Can GPS units become obsolete so that it must be replaced?

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DMD3.

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DMD3.
This is a rather silly question, but I'm not an IFR pilot and I don't currently fly any aircraft with a GPS installed in the dash. But can a GPS get to where it has to be replaced after enough time passes? And I'm not talking about updating it every 28 days to be legal for IFR, I'm talking about having to literally replace it.

I read about people all the time wanting to spend enough money to buy another airplane in order to update their avionics system. If I owned an aircraft with a Garmin 430 or 530, I'd be happy with that for the next 30 years, so long as I can continue to update it to be legal for IFR (if I were to obtain an instrument rating). There was a Beech Sundowner I used to rent that had an old GPS with a green & black screen, (like the early 90's Game Boys), and it was legal for IFR use... I'd even accept that.
 
As long as they pick up the satellites, and display your position, they should be good. I have an ancient Lowrance monochrome unit (which was taken from me before every solo cross-country!) that still operates, though you can no longer update the maps.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
As long as they pick up the satellites, and display your position, they should be good. I have an ancient Lowrance monochrome unit (which was taken from me before every solo cross-country!) that still operates, though you can no longer update the maps.
Click to expand...

I was referring to dash-mounted units that you can shoot approaches with.

As far as handhelds go, I have an Aera 500 that I bought back in 2013 that I've never updated even once. I mainly use it as a road GPS, as I now have Foreflight. :D
 
Manufacturers can go out of business. They can also decide its no longer profitable for them to keep producing updates for units they haven't made in years.
So if we're talking IFR, then you could most definitely end up with an obsolete boat anchor in your panel.

For VFR I don't believe the database updates aren't required (if I'm wrong, someone will correct me). However there is a database in there and items in that database do change over time. Airspace lines get modified. Frequencies change. So while it likely won't get to be truly obsolete, the longer you go from when the database was current, the less and less useful the unit becomes for aviation navigation purposes.
 
The box is good till the manufacturer decides to quit supporting it with software updates. So far, none of the manufacturers have shown an appetite to drop updates except Lowrance, and fortunately they weren't building panel mount IFR units. As long as there is competition, I don't think it is a concern.

Microsoft with their Windows product is a good example of what can happen with a lack of competition. Versions of Windows go obsolete even though they still work perfectly. Windows XP runs great on a couple of my old machines, and Office XP on those machines runs as fast or faster than the latest version of Office on new Windows 10 machines. But not a whole lot of other software runs under XP and the machines won't handle newer operating systems, so one day I'll probably throw a functioning computer in the trash heap.
 
There's been discussion of this before.

As @Juliet Hotel indicates - you may lose support for the unit itself.

You may also lose support from Jepp and/or Garmin for the Nav DB required for IFR. That commercial decision, IMHO, is based on the number of active subscriptions they are rolling for each unit. My further opinion is that there are enough GNS series subscribers to stay profitable on the DB effort for a great while.

The other database is the Terrain DB. Some say they haven't seen the mountains getting any taller, and if the valley is lower it is harder to hit. Not sure how much stock I put in that.
 
Its no different than other tech devices. New ones offer things the old ones don’t have so guys upgrade. You might have had an old brick phone. Probably don’t now, right?
 
Stewartb said:
You might have had an old brick phone. Probably don’t now, right?
Click to expand...

I wish I did. Call quality is all I care about, but it's the last "feature" considered for the Smartphone crowd, that doesn't even bother phoning their "friends."
 
Just about everything becomes supplanted and ultimately obsolete. It may be capacity. It may be functionality. It may be planned obsolescence. A KLN 89 or 90 may work just fine but are limited to what they can do as of the last software update. That's even true for what it still a mainstay for many - the GNS 400/500 series. Never been updated to load airways. Not a big deal to some, but once you work with a unit which does, loading 9 fixes instead of two to define the same course becomes a real PITA for others.
 
Collins has stopped supporting some of its older units, largely, I think, because they're so limited in memory that they can't hold more than half the country.
 
Once they quit supporting the data the box is a paper weight.
 
For the most part at long as it has support, and support really boils down to the most important thing which is approach updates (see Jepp)
https://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/legal/charts/ads-overview.jsp?ostc=ostc00185wh&omnostcloc=lr1
and to a smaller factor repairs, though most of the units are near zero maintenance.

Update wise Jepp could care less about forcing you to buy this years model, they simply sell downloads, as long as X amount of people want to update their GPS, Jepp will be happy to make downloads for it.

