Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nope....only plug it in as needed.
Can engine heater reduce/prevent engine corrosion?
- Thread starter MountainDude
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David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
45°F doesn't sound warm enough to help. If your weather's like ours, you'll be getting days in the winter (and especially late fall/early spring) that are warmer than that, with dewpoints to match. Try an engine heater and blanket that will keep your engine up around 60–70°F, so that it's always well above the dewpoint.
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MountainDude
David, I like your input the best so far. It makes sense. I am worried not only the condensation will happen right after flights, but may happen daily due to temperature fluctuations. By plugging in my heater 24/7, I should prevent any condensation, and therefore corrosion.
Also, I am not too worried about keeping the heater on 24/7. My previous plane was a C182 and we kept the engine plugged in from Oct-May non-stop. After 15 years, the engine had no signs of engine issues (though this was in the dry southwest, so who knows).
I am just disappointed that there is no scientific data here, so we all have to guess.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Did you read what the engine builder said....?
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Drake the Outlaw
I place most engine builder claims in the anecdote pile, not the data pile. They don't overhaul enough engines and don't know enough about the conditions over the engine's 20 year life to draw firm conclusions.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Never mind....lol
idahoflier
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idahoflier
How long since last flown in the pictures?
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
7-8 months.....I was doing a top overhaul. Was working on it in my family room. lol
Oh....and I change the oil once an year....whether it needs it or not.
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What make you think that?
Both Lycoming and Continental have enough overhaul business to keep those operations an on-going concern.
http://www.continental.aero/overhaul.aspx
https://www.lycoming.com/services/overhaul-engines
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Drake the Outlaw
Lycoming and Continental know how those engines were treated during their service lives?
Stored inside vs outside, flown regularly or parked for 4 years on Merritt island? What oil the aircraft was serviced with and how frequently? Used camguard or a dehydrator?
No. They have very little idea WHY they see what they do.
That's true of nearly anyone who overhauls engines, unless it is a field overhaul. Continental claims it overhauls 500 engines a year. If they see something odd, they'd take note of it. While they might not know the the history of the engine they get back, they can tell one that was treated well, or not.
Why do you think they don't do their own testing? They certainly have far more resources to do so. There's someone in POA that used to work for one of the engine manufacturers and he sometimes describes some of the work done with different oils and such. I hope he chimes in.
David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
Yes, it's a lot of guesswork. I think Mike Busch cited some research in writing that running an engine at least once every two weeks (not just on the ground, but actually flying for an hour and getting the oil temps up) keeps internal corrosion at bay, and that if you're going to leave it much longer than that, you really should pickle it with special preservative oil, etc. So the advice here to fly regularly is pretty sound. I don't see any objection to dehumidifiers, either — I know some very thoughtful, research-oriented pilots who use them and believe they help, though I haven't seen actual research.David, I like your input the best so far. It makes sense. I am worried not only the condensation will happen right after flights, but may happen daily due to temperature fluctuations. By plugging in my heater 24/7, I should prevent any condensation, and therefore corrosion.
Also, I am not too worried about keeping the heater on 24/7. My previous plane was a C182 and we kept the engine plugged in from Oct-May non-stop. After 15 years, the engine had no signs of engine issues (though this was in the dry southwest, so who knows).
I am just disappointed that there is no scientific data here, so we all have to guess.
For the engine heater, my main beef is with people who put out the false claim that it's harmful to leave it plugged in 24/7 during cold weather, and we should all buy remote, cell-phone or internet activated switches to turn it the heaters on a few hours before a flight. I'm pretty sure the only research behind that is market research by the manufacturers of those switches, and it goes directly against the advice from Tanis.
AlphaMike
Line Up and Wait
This is perfect timing for this thread. I bought my plan last March. When I bought it the engine only had 20 hours ( O470 PPONK). It only has the basic oil pan heater. I plan to have a better heater installed at annual (February) but for now till then, I bought one of these to get me by. https://www.sportys.com/twin-hornet...VfdALIaXRBBKi_pID2RoC2e4QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds And a cowling cover.
I'm in Michigan so it gets pretty cold. any suggestions as to which engine heating system to get? local guys at the airport all seem to recommend Tanis. I fly 150 to 200 hours a year so the plane wont be sitting much. Thanks.
I'm in Michigan so it gets pretty cold. any suggestions as to which engine heating system to get? local guys at the airport all seem to recommend Tanis. I fly 150 to 200 hours a year so the plane wont be sitting much. Thanks.
Stewartb
Final Approach
If your pan heater is adequate? Add Reiff heat bands. Turbo XPs have the highest output so heat the engine the quickest. I can preheat from single digits to adequate start temp in about 2 hours.
AlphaMike
Line Up and Wait
Thanks I was hoping to get something I could leave on all the time in the winter like some others have posted. I don't have Wifi in the hanger and the cell signal is very sketchy at best, so I probably cant use one of the remote power on controllers. I fly a lot after work, I really don't have 2 hours to wait for the engine to heat up. The airport is about 20 min from my house and 30 min from work. My choices are to leave it plugged in or not fly much in the winter.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Unless you see temps below zero an oil pan hearer should do what you want. You don't need a lot of BTUs if you leave it plugged in 24/7. If you believe adding cylinder heat will help Reiff has lower output bands, too. You could install them yourself in a couple of hours.
