Can I charge passengers for engine overhaul?

[ajstoner21]

Actually, if your friend ever takes your plane up as PIC you would be putting HIM in violation of 61.113 if he did not pay pro rata share. Think about that!

If I read the reg right, he doesnt HAVE to pay a dime, if he is solo.

61.113 (c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expednitures, or rental fees

 

[Tom-D]

I apologize if my original wording was confusing. I guess I should have made two posts, as there were really two separate questions I wanted an answer to.

1) Q: While I pilot my own plane, can I charge my passengers for overhaul time.
A) The answer to this it seems is clearly no, unless there is an LLC involved that I am renting from.


You can't even do it then either. only the fare share of the common purpose flight.

2) Q: Without upgrading to a commercial insurance policy, can I charge a friend for overhaul time while he uses my plane with a CFI? A) Still not sure about this one. I don't want to make money on the deal, since he's a friend, but it would be nice to be able to at least break even on engine time.

This is not an issue of insurance. it is about the rule 61.113, and it is easy understood. When you are the pilot you can share, when you rent 61.113 does not apply.

 

[bbchien]

Of course, Tom. But he now posts that for him, the insurance is the big issue (Item #2, post # 38).

 

[Henning]

He'll tell you all about sharing expenses, this guy is not sharing, he is allowing his aircraft to be rented.

any one can rent your aircraft, there is no rule saying you can't.

His question was 2 fold it appeared to me, one question for passengers, answer "No" ond one question for renters, answer "Charge them for what the market will bear, unrestricted"

 

[Tom-D]

Post #1 has been edited to read

"" As a Private Pilot, am I allowed to charge passengers their portion of an engine and/or propeller overhaul fund for a flight?

Additionally, if I have a co-worker who is borrowing my plane to get his PPL, am I allowed to charge him for engine overhaul time? Since he is a named pilot on my insurance, I can't actually rent the plane to him without needing a different policy, but does that also mean I can't get a reimbursement for engine overhaul funds?

Lastly, if I am able to charge for engine overhaul, when does the calculation for that occur? Meaning, can I only charge for engine overhaul based on a zero time engine to manufacturer TBO, or can I charge them a fee based on the engine time from the time of their flight, or would it only be from the time of my purchase of the airplane to TBO?
Last edited by Challenged; June 7th, 2011 at 08:17 AM.

And the answers to all three questions are:

1. he can't charge pax. more than their fare share.
2. It makes no difference to the FAA if he is insured or not, he can charge his renter, even if he is a named pilot.
3. He is asking about a engine reserve fund, that should be based upon the TBO of the engine and the cost of the overhaul. (Cost/TBO)

 

[John Baker]

It's simple to figure out. Try your best to follow all the rules and regs, then hope like heck the FAA or NTSB has not taken an interest in you. If they have, your screwed no matter what you do, win or lose, it's going to cost you either way.

Why push your luck playing with definitions, it can end up costing you a whole lot more than a new engine. It just flat out is not worth the risk. Even if you had written permission to do as you are apparently scheming on doing, direct from the FAA, it means nothing if they decide they want to get your butt. All they have to do is say the employee who authorized it made a mistake.......end of story.

Follow the rules as best you can, and stop trying to be slick. You have a current copy of FARs, that is all you need.

John

 

[Mike5250]

An alternative would be if the plane is owned by an LLC, and you pay rental to the LLC that includes an engine reserve, that's acceptable.

Remember, an LLC is a separate legal entity from the owner. So, if you normally pay rental to your LLC, then you should be able to do the same when calculating pro-rata shares.

I can see the next question. My llc charges 500/hr for our 172. Lets share costs... is this legal?

I don't charge people to fly but am more than happy to let them know what the bill is if they ask and want to contribute. Most flights I have shared with other pilots and we take turns paying and have access to different planes so it works out.

Mike

 

[Tom-D]

The FAA will never chase any owner about sharing expenses without a whining rider.

And it gets a bit hectic when the rider pays for fuel with their CC at a self service pump.

 

[Tom-D]

If I pick up your aircraft and bring it in for maintenance, and it was half full when I picked it up, and I fill it before returning it to you, can I charge you for that fuel?

 

[ChrisRikli]

This is moderately OT, but I'm curious as to how the FAA polices some of this stuff.

How are they going to know if my father-in-law gives me a couple hundred bucks cash for flying him around to look at his fields? (I haven't and he hasn't, pure hypothetical).

I got this rule pounded into my head during training. Sorta got the feeling that if the flight cost was $199 and my passenger gave me a C-note that FAA goons would instantaneously drop in from stealth invisible helicopters hovering overhead, take my physical license, use it to inflict some flesh wounds, and ground me forever.

I get the reason for the rule, I think. They don't want somebody with a PPL starting up an air taxi service. But if I do a friend a favor and fly him home from being on tour with his band so that he can see his wife and he wants to pay for the flight, seriously, what hazard is this creating?