Why do people get the newest GPS, well if we compare WAAS to WAAS, ie a 430W to a new 650, they both do exactly the same job, shoot approaches to the same mins and have the same form factor. Some folks are doing a new install and don’t want to search on the private used market for a 430W deal (they hold their value quite well) and others will “upgrade” their 430s to 650s because have the cash to burn and are the chasing the jones type.

Clip4 said:
Once they quit supporting the data the box is a paper weight.
Click to expand...

Minus it’s still a nav com and still a VFR GPS and also IFR for a few uses, and can be tied into a autopilot etc
 
A procedure won't even load if the data base is out of date. Maybe an up to date procedure buried in an expired data base might. Never tried. My first use of an IFR GPS was the Trimble 2101. Trimble went out of the GPS business a year or two after that one. All the 2101's were scrapped. That was the clunkiest piece of gear ever. I found it impossible to punch in a flight plan. However, a friend who flew a corporate jet raved about it. Go figure.
 
Stewartb said:
Its no different than other tech devices. New ones offer things the old ones don’t have so guys upgrade. You might have had an old brick phone. Probably don’t now, right?
Click to expand...

I do have a little flip phone that I bought back in 2012 and still have to this day. I’ve never had to update it once hehehe :D

I stated I don’t have an IR. However, I did start out to obtain the rating in that Sundowner with the old green/black screen GPS (I believe it may have been a Garmin 155; something in that tier). It didn’t have much of a moving map, it basically just gave you a heading to whichever airport or waypoint you punched in. However, it was perfectly legal for nonprecision approaches in IFR weather (and legal in assisting with an ILS approach), and something like that would be would be good enough for me for the next 50 years, so long as it could be updated to use for legal IFR.
 
The GPS active antenna on my planting tractor went toes up. After three visits to the farm from the technician (and having claimed it was the six year old, $6000 display head, that would have to be replaced because it was obsolete and they could not repair it) After I pitched a ***** at the president of the company, mentioning the words 'fraud' and 'lawyer' they suddenly discovered the new antenna he used for testing was defective. (uhuh) A new new antenna fixed it for $130. Good thing it wasn't on a plane or you could add another zero to that.
 
Updates are only required for approaches. Without updates you can still navigate enroute and in terminal airspace as long as you verify the waypoint info. Basically what you are left with is a darn good VOR like navigator with DME capability. Still of some value by my estimation.
 
DMD3. said:
This is a rather silly question, but I'm not an IFR pilot and I don't currently fly any aircraft with a GPS installed in the dash. But can a GPS get to where it has to be replaced after enough time passes? And I'm not talking about updating it every 28 days to be legal for IFR, I'm talking about having to literally replace it.

I read about people all the time wanting to spend enough money to buy another airplane in order to update their avionics system. If I owned an aircraft with a Garmin 430 or 530, I'd be happy with that for the next 30 years, so long as I can continue to update it to be legal for IFR (if I were to obtain an instrument rating). There was a Beech Sundowner I used to rent that had an old GPS with a green & black screen, (like the early 90's Game Boys), and it was legal for IFR use... I'd even accept that.
Click to expand...

That's one reason why we should not put all our eggs into glass panels and GPS. When a company goes out of business, there is no way someone else can service it unless they have the schematics and source codes. Its ok on items that have a short life, like cell phones and computers, and even cars, but airplanes stay around for half a century or more. That's a long time. My idea of IFR instrumentation is the old six pack with a Garmin 430. I realize the 430 can become obsolete, but unfortunately it is kinda essential these days.
 
There are two parts to the question: 1) Does the underlying GPS technology quit due to other parts of the system upgrading? 2) Does the existing unit become useless due to database issues?

1) If you have a functioning unit, regardless of age, it can still see the satellites and still determine its position. I had a Lowrance handheld that I bought used in 2005 and it was old then. Hadn't had a database update in several years. It would navigate fine by Lat/Long. I finally donated to somebody who used them for some kind of amateur surveying. He didn't care that the airports were mislabeled and the airspace was out of date, he just wanted the Lat/Long.

2a) The internal database of airports, airspace, waypoints, airways, etc. grows and grows. Eventually exceeding the capacity of the unit. Even the 430 (386 family embedded processor IIRC. My first 386 development project was in 1987. 32 years ago current tech.) has dropped runways under 4000 feet from the worldwide database (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviationalerts/service-advisory-1604-worldwide-navigation-database/). They are running out of memory.

2b) The market or the greed of the manufacturers (take your pick) will make supporting the database updates monetarily undesirable (delicately enough put?). At that point, you've got rapidly diminishing usefulness. You can continue to use the GPS (legally) if you verify each and every approach that you choose to use for accuracy with the current published charts. But that, of course, becomes enough of a pain that it's not really worthwhile eventually.

John
 
jsstevens said:
2a) The internal database of airports, airspace, waypoints, airways, etc. grows and grows. Eventually exceeding the capacity of the unit. Even the 430 (386 family embedded processor IIRC. My first 386 development project was in 1987. 32 years ago current tech.) has dropped runways under 4000 feet from the worldwide database (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/aviationalerts/service-advisory-1604-worldwide-navigation-database/). They are running out of memory.

2b) The market or the greed of the manufacturers (take your pick) will make supporting the database updates monetarily undesirable (delicately enough put?). At that point, you've got rapidly diminishing usefulness. You can continue to use the GPS (legally) if you verify each and every approach that you choose to use for accuracy with the current published charts. But that, of course, becomes enough of a pain that it's not really worthwhile eventually.

John
Click to expand...


On point one, sadly it’s going the other way, we are seeing more airports close in the US than open, so there’s that. Plus even a non WAAS card can right now hold all of the US and Canada.

To the second point, that’s freemarket and it’s great! Since places like Garmin didn’t focus enough and put enough value in the data/update part of the industry, others like Jepp were more than happy
To jump in and take that money to provide that service, Jepp is more than happy to keep pumping out update for whatever as long as enough people are willing to pay for said updates.
 
sarangan said:
That's one reason why we should not put all our eggs into glass panels and GPS. When a company goes out of business, there is no way someone else can service it unless they have the schematics and source codes.
Click to expand...
Someone like Garmin though likely won't go out of business.. and if they do, there's enough of a market demand out there with thousands of installations that someone will find a way to support it. It's the ancient KLN-89 and things like that which are basically useless now.. except as a VFR direct TO navigator. Which, like others mentioned, still have some value.. depending on your mission
 
Tantalum said:
Someone like Garmin though likely won't go out of business.. and if they do, there's enough of a market demand out there with thousands of installations that someone will find a way to support it. It's the ancient KLN-89 and things like that which are basically useless now.. except as a VFR direct TO navigator. Which, like others mentioned, still have some value.. depending on your mission
Click to expand...

KLN-89 was always VFR only. The B still works just fine for approaches.
 
dmspilot said:
KLN-89 was always VFR only
Click to expand...
Well that makes sense then why all the rental planes that still have these have a big note "VFR ONLY"

Incidentally, there was a 172R I rented for a while that had the KLN 94.. the KLN GPS always struck me as a very hokey 1980s DOS type design. I don't miss it!
 
One thing that will eventually happen if the units don't get dropped from support is that their memory modules will become too small to hold the necessary databases without limiting coverage. This happened to an otherwise operational and high end auto GPS unit I own. Just not enough internal memory to hold even a fraction of current data, even though the software is up to date and it works well. It will only hold part of the US map at one time. I think the 430 has a whopping 16 MB of memory. That's M not G. Someone already mentioned that some worldwide 430 databases are now being trimmed to fit. The 430 is reliable but OLD tech. You can buy a 400 GB microSDXC card now for under $100. That's GB with a G.
 
The unit itself will work. I can think of a couple of reasons, functionality-wise, why one would have wanted to upgrade (or would want to now).

Early on, you had to punch lat/longs into the GPS and it would just give you track, groundspeed, and desired track. No fancy schmancy moving map, no approach capability. Before my time.

Then, you got units that had a database so you could at least punch in airport or fix IDs and get the same info. Example: Northstar M3.
Then, you got units that had rudimentary moving maps and IFR terminal/enroute capability. Example: Apollo GX55.
Then there were the ones that could do LNAV approaches. Example: King KLN 89B.
Then we got the Garmin 430, with its spiffy color screen.
Then, we got WAAS navigators that would get us lower on approaches.

Now, we have big color touchscreens that can communicate wirelessly with other big color touchscreens.

Do you have to replace your GPS when any of this new stuff comes out? No. But you do get extra capability if you do, of which WAAS is probably the most useful example.
 
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