AlphaMike
Line Up and Wait
Is there any fear of "cooking" the oil? It's my understanding that what I have is just a heating element that sits in the oil pan. Is there any risk leaving it on all the time? I don't believe it has a thermostat or anything to shut it down when it gets to a tem.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Depends how many watts the heat pad is. You don't need more than 50 but lots of guys use 75. I've had a 50 watt silicone oil pan heater on my Cessna for close to 20 years. I started out with standard Reiff bands and upgraded to the higher output bands to speed things up. I've never seen the need to remove my silicone pad and use the Reiff heat blocks. I do have the full Reiff system on my Cub.
I've used just about any preheat scheme you can think of and the full Reiff system is the best I've found. My Cessna's bastardized Reiff works great, too.
I've used just about any preheat scheme you can think of and the full Reiff system is the best I've found. My Cessna's bastardized Reiff works great, too.
I have no clue as to whether or not it's harmful to leave the engine plugged in all the time, but I don't think that anyone else in this discussion knows that either. That said, the reason I don't/wont leave my Reiff plugged in 24/7 is that I think I can manage the corrosion problem just as well by limiting the moisture in the crankcase rather doing that AND plugging it in. I'm going to run my $25 dehydrator anyway. Dewpoint aside, just running an IC engine generates a lot of moisture and I think that needs to be controlled too, rather than just trying to prevent condensation.
Stewartb
Final Approach
For the mechanically edycated types, here's a test you should run. Take a piece of 4130 strap and cut it into two equal pieces. Toss one in your freezer and the other in a terrarium. Watch what happens. I'm doing a similar experiment by placing similar pieces in a semi-sealed container with air and in a gas-filled container. Fun with science. Hypothesize, experiment, figure out what works. After all, it's only a $40K engine.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Use to do this at my last job. We had a lab where we did salt spray tests to test coatings (DeWalt power tools).
You could pre-coat these samples with oil....then spray them down with a salt solution. That will accelerate your test. Have an untreated sample beside the treated for comparison. Then report back your findings.
But take the one in the freezer OUT of the freezer maybe once or twice every two weeks, spray it down with water and let it come to room temperature...then put it back in the freezer
Stewartb
Final Approach
Alaska barely hits room temperature in July. That test wouldn't be valid for me. If that's what your winter provides? I doubt you need a pre heater.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
Interesting! In the pictures it sure looks like internally everything is covered with a at least a film of oil. Now the next question, what do you use for oil (sorry in advance if you have provided this info)?
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
Phillips 20w50 x/c with CamGuard.
I realize that the general obsession in this thread is about moisture management but that has little to do with my need for a pre-heater. Winters here fluctuate between -30F and +40F. I often fly at 20 degrees. I need a pre-heater because cold-starting an airplane engine at 20F or colder is probably the worst abuse one can heap on their $40,000 investment. There are other ways of preventing condensation/moisture/corrosion that I believe are better and cheaper than a year-round heater.
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David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
To do the experiment properly, you'd want to take one out of the freezer, put it in the terrarium, put it back in the freezer, and repeat every couple of days.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Why? That doesn't represent my engine in storage. If I preheat I fly. When I park it it returns to the same condition it was in at the end of the previous flight. The question at hand is what's best for the airplane in between activity. Let's go back to the days I stored float planes outdoors through the winter. Should I have plugged the heaters in to protect them?
David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
Daytime high temperatures in Ottawa in January average about -5c (from memory), but they can vary from below -35c to above +5c (not including windchill). It's the +1 to +5c days, rare as they are, when all the moisture happens when I'm not flying; when I do fly, I make my own moisture regardless of the OAT.
The engine heater isn't my primary defence against moisture, but while it's cold enough to use the engine heater, keeping the engine 10c or more above ambient temperature 24/7 helps ensure that it stays dry at a time of year when I'm not flying as often.
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David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
What happens to the moisture in the engine from your flight as the engine cools? Flying is like putting your strip in the terrarium; shutting down is like putting it back in the freezer.
If you pickle your engine and store the plane without flying for the winter, then yes, no need to heat. Just leave it all be.
Stewartb
Final Approach
Ideally that moisture freezes, which is what it always does providing the temps are below freezing. I have no rust concerns for frozen moisture. That's the point.
DanStrange
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The airplane falling apart from sitting is mostly not true.
The old mechanic here got a estate sale Cessna, had been sitting for a looong time in a hangar, he replaced tires and some small bits, flew it for a year and sold it, great plane.
Won’t matter if you kill yourself with ulcer over nothing
The old mechanic here got a estate sale Cessna, had been sitting for a looong time in a hangar, he replaced tires and some small bits, flew it for a year and sold it, great plane.
