Can I ferry a friends plane?

AdamZ said:
Ding Ding Ding! We have a Winnah! Dr. Dave asked the question that is most likely to bite you or the owner in the keister!
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If you're in a position to own a P51 or turbine and let some dumb blonde fly it solo, chances are you are fully capable of self insuring, or eating a loss.

Even if you're a pre kids Angelina Jolie, you ain't taking my plane solo.

Frankly it's easier to wine and dine yielding the same outcome, of course I'm not old as dirt nor was I hit with he ugly stick, YMMV :dunno:

Henning said:
Barter is better than cash, in the end, we're all whores.
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Ain't that the truth

Ron Levy said:
Good advice -- create documentary evidence of a violation of the regulations.:no:
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Quote my entire post Ron.

If I write you a check for my share of expenses, take a photo of it, and you misplace it, are too busy and forget to ask for a new one, how is that in violation of any regs?

Better yet, say I did work on your house and traded for flight time, send a email about it to you, hows the Feds going to move towards a violation on that?
 
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Ron Levy said:
No can do -- you have no "common purpose" for the flight. The only reason you're there is to fly the plane, so you must pay the full direct cost of the flight.
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Ron, not doubting you, but can't helping a friend be considered a common purpose?
 
Kritchlow said:
Ron, not doubting you, but can't helping a friend be considered a common purpose?
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Not as the Chief Counsel defines that term, which is essentially that all parties aboard have an independent reason to be traveling to the same destination on the same date, e.g., me going to see the Orioles play in Boston while my neighbor is attending her niece's wedding in Boston the same day. Helping that friend get to that wedding just doesn't cut it without me having my own reason to be in Boston on that day -- I can fly her free, but I have to pay the full direct cost of the flight.

That said, if I take her up there at my expense, and as we get there she just happens to hand me a front row upper box ticket to the O's-Red Sox game going on the same time as the wedding...

...we'll see if the FAA can ever find that umbrella. ;)

The big problem with what the OP proposes is the time will be in his logbook, but either the fuel costs will be on her card or there will be a check to him -- documentation of a violation. If something goes wrong, and the FAA investigates, and she says he was ferrying the plane for her, he's totally hosed with no defense and a lot of evidence against him.
 
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Ron Levy said:
Not as the Chief Counsel defines that term, which is essentially that all parties aboard have an independent reason to be traveling to the same destination on the same date, e.g., me going to see the Orioles play in Boston while my neighbor is attending her niece's wedding in Boston the same day. Helping that friend get to that wedding just doesn't cut it without me having my own reason to be in Boston on that day -- I can fly her free, but I have to pay the full direct cost of the flight.

That said, if I take her up there at my expense, and as we get there she just happens to hand me a front row upper box ticket to the O's-Red Sox game going on the same time as the wedding...

...we'll see if the FAA can ever find that umbrella. ;)

The big problem with what the OP proposes is the time will be in his logbook, but either the fuel costs will be on her card or there will be a check to him -- documentation of a violation. If something goes wrong, and the FAA investigates, and she says he was ferrying the plane for her, he's totally hosed with no defense and a lot of evidence against him.
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I

Can't
Apprehend
Solving
His

problem there... :D
 
There are no rules saying I can not fly any aircraft that I am rated for, to any place, for any reason and give a ride in it to any one I please.

I CAN NOT

charge the pax for any portion of the ride. (give means just that) GIVE.

What you do off airport is none of the FAA's business. There is no rule saying the pax can't buy me dinner later. there is no way the FAA can tie the two together.

were she to pay me for no apparent reason, other than we flew together that day, is nothing but a circumstantial evidence they might try to violate the pilot, it would be way too hard to prove at the NTSB hearing that the money was to fly. The FAA must nearly catch you red handed taking the cash to make it stick.
There is no rule saying I can't leave the aircraft at the airport empty.
 
Mr

Henning said:
PP rules have been interpreted that free flight time is compensation. If you pay for the fuel, you're in the clear.
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correct answer. when I was a student the flight school asked me to ferry a plane for them from point A to point B in exchange for solo time. I jumped at the chance. long story short the local FSDO became aware and called both myself and my CFI in for a chat. I was admonished precisely because free flight has been interpreted by the FAA as compensation. since I was a student the wrath of the FSDO fell on the flight school. if the OP pays for the fuel he should be fine since there is no compensation. no different than borrowing a friend's plane and paying for the gas.
 
If you do the flight and log the time, all that your logbook shows is the normal flight info. It does not show who paid for what or who didn't pay for what. The only way an over eager ASI would know about a possible FAR violation would be for you or your friend to say something about it or post a question on a public forum about it.
 
Tom-D said:
There are no rules saying I can not fly any aircraft that I am rated for, to any place, for any reason and give a ride in it to any one I please.
...
.
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You clearly haven't looked or if you have, you refuse to see.
 
SkyDog58 said:
If you do the flight and log the time, all that your logbook shows is the normal flight info. It does not show who paid for what or who didn't pay for what. The only way an over eager ASI would know about a possible FAR violation would be for you or your friend to say something about it or post a question on a public forum about it.
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Exactly, nobody cares until someone with a vested interest complains.
 
These threads always end the same way. The voice of authority, the voice of "don't ask don't tell", and the pot stirrer who asks questions to get the two of them to argue.

I openly wonder if the "authority crowd" really does everything by the book when no one is looking, and also, if the "don't ask, don't tell" crowd supported Bill Clinton when he took it mainstream 2 decades ago... :dunno:

:rofl:
 
This just cracks me up! Just fly the damn thing for her. There's no passengers, no freight and you are not getting paid for it. If I worried every time about flying a buddies plane here or there for him (sometimes cross country), it would never get done! I've ferried friends planes many times to drop them off after they've been sold or heading in for maintenance. It's not a big deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
PAustin said:
This just cracks me up! Just fly the damn thing for her. There's no passengers, no freight and you are not getting paid for it. If I worried every time about flying a buddies plane here or there for him (sometimes cross country), it would never get done! I've ferried friends planes many times to drop them off after they've been sold or heading in for maintenance. It's not a big deal.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Its just like the "Can I log PIC" thread. We really have to worry about the secret UFOs the FAA has that will pull you over in mid-flight with a tractor beam or agents that will stop you on the ramp and use psychic powers to review your logbook with their mind.

After the 180 legal opinions, it was decided the only legal way to even think about flying is get a justice of the peace to swear off on a dead sea scroll specifically authorizing you flight time
 
retailguy said:
I openly wonder if the "authority crowd" really does everything by the book when no one is looking, and also, if the "don't ask, don't tell" crowd supported Bill Clinton when he took it mainstream 2 decades ago... :dunno:

:rofl:
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The don't ask, don't tell crowd had been around since way before Bill Clinton. All he did was to make it policy. :D
 
SkyDog58 said:
If you do the flight and log the time, all that your logbook shows is the normal flight info. It does not show who paid for what or who didn't pay for what. The only way an over eager ASI would know about a possible FAR violation would be for you or your friend to say something about it or post a question on a public forum about it.
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...or for something bad to happen, like an accident or flight violation. But I thought the question was whether it was legal, not whether you were likely to get caught if you violated those rules.
 
Witmo said:
Tom-D said:
There are no rules saying I can not fly any aircraft that I am rated for, to any place, for any reason and give a ride in it to any one I please.
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You clearly haven't looked or if you have, you refuse to see.
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No, Tom's correct -- focus on the word "give", i.e., to provide without compensation. You can give rides to anyone you want, anywhere you want, any time you want without violating the rules under discussion. It's only when money starts changing hands (other than you paying the cost of the flight) that these issues arise.
 
PAustin said:
This just cracks me up! Just fly the damn thing for her. There's no passengers, no freight and you are not getting paid for it. If I worried every time about flying a buddies plane here or there for him (sometimes cross country), it would never get done! I've ferried friends planes many times to drop them off after they've been sold or heading in for maintenance. It's not a big deal.
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It will be if you do it often enough that it comes to the FAA's attention, or if someone who provides ferry services for hire hears about it and complains to the FAA because you're costing him/her business. That's generally how the faux 135 operators get caught.
 
Basically it comes down to this: with very few exceptions like glider towing and skydiving clubs that have published exemptions and allowances, if you are a PP logging as PIC and not paying your prorata for it, you are in violation.
 
This is beyond silly and just shows the idiocy of our government. The reality is that if you are not carrying passengers for hire or being paid for your services the FAA shouldn't care. As a matter of fact they should be encouraging this type of activity as the low cost or free flight time in theory should make that PPL a better more experienced pilot.
 
DFH65 said:
This is beyond silly and just shows the idiocy of our government. The reality is that if you are not carrying passengers for hire or being paid for your services the FAA shouldn't care. As a matter of fact they should be encouraging this type of activity as the low cost or free flight time in theory should make that PPL a better more experienced pilot.
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The FAA doesn't care, they could really give a **** less about it until some Commercial Pilot complains to them because he got cut out of paying work, same way as you get caught running a 134.5 charter service, you get busted because the guy who jumped through the hoops and bore the expenses of getting a 135 certificate complains you are taking his business; or something happens that gets the FAA involved and the pax interview turns up you sold them a charter. Even then though, not much really happens to you for it.
 
DFH65 said:
This is beyond silly and just shows the idiocy of our government. The reality is that if you are not carrying passengers for hire or being paid for your services the FAA shouldn't care. As a matter of fact they should be encouraging this type of activity as the low cost or free flight time in theory should make that PPL a better more experienced pilot.
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You haven't read the Federal Aviation Act and the Congressional discussion behind it, have you?
 
Brad Z said:
It seems the best looking female pilots never need bother buying an airplane in order to log flight time. If you look at the social media sites for ladies such as Gulfstream(Global) girl or (the other) Amelia Earhart, bald, middle aged airplane owners are falling over themselves to offer these lovely aviatrices flights in their spam cans. Of course they're posting selfies from the cockpits of F-16s and the like...good luck boys, but if you're not burning kerosene, forget it.
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Sure.
 
