rules, keep your mouth shut."
denverpilot
Tied Down
Really? So you'll get away with murder just because there is a law against littering? Great logic there.
That's the most idiotic interpretation of something I have ever heard, congratulations. BTW, people get away with murder every day, the law has no effect on that, nor does it have any affect on the murdered person whether their murderer is caught or not. The law is completely ineffective, it's just there to make people believe they are safe. Our entire society is based on lie on top of lie on top of lie because people would rather delude themselves than be honest with themselves about death. The fear of death is what the entire power base of the world is built upon be it religious or secular law.
You can't legislate people into doing or thinking something, they have to chose to. Rather than making laws that are unenforceable, asking people to follow some basic guidelines to achieve a social order would be more effective. People being asked to do something are much more prone to actually do it. When you tell people to do something, they are much more likely to resist.
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RotorAndWing
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poadeleted20
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Doesn't matter -- it's still against the regulations. There may not be Inspectors at every airport checking for this, you may be a better pilot than half the ATP's out there, you may be healthier with your Third Class than anyone with a First Class -- that's all completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not it's legal (and it's not).
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
I called my insurance agent today and asked her about this since my policy is up for renewal next month.
Me: "is it possible that, since all three of these pilots are commercial, CFIs, etc, that having them named as add'l insured could lower my rates? Here's what SGOTI said (blah...blah...blah)."
She just laughed and said that she wanted some of what SGOTI was smoking.
Me: "well he is known to regularly blow smoke out his ass."
She: "apparently."
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
I am only personally aware of six airplanes that were flown to new destinations by others. All were higher time pilots doing the moving , two were retired airline pilots. All charged for their services and those who were not retired airline, were reimbursed for their ticket home. Buyer also paid for motel if applicable. All pilots were insured by sellers , added to their insurance for the trip. All this was done with no fanfare, quietly, and all worked out well, everybody happy. I'm sure this happens with regularity.
If you are all already bottom rate pilots, that's correct since you're already bottom rate. The owner in this case is a student pilot still, makes the actuarial equation different.
retailguy
Line Up and Wait
I know you did this purposely. You're the guy at the family reunion spreading rumor too I'll bet.
These poor guys can't help it, I believe they were born this way....
I'm going to go fly, and then come back here and they'll still be talking. and. not. flying.
jwbruce
Filing Flight Plan
Great entertainment reading these posts. As I read them, a question dawned on me. So here goes and I hijack the thread.....
I take my plane out to shoot some practice approaches in VMC. My pilot friend, a PP, goes along to look out the windscreen while I'm wearing the foggles. We were all taught that we both get to log PIC. Me for being the sole manipulator of the controls, him for being responsible for safety of the (VFR) flight. I pay for the gas.
What's his common purpose? Doesn't he get "compensated" with that valuable flight time the FAA has defined in their legal opinions? Can a PP legally fly as a safety pilot if he logs the PIC time?
I take my plane out to shoot some practice approaches in VMC. My pilot friend, a PP, goes along to look out the windscreen while I'm wearing the foggles. We were all taught that we both get to log PIC. Me for being the sole manipulator of the controls, him for being responsible for safety of the (VFR) flight. I pay for the gas.
What's his common purpose? Doesn't he get "compensated" with that valuable flight time the FAA has defined in their legal opinions? Can a PP legally fly as a safety pilot if he logs the PIC time?
red4golf
Line Up and Wait
Yes because he is a required crew member while you are under the hood.
Kritchlow
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But I understand what his point is... He is logging time without having to pay for expense of the flight. Much like the OP who also is a required crew member.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
I think that situation was discussed in this thread a few pages back.
poadeleted20
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Unless the two of you have agreed in advance that your pal (and not you) will be the PIC, your pal doesn't get to log PIC time, only SIC time. You can certainly delegate the task of visual scanning outside to your pal, but you remain the final authority responsible for the operation of the aircraft, and only you get to log PIC time. OTOH, if you two do agree that your pal will be PIC, then your pal becomes the final authority, and you have to do what ever your pal says, including ceding control of the aircraft at any time your pal says "I have the controls". But on the third hand, if you two agree your pal is PIC, then anything bad that happens (including any violations) lands on your pal as PIC.