I'm sure that bureaucratic minds, abie to think only in non-sequitor, envisage that such a scenario would lead me to want to give other friends rides. Eventually I'd decide it would be irresistible to leave the business that made me prosperous enough to drop $12K on training and at least $115 an hour any time I want to play in order to cater to the throngs of people lining up and begging to pay $1000 to fly a few hundred miles basically in each others laps whilst getting tossed about by the faintest breeze.

 

[Jim_R]

I'm curious as to how the FAA polices some of this stuff.

How are they going to know if my father-in-law gives me a couple hundred bucks cash for flying him around to look at his fields? (I haven't and he hasn't, pure hypothetical).

This is the same as any hundreds of other laws on the books. How does the IRS know if you gave that much money to charity? How do the cops know if you're growing marijuana in your attic? How does the state know if you're taking payment in cash for your business transactions and keeping them off the books to avoid sales tax? How does the highway patrol know you're speeding if no partolman is watching you?

The answer is, of course, they don't. Unless they happen to audit you, or your house catches fire and the smoke smells funny, or a disgruntled employee calls a tip line, or a patrolman happens to pop over the next hill and shoot you with radar.

Unless something happens to bring an infraction to the FAA's attention, they may never know about it.

But we live in a society based on the rule of law, and we're supposed to follow those laws not just because we might get caught and punished if we break them, but because society as a whole has decided that's the way to behave and that's how society keeps working.

 

[ChrisRikli]

But we live in a society based on the rule of law, and we're supposed to follow those laws not just because we might get caught and punished if we break them, but because society as a whole has decided that's the way to behave and that's how society keeps working.

Why we follow the rules wasn't really my question; I grok the social contract.

The IRS audits, the DEA flies around in planes with FLIR looking for grow lamps, and the cops set up speed traps. Does the FAA do anything similar in policing PPL flight funding? I've been ramp checked, but never questioned about who was paying for what.

 

[bobmrg]

Why we follow the rules wasn't really my question; I grok the social contract.

The IRS audits, the DEA flies around in planes with FLIR looking for grow lamps, and the cops set up speeds traps. Does the FAA do anything similar in policing PPL flight funding? I've been ramp checked, but never questioned about who was paying for what.

As noted by others, it all comes crashing down around your ears when an ops inspector asks one of your passengers (after an accident or incident, of course) "what was the purpose of your trip?" and the doofus says "I just chartered this plane for a trip down to see grandma in the hospital" or "I asked Chris if he would fly me to Vegas and he said yes." Absent the accident or incident, it is unlikely that your flight will come to the attention of the FAA.

Bob Gardner

 

[Tom-D]

Why we follow the rules wasn't really my question; I grok the social contract.

The IRS audits, the DEA flies around in planes with FLIR looking for grow lamps, and the cops set up speed traps. Does the FAA do anything similar in policing PPL flight funding? I've been ramp checked, but never questioned about who was paying for what.

They are now having a Airworthiness inspector inspect every aircraft before a FAA examiner can ride in it..

they have a fine tooth comb.

 

[Tom-D]

" Mr FAA" SoinSO charged me #60 for gas.........

they will be on you like brown on scat.

It takes a whining Pax.

 

[jesse]

They are now having a Airworthiness inspector inspect every aircraft before a FAA examiner can ride in it..

they have a fine tooth comb.

And they are very thorough during that inspection.

 

[John Baker]

They are now having a Airworthiness inspector inspect every aircraft before a FAA examiner can ride in it..

they have a fine tooth comb.

When I took my SODA ride, they had not one, but two inspectors going over my plane, while a third poured through my aircraft log books.

The inspector that was going to take the ride with me went over my flight log book, page by page, drilling me about my flight instructors and my flight training, He brought each flight instructor up on his screen. I still did not have my ticket at the time.

It took close to an hour and a half for the ground screening, then a little over an hour for the SODA ride. At one point I asked him if he was giving me a check ride for my license, he was covering everything in the book.

I found out later that day, that an hour before I got to the FSDO, some nut case had crashed his Cherokee into an IRS building in Texas.
That was the only way I could justify their thoroughness in my mind, I hate thinking someone was out to get me. It was the Texas thing, for sure.

(By the way, I aced my SODA, and the only thing two inspectors could find wrong with my aircraft was a small crack that had gone beyond the stop drill in my right wingtip. My aircraft and flight logs were in perfect order.)


John

 

[jesse]

When I took my SODA ride, they had not one, but two inspectors going over my plane, while a third poured through my aircraft log books.

The inspector that was going to take the ride with me went over my flight log book, page by page, drilling me about my flight instructors and my flight training, He brought each flight instructor up on his screen. I still did not have my ticket at the time.

That sounds pretty standard for the FAA.

 

[Tom-D]

That sounds pretty standard for the FAA.

You'll find that inspectors never travel alone during the work week. it's usually one AV or Ops and an airworthy inspector.

 

[Tim]

How can I get people to send me money and not do anything for them?