can a vfr pilot file ifr

flykelley

flykelley

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 7, 2006
Messages
241
Location
Waterford MI
Display Name
Display name:
flykelley
Hi Guys
Just talking to some IFR students and I thought I read somewhere that a VFR pilot can file IFR on a VFR day. Am I wrong on this? If not can you post the FAR/AIM number that relates to this? I may be crazy but I swear I read this in one of the magazines. Im up north so I don't have ascess to a copy of the FAR/Aim till late Sunday.

Thanks Mike
 
No. You may not accept an IFR clearance if you do not hold an IFR rating, and are not IFR current.
 
Yes, you may file an IFR flight plan, you may not accept the clearance though.
 
SCCutler said:
No. You may not accept an IFR clearance if you do not hold an IFR rating, and are not IFR current.
Click to expand...


Correct, but 'filing IFR' and 'accepting a clearance' are separate issues. You can file it on a VFR day, call CD tell them you'd like to fly the route as filed for IR training practice with a safety pilot and they'll handle you like it was an IFR flight, at least SoCal would back when.
 
Last edited:
You can do anything once.
 
flykelley said:
Hi Guys
Just talking to some IFR students and I thought I read somewhere that a VFR pilot can file IFR on a VFR day. Am I wrong on this? If not can you post the FAR/AIM number that relates to this? I may be crazy but I swear I read this in one of the magazines. Im up north so I don't have ascess to a copy of the FAR/Aim till late Sunday.

Thanks Mike
Click to expand...

No, you can't.
 
Palmpilot said:
That's what I tell myself about my 'flying under the Golden Gate Bridge' fantasy!
Click to expand...

You want to fly under the Golden Gate Bridge? No problem. It's easy and you won't even get caught...do it at night.
 
Henning said:
Correct, but 'filing IFR' and 'accepting a clearance' are separate issues. You can file it on a VFR day, call CD tell them you'd like to fly the route as filed for IR training practice with a safety pilot and they'll handle you like it was an IFR flight, at least SoCal would back when.
Click to expand...
You certainly can do that, but it won't be legal. The TRACON is not responsible for checking pilot privileges before issuing a clearance, so they assume that if you filed IFR, you're qualified to accept the clearance. Making sure you are qualified for the flight is your job, not theirs, and the FSDO will hold you, not ATC, responsible if you file IFR and accept IFR handling from ATC without holding instrument privileges.
 
Ron Levy said:
You certainly can do that, but it won't be legal.
Click to expand...


It was never opened as a clearance, just filed as a routing advisory and technically they handled it just like any traffic of VFR FF. I don't see where it would be illegal.
 
Henning said:
It was never opened as a clearance, just filed as a routing advisory and technically they handled it just like any traffic of VFR FF. I don't see where it would be illegal.
Click to expand...
I guarantee you that if ATC had an IFR strip, ATC handled as an IFR operation, and since that was done on the basis of the IFR flight plan you filed, that makes it illegal with you as the violator.
 
Let's draw the OP back to the practicalities of the suggestion and let others debate the legalities.

Imagine you successfully file, and get a clearance read back acceptably.
Off you go, even in vmc and what will happen?

Without the training, how long will it be before things go south? There are likely going to be some awkward moments between you and atc while you try to figure out what they want. Or you fail to perform and they call you on it.

Unpleasant. I wouldn't do.
 
Ron Levy said:
I guarantee you that if ATC had an IFR strip, ATC handled as an IFR operation, and since that was done on the basis of the IFR flight plan you filed, that makes it illegal with you as the violator.
Click to expand...


I have no knowledge of an IFR strip ever being issued, in fact as it was explained to me there would NOT be one.
 
If you were at an airport that had a clearance delivery service, you could file an IFR FP but put VFR/025 ( or what ever VFR alt) in the altitude box. This would allow you to get FF or service for practice approaches right from the beginning.
 
Henning said:
I have no knowledge of an IFR strip ever being issued, in fact as it was explained to me there would NOT be one.
Click to expand...
Then whoever explained it to you didn't know what s/he was talking about. Once you file the IFR flight plan, the strip is generated and goes to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the departure airport. After that, the controller handles it as an IFR flight unless specifically told "cancel IFR."
 