Don't log the time, or split the fuel, and you're fine with 'compensation' rules. I'd be more concerned about insurance issues.
 
JimNtexas said:
Don't log the time, or split the fuel, and you're fine with 'compensation' rules. I'd be more concerned about insurance issues.
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Insurance issues are even simpler, meet the open pilot warrantee or get listed on the policy, and have her bind the coverage with honest information. Do that, no worries.
 
ooh -ee -ooh-ah-ah ching-chang-walla-walla-bing-bang
ooh -ee -ooh-ah-ah ching-chang-walla-walla-bing-bang!

PLEASE- SHOOT ME! :mad2:
 
JimNtexas said:
Please refer to the law that says flight time is 'compensation'. Hint: There is no such law.
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Not a law, but a legal interpretation. Should this issue come before the Administrator again my guess is that they would cite this as precedent:

"The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) has construed compensation broadly. Compensation "does not require a profit, a profit motive, or the actual payment of funds." Legal Interpretation to Joseph Kirwan (May 27, 2005). Rather, compensation is the receipt of anything of value. The FAA has previously found that reimbursement of expenses (fuel, oil, transportation, lodging, meals, etc.), accumulation of flight time, and goodwill in the form of expect future economic benefit could be considered compensation. Legal Interpretation to John W. Harrington (Oct. 23, 1997); Blakey v. Murray, NTSB Order No. EA-5061 (Oct. 28, 2003)."

Bob Gardner
 
JimNtexas said:
Please refer to the law that says flight time is 'compensation'. Hint: There is no such law.
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That doesn't require a separate law, and flight time has a legal interpretation on the record that it is considered compensation that has been published in the Federal Register. You can certainly challenge that interpretation in court, however it will cost more than the time is worth.
 
JimNtexas said:
Please refer to the law that says flight time is 'compensation'. Hint: There is no such law.
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Hint: That's not the issue. Try "levels of safety".

The fundamental issue has to do with the Congressional mandate to provide higher levels of safety when aviation services are provided for compensation/hire than when they are provided free. That's why they prohibit Private Pilots from holding out piloting services (including ferrying other peoples' airplanes) for compensation/hire. The only way to get around that (short of earning a CP ticket) is to receive nothing of value (including loggable flight time) from the party to whom you are providing this valuable service. Or as Dr. Lector put it, "Quid pro quo, Clarisse, quid pro quo."

That said, all you really have to pay to stay FAA-legal is the direct cost of the flight (fuel, landing fees, etc), which is a deep discount off regular rental rates, so the FAA really is letting you get something of value (the discounted flight time) without a CP ticket. Complain enough, and maybe they'll change that to require paying the fully-costed rate instead of just the direct costs.
 
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My original question was is there a legal way to do it. If so, I'll do it that way, if not, she can hire someone. I am rule follower for sure.
 
mikeinbama said:
My original question was is there a legal way to do it. If so, I'll do it that way, if not, she can hire someone. I am rule follower for sure.
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The legal way to do it is for you to pay for the direct costs of the flight (fuel, landing fees, etc). That's a lot cheaper flight time than renting, so if you're looking to build flight time and experience, you really are getting a good deal out of it.

And use that time towards the 250 total and 50 XC PIC for CP so next time you can not only avoid paying, but actually get paid for doing such services.
 
mikeinbama said:
My original question was is there a legal way to do it. If so, I'll do it that way, if not, she can hire someone. I am rule follower for sure.
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It has already been explained to you several legal ways to do it, now go fly and see if "Mile High" counts as compensation and if paying prorata for the fuel costs counts as soliciting prostitution.:D
 
Henning said:
It has already been explained to you several legal ways to do it, now go fly and see if "Mile High" counts as compensation and if paying prorata for the fuel costs counts as soliciting prostitution.:D
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Best answer yet. Seriously, thanks everyone. This horse is sufficiently beaten.
 
Until I joined this forum this would never have remotely dawned on me to be an illegal flight. I just would have helped out a friend, logged it, and no one would be the wiser.
 
Kritchlow said:
Until I joined this forum this would never have remotely dawned on me to be an illegal flight. I just would have helped out a friend, logged it, and no one would be the wiser.
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And I would have gladly picked up the fuel cost for the privilege...
 
Kritchlow said:
Until I joined this forum this would never have remotely dawned on me to be an illegal flight. I just would have helped out a friend, logged it, and no one would be the wiser.
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So would I (and still would) and everyone else on here that isn't scared of their own shadow, and thinks everyone else should be too.
 
Kritchlow said:
Until I joined this forum this would never have remotely dawned on me to be an illegal flight. I just would have helped out a friend, logged it, and no one would be the wiser.
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EdFred said:
So would I (and still would) and everyone else on here that isn't scared of their own shadow, and thinks everyone else should be too.
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:yeahthat: :thumbsup:
 
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