Won’t matter if you kill yourself with ulcer over nothing
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MountainDude
I did, but they do not give the context, so not sure it applies to all situations. Plus, David's explanation makes sense.
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MountainDude
Haha, you have the best attitude. You will have a long life.
Snowmass
Line Up and Wait
I seriously doubt starting at cold temps, as cold as you can start with AVGAS which seems to be around 5 degrees F, causes damage to the engine. This is repeated over and over with no actual proof. I talked to Porsche dealers in very cold climates and they said Porsche says no requirement to preheat their 911 aircooled engines at any temp and it has a $40,000 engine so much like an aircraft engine that it is also an aircraft engine. And with winter MOGAS you can probably start well below zero F.
Checkout_my_Six
Touchdown! Greaser!
piston scuffing does occur.....
David Megginson
Pattern Altitude
Different question than the main thread here, but also, different kind of engine.
The experts can fill you in more, but the problem with starting a horizontally-opposed piston engine cold is that aluminum and steel shrink at different rates, so there's not enough clearance for proper lubrication between the piston and cylinder wall during the first little bit of running, until the engine warms up. It's not as bad as starting your engine with no oil at all, but it's a lesser variant of the same thing.
Snowmass
Line Up and Wait
No, it's the same type of engine using the same aluminum and steel . The Porsche 911 engine was used in, I think, Mooneys.
Oil film strength is quite high and the colder the stronger. A different rate of thermal expansion does occur between the aluminum crankcase and the steel crankshaft but not between the steel crankshaft and the steel connecting rods so, if this were a real problem, we would regularly see scored main bearings but not scored rod bearings in the same engine. Therefore, the oil film strength must use the elasticity of the crankcase to prevent metal to metal contact. Another way you can test this is to see if you can hand turn the prop at very cold temps. If you can then it's not metal to metal.
I have been through this many times and it gets tedious so end of discussion for me.
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MountainDude
Whoever pointed to Mike Busch's article, thank you. Here is the article:
https://www.avweb.com/ownership/the-whys-and-hows-of-preheating/
Here is the relevant part (I bolded the important parts):
"Leave it on all the time?
There has been considerable controversy about whether or not it’s a good idea to leavean electric preheating system plugged in continuously when the airplane isn’t flying. BothTCM and Shell have published warnings against leaving engine-mounted electric preheaterson for more than 24 hours prior to flight. However, these cautions are really applicable primarily to single-point heaters such as oil pan heaters. The concern of TCM and Shell is that heating the oil pan will cause moisture toevaporate from the oil sump and then condense on cool engine components such as thecamshaft, crankshaft or cylinder walls, resulting in accelerated corrosion of those parts. However, if the entire engine is heated uniformly by means of a multipoint heating system,or because the engine and propeller are covered with insulated engine and prop covers, such condensation is very unlikely to occur.
In fact, using an insulated cover and a multipoint preheating system that is plugged in continuously is one of the most effective methods of eliminating internal engine corrosion, particularly if the aircraft is kept in an unheated hangar rather than outdoors. If the entire engine is maintained above the dewpoint, condensation simply cannot occur"
I am going to plug in my pre-heater and keep it on 24/7.
Thank you everyone!
https://www.avweb.com/ownership/the-whys-and-hows-of-preheating/
Here is the relevant part (I bolded the important parts):
"Leave it on all the time?
There has been considerable controversy about whether or not it’s a good idea to leavean electric preheating system plugged in continuously when the airplane isn’t flying. BothTCM and Shell have published warnings against leaving engine-mounted electric preheaterson for more than 24 hours prior to flight. However, these cautions are really applicable primarily to single-point heaters such as oil pan heaters. The concern of TCM and Shell is that heating the oil pan will cause moisture toevaporate from the oil sump and then condense on cool engine components such as thecamshaft, crankshaft or cylinder walls, resulting in accelerated corrosion of those parts. However, if the entire engine is heated uniformly by means of a multipoint heating system,or because the engine and propeller are covered with insulated engine and prop covers, such condensation is very unlikely to occur.
In fact, using an insulated cover and a multipoint preheating system that is plugged in continuously is one of the most effective methods of eliminating internal engine corrosion, particularly if the aircraft is kept in an unheated hangar rather than outdoors. If the entire engine is maintained above the dewpoint, condensation simply cannot occur"
I am going to plug in my pre-heater and keep it on 24/7.
Thank you everyone!
It's a fair question, perhaps better phrased as "What's the difference between some automotive engines and the airplane engines most of us use?"
- Are airplane owners more conservative about their engines?
- Is it due to the relatively weak starters and lightweight batteries on a plane? As you implied, oil is thicker at low temperatures, and is more difficult to move around at low temperatures, so more strain on the starter?
- Is this left over from the days of only having straight-weight oil available?
- Is the Porsche engine modified for aircraft, with some of the protections found in a car removed for weight?
- Warm engines just start easier?
- I note some places, people plug their cars in to keep the engine warm, so there is a limit for cars.
Because I rent, I'll preheat according to how the plane's owner prefers it done.