Ron Levy said:
Then whoever explained it to you didn't know what s/he was talking about. Once you file the IFR flight plan, the strip is generated and goes to the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the departure airport. After that, the controller handles it as an IFR flight unless specifically told "cancel IFR."
Click to expand...

Not the way it worked, BTW it was explained and suggested by a CFII who was also SoCal ATC.
 
flykelley said:
Hi Guys
Just talking to some IFR students and I thought I read somewhere that a VFR pilot can file IFR on a VFR day. Am I wrong on this? If not can you post the FAR/AIM number that relates to this? I may be crazy but I swear I read this in one of the magazines. Im up north so I don't have ascess to a copy of the FAR/Aim till late Sunday.

Thanks Mike
Click to expand...
If you can post to the forum, you should be able to access the FARs and AIM.

FARs

AIM
 
flykelley said:
Hi Guys
Just talking to some IFR students and I thought I read somewhere that a VFR pilot can file IFR on a VFR day. Am I wrong on this? If not can you post the FAR/AIM number that relates to this? I may be crazy but I swear I read this in one of the magazines. Im up north so I don't have ascess to a copy of the FAR/Aim till late Sunday.

Thanks Mike
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it has been mentioned yet that the weather conditions are not necessarily the issue. A VFR-only pilot cannot accept an IFR clearance regardless of the weather conditions. The reason is the "or" that I have highlighted in 14 CFR 61.3(e) below:

(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:

(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;

(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;

(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or

(4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating and airship class rating.
Click to expand...

Perhaps what you read about in the magazine was the filing of an IFR flight plan with "VFR" and a VFR altitude in the altitude block as mentioned in post #18, which some people do as a way of expediting VFR flight following.

The important thing is that if ATC misunderstands what you're requesting and says "cleared to" your destination, and gives you an altitude and route to that destination, that imples that they are giving you an IFR clearance. In that case you should say "unable IFR" and tell them that you just want VFR advisories.

As for the practice procedure that Henning described in post #4, I haven't heard of that. Of course that doesn't prove that it doesn't exist, but if I were doing that, I would want to make sure that there was an explicit understanding between myself and ATC that the flight was being conducted under visual flight rules, not instrument flight rules, unless there was an instrument rated and current pilot at one of the control seats, who was willing to act as pilot in command while I operated the controls.
 
Last edited:
Captain said:
You want to fly under the Golden Gate Bridge? No problem. It's easy and you won't even get caught...do it at night.
Click to expand...

I guess I don't really want to do it all that much!

Some things are more fun to fantasize about than to do. In reality, flying legally (or at least TRYING to :D) is enough fun for me.
 
Learned another interesting thing on the way home from Gaston's.

If you file via electronic means (in this case, Foreflight), the flight plan goes straight to the controlling facility and the AFSS folks can't even pull it up.

If you want any info on weather along your route of flight, you'll have to give the AFSS briefer the entire route again.

Stupidness. Utter stupidness.

I'm sorry but I can't easily bring myself to the conclusion that the same folks who built that data system aren't going to royally screw up NexGen in interesting and silly ways.

AFSS should be able to pull up what was filed. How dumb.
 
Um... the illegal action is accepting an IFR clearance as PIC when one is not rated/current.

Folks file IFR plans for the SFRA all the time - it's a hack to get the flight plan into the system since ATC has to monitor the flight. No violation for doing that. More than once someone has forgotten to put in the SFRA remarks and had to fix it with ATC when they called for the code "sorry I'm not IFR I just need the SFRA code". No foul.

Instrument students can file IFR flight plans naming their rated/current CFII as PIC. And then the aircraft can accept the IFR clearance.

As far as practicing instrument stuff while in VFR, it's best to just call ATC in the air and make the request. Depending on the facilities involved, they may assign a code and generate a strip. Just be sure to listen for "maintain VFR", and if there's any doubt remind them that you're VFR. ATC make mistakes too now and then.
 
The topic has been pretty well analyzed and the guideline is clear, as a VR pilot you may not enter the IFR flight control system without meeting the rating and currency requirements..
There is a window in that however...
As a VFR pilot you can ask for practice IFR approaches... ATC will accept the request and give you a squawk...
Then they will specifically instruct you to remain VFR at all times...
They will also when maneuvering you in the area for the next approach keep you at VFR altitudes (+500)
Other than those two details you are for all practical purposes handling the aircraft as you would on an IFR flight plan ... Good experience and good practice for taking the rating... Be wary of developing bad habits though - get some CFI time before you do it alone...
 
My understanding is that a non-instrument rated pilot may file an IFR flight plan but may not accept a release. Let's say you do it anyway and somewhere along the trip ATC directs you to do something that you have not been trained in or practiced, such as fly through clouds or fly the full procedure of a complex instrument approach. Under VFR you decide what to do and when to do it and ATC occasionally participates mostly as an observer. Under IFR you dance with ATC as a partner in the whole affair from takeoff roll to landing. Accepting an IFR clearance is an acceptance of the full terms of the partnership with ATC. You will be expected to strictly comply with all ATC directives in accordance with the instrument PTS so you had better be fully trained and proficient in the complete range of instrument procedures before accepting an IFR release. Any deviations on your part because of misunderstanding of ATC directives or sloppy executions may result in an ATC directive to call a certain telephone number when you land and a possible follow up meeting with the FSDO.
 
Maybe I'm rusty but in DUATS, for a SFRA plan doesn't one file IFR with SFRA as a remark?
 
My question is why would you want to? You could easily call for practice approaches from the ground (if your tower supported that) and request a STAR departure to some approach if you wanted the practice, or you could simply depart on an IFR route and call for practice approaches later. Of course you would have to maintain VFR altitudes.
 
Henning said:
You can also sneak under with low clouds and skirt around to Maverick's and Half Moon Bay, no one seems to notice...:dunno:
Click to expand...

Wellllll............. Visibility is as determined by the pilot.....
 
TMetzinger said:
Folks file IFR plans for the SFRA all the time - it's a hack to get the flight plan into the system since ATC has to monitor the flight.
Click to expand...
Yes, instrument-rated pilots do that all the time, but if they aren't instrument rated, they file a DC SFRA flight plan, not an IFR flight plan, and ATC can tell the difference.

Instrument students can file IFR flight plans naming their rated/current CFII as PIC. And then the aircraft can accept the IFR clearance.
Click to expand...
Right -- as long as that instructor is qualified and current to be PIC under IFR. But that's not what the OP or Henning suggested.
 
Dr. O said:
As a VFR pilot you can ask for practice IFR approaches...
Click to expand...
Actually, you can ask for practice instrument approaches. You cannot ask for and accept "practice IFR" unless you're instrument rated and current.

ATC will accept the request and give you a squawk...
Then they will specifically instruct you to remain VFR at all times...
Click to expand...
Exactly.
They will also when maneuvering you in the area for the next approach keep you at VFR altitudes (+500)
Click to expand...
No, they won't. Usually, they'll tell you to "maintain VFR" and then altitude is entirely your discretion. Only in B/C airspace will they assign altitudes, and those altitudes do not have to be +500's.
 
TMetzinger said:
No, there isn't.

You check the IFR box, put in VFR/025 (or other altitude) in the altitude box, and put DC SFRA DUATS in the remarks.
Click to expand...
Well, there used to be. I see it's not there any more. However, that "DC SFRA" in the Remarks block is essential, and it means it is not actually an IFR flight plan even if it looks like a lot like one. Leave out that remark, and you are telling them you are instrument rated and current to accept the real, no-foolin' IFR clearance which you have requested and are going to receive from ATC.
 
Ron Levy said:
Well, there used to be. I see it's not there any more. However, that "DC SFRA" in the Remarks block is essential, and it means it is not actually an IFR flight plan even if it looks like a lot like one. Leave out that remark, and you are telling them you are instrument rated and current to accept the real, no-foolin' IFR clearance which you have requested and are going to receive from ATC.
Click to expand...

Yep.

Even with it in.. sometimes ATC gets it confused, particularly if the controller on your SFRA departure hands you off to another sector, and the new guy thinks you're IFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, you can ask for practice instrument approaches. You cannot ask for and accept "practice IFR" unless you're instrument rated and current.
Click to expand...

I had to think about that for a minute, but yes.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top