The FAA Chief Counsel answered your questions some time back. "Common purpose" isn't an issue since your pal is not paying for the flight, and you're paying for all the time you logged. As for your pal logging the time without paying for it (either SIC or PIC, depending on who's acting as PIC), the Chief Counsel said that safety pilots need not pay for their logged flight time when the pilot flying is logging it all.
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red4golf
Line Up and Wait
I have a similar discussion every few months with my Soldiers. They always ask why we do something the way we do it or why we aren't allowed to do this thing a different way. I always ask what the regulations say and remind them that if they are judged it will be by the written word and not what logic would necessarily suggest.
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I'm not overly worried about it because the key word here is flying a "friends" airplane here or there. I don't advertise, and I don't do it just for anyone. But if a friend needs one moved and I'm qualified to fly it, I'll do it. I've retrieved 3 or 4 planes for buddies that have purchased Stinson's, C140, C172, Pitts etc... What do I get for compensation? Nothing, other than knowing I did a friend a favor - and maybe a beer after...
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poadeleted20
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Then why don't you just get your CP and be legal?
Kritchlow
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Kritchlow
Isn't that what this whole thread is about?
If you aren't paying the gas and logging the time, illegal; paying the gas, legal, don't pay the gas and don't log the time, legal. At least under current interpretations in use at the FAA.
Flyhound
Pre-takeoff checklist
Are you asking if you can or if you may fly your friend's plane? Only you know if you can...
Jimmy cooper
En-Route
When this weighty question is resolved shouldn't we then go back to the all important ......do you pull your airplane into the hangar?!........or do you back it in. ?!!!
So if a buddy asks if I want to go fly his plane around the patch for fun, and I'm gone for 20 - 30 minutes. (Happens a lot) I can't log it unless "I" put gas back in it?
I had a friend once get a new bi-plane. It was rated for aerobatics as am I. My friend had done spin training in other aircraft but he was apprehensive to do one in his new bi-plane because he didn't know how it would react.
As I'm working in my hangar one day (again happens a lot) he strolled down and talked to me about the new plane and how he wanted to do aerobatics in it. We BS'd about it for awhile and then he asked if I would take his new plane up solo and see how it would spin. I of course said sure, it sounds like fun.
Well, I flew the plane, did multiple rolls in it, 2-3 spins each direction and returned to the airport with my report. I told him it's a great little plane and it does exactly what it should in all aspects of spins and aerobatics. He was a happy camper and proceeded to go fly and have fun in it. He's since done many hours of loops, rolls and spins in it.
So....... Should I have not logged any of the time when I went and played with the little bi-plane? If so, maybe I better not let any of my buddies fly any of my planes unless they have a gas can in hand or commercial rating?
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If you are so stupid that you live your life by the letter of the law, yes. Otherwise it's fine.
SkyDog58
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Canis Non Grata
Heck... let's get more silly. Here is a multiple choice question. I do not know if it is in the FAA test bank or not.
Teenage kid flies his dad's airplane for free all throughout getting his PPL and even afterwards. Should we:
a. Crucify him.
b. Burn him at the stake.
c. Stone him.
d. Silently be envious while still feeling good for him.
Teenage kid flies his dad's airplane for free all throughout getting his PPL and even afterwards. Should we:
a. Crucify him.
b. Burn him at the stake.
c. Stone him.
d. Silently be envious while still feeling good for him.
Kiddo's Driver
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Jim
He turned me into a Newt!
He must bring me a shrubbery.
gitmo234
Line Up and Wait
Today I took my airplane for a test flight after the annual. I forgot to check the time before and after, and since I only did two trips in the pattern I just logged .5 as an estimate.
Am I going to jail?
Am I going to jail?
brian109
Pre-takeoff checklist
It's only a flesh wound
Cpt_Kirk
En-Route
Tom-D
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There is no rule that says you must put gas in any aircraft after flight. the rule says you must pay the direct costs of the flight.
for those who flew their buddies aircraft and did not fuel it. there were no direct costs.
for those who flew their buddies aircraft and did not fuel it. there were no direct costs.
MikeELP
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Mike Bruening
Which is exactly why I enjoyed being in the Air Force. "WHY and/or WHY NOT?" were encouraged questions.
:wink2: