Can a Catto prop be put on a certified plane?

VanDy said:
The TCDS says its certification basis is CAR 3, which states this: § 3.416 Propellers.
(a) Propellers installed in certificated airplanes shall be of a type which has been certificated in accordance with the provisions of Part 14 of this chapter.
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docmirror said:
Thanks, I'm not remotely up on the parts/acc regs, but props are pretty important so it would make sense it needs it's own TC. The wording in the CAR TCDS though does seem rather vague.

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What's vague about that?


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James331 said:
All the metal props I've seen have metal on the leading edges, does that make them all composite?


Honestly I'm not trying to say I know anything much on this subject, just find some of the ambiguity interesting.
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Metal props with metal leading edges, hmmm, have to think about that one.
 
James331 said:
All the metal props I've seen have metal on the leading edges, does that make them all composite?

Honestly I'm not trying to say I know anything much on this subject, just find some of the ambiguity interesting.
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I'm going to assume that was a typo, and you meant wood props with metal leading edges. I suppose it depends upont what the manufacturer calls it. Catto calls their props composite.
 
GlennAB1 said:
I'm going to assume that was a typo, and you meant wood props with metal leading edges. I suppose it depends upont what the manufacturer calls it. Catto calls their props composite.
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That.
 
RoscoeT said:
Put the metal prop on before you take it in for annual and pull it back off after you get it back...if you don't care about the chance of insurance claim issues or getting ramped by a knowledgeable fed. But why would you want a Catto on the Grumman? Won't perform any better. Less vibration is about all.
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Increased useful load and I find it hard to believe that I want see any improved performance from a propeller that has almost 50 years newer technology backing it. Add to that smoother running and better looking and what's not to like?
 
James331 said:
All the metal wood props I've seen have metal on the leading edges, does that make them all composite?


Honestly I'm not trying to say I know anything much on this subject, just find some of the ambiguity interesting.
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Sensenich makes wood props that have metal leading edges. They are not known as composite propellers. They are certified as wooden props.
 
Dan Thomas said:
Sensenich makes wood props that have metal leading edges. They are not known as composite propellers. They are certified as wooden props.
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I was thinking the same thing. A few days ago I was propping a 'wood' prop on a small plane with nickel leading edge. Still considered wood.
 
GlennAB1 said:
If it is wood combined with anything else it is composite.
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That makes every wooden prop in history a composite.. they are glued up from (laminated) wood.
 
GlennAB1 said:
'Course, you do a little internet surfing and you will find; wood, in itself, is technically a composite.
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Yep,,,,, BTDT. It is.

Any substance that requires two different components in its structure is a composite, But that does not mean wood is a plastic reinforced glass structure.

Common sense terms = Wood comes from a tree, composites are man made chemicals mixed to produce a structure. (Fiber glass)

Sensenich manufacture many wood props, they wrap the tips in glass and place a brass guard in the leading edge, and it requires a steel hub..
That is a wooden prop.

Folks here read what they want to see, then nit pic to up the post count.. cope with it.
 
Tom-D said:
Yep,,,,, BTDT. It is.

Any substance that requires two different components in its structure is a composite, But that does not mean wood is a plastic reinforced glass structure.

Common sense terms = Wood comes from a tree, composites are man made chemicals mixed to produce a structure. (Fiber glass)

Sensenich manufacture many wood props, they wrap the tips in glass and place a brass guard in the leading edge, and it requires a steel hub..
That is a wooden prop.

Folks here read what they want to see, then nit pic to up the post count.. cope with it.
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Well, I've heard my brother, with the Physics degree from MIT, say: "Everything can be broken down to a chemical level."
 
GlennAB1 said:
Well, I've heard my brother, with the Physics degree from MIT, say: "Everything can be broken down to a chemical level."
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How astute, but we here at POH must analyze every aspect.

But I have a better solution.. that is KISS, "Keep it simple stupid".

Which is only attained here on rare occasions.
 
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Tom-D said:
How astute, but we here at POH must analyze every aspect.

But I have a better solution.. that is KISS, "Keep it simple stupid".

Which is only attained here on rare occasions.
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Maybe if it were gonna drive me to drinkin, but I doubt it will.

And, there's no way on Earth that I could ever catch up with your post count.

But, in the most simple terms; wood is mostly Carbon, and so are CFRP composites.
 
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Grum.Man said:
Increased useful load and I find it hard to believe that I want see any improved performance from a propeller that has almost 50 years newer technology backing it. Add to that smoother running and better looking and what's not to like?
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If I were you I'd forget it. You'd spend several thousand for the prop, only drop between 10-15 lbs and not see extra performance assuming it's comparably pitched to your metal prop. You'd be amazed how well the aerodynamicists of the 30's figured out prop blade design. It is hard to beat the performance of a metal prop due to its rigidity. Other materials generally involve compromises to achieve other goals. All that on top of the legality risk for you.
 
If you go up to Alaska and come down the coast, or some other place that is rainy, youre likely to be flying in rain all day. Thats hard on those flimsy light plastic props. Hard on an aluminum one but they can take it. Make things too light, they become flimsy.
 
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Dan Thomas said:
That alone implies pretty strongly that they don't make props for certified planes yet.
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Pray tell what a "certified" plane is? I know of aircraft with STANDARD airworthiness certificates and aircraft with EXPERIMENTAL airworthiness certificates, both "certificated" (NOT certified) aircraft but I don't think I know what a "certified" airplane is.

Jim
 
Contrary to the public belief here, when the TCDS says " Any wooden Prop" it means just that.

No manufacturer certifies all pitches and lengths of their various propellers. (length and pitch is a part of the model numbering system of propeller) there would never be another wooden prop made if the manufacturers were required to certify each one.
 
Question for Ya'll.

What is the proper nomenclature of the metal leading edges found on wooden props?
 
Tom-D said:
Question for Ya'll.

What is the proper nomenclature of the metal leading edges found on wooden props?
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Probably the same as helos. They call it a nickel abrasion strip.
 
Tom-D said:
Contrary to the public belief here, when the TCDS says " Any wooden Prop" it means just that.

No manufacturer certifies all pitches and lengths of their various propellers. (length and pitch is a part of the model numbering system of propeller) there would never be another wooden prop made if the manufacturers were required to certify each one.
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I believe this is why a Cato prop can be put on a PA-20 with the 0-290 engine, but not the pa-20 or pa-20/22 with the 0-320.
 
UngaWunga said:
I believe this is why a Cato prop can be put on a PA-20 with the 0-290 engine, but not the pa-20 or pa-20/22 with the 0-320.
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That is what the TCDS says. read it
 
So Tom, why don't you sign a Catto into service on a certificated plane and let the owner show the paperwork to the Seattle FSDO and report back what they say?
 
Tom-D said:
Question for Ya'll.

What is the proper nomenclature of the metal leading edges found on wooden props?
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Catto calls it "nickel leading edge," is that proper nomenclature by every manufacturer throughout history? But then again, Catto's are composite.

How about "sheathing" or "shield"
 
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Tom-D said:
Contrary to the public belief here, when the TCDS says " Any wooden Prop" it means just that.



No manufacturer certifies all pitches and lengths of their various propellers. (length and pitch is a part of the model numbering system of propeller) there would never be another wooden prop made if the manufacturers were required to certify each one.
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What about the excerpt from CAR3 I posted? That is what the airplane was certified to


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Stewartb said:
So Tom, why don't you sign a Catto into service on a certificated plane and let the owner show the paperwork to the Seattle FSDO and report back what they say?
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I don't have a customer that wants one.
 
VanDy said:
What about the excerpt from CAR3 I posted?
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Catto wasn't around when Car rules applied. :)

the TCDS is a carry over with out a wording change. it still says "ANY wooden prop that will" yada yada.

when you read the whole para you referenced you will see it refers to part 14 for the certifications of propellers for commercial use.
 
Tom-D said:
Contrary to the public belief here, when the TCDS says " Any wooden Prop" it means just that.
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So I can carve a 4x4 into a propeller and stick it on my commercially-registered Colt and use the airplane for flight training?
 
Dan Thomas said:
So I can carve a 4x4 into a propeller and stick it on my commercially-registered Colt and use the airplane for flight training?
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When was that requirement placed in the question?

Does the TCDS make any statement as to usage?
 
Dan Thomas said:
So I can carve a 4x4 into a propeller and stick it on my commercially-registered Colt and use the airplane for flight training?
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How do you do that?

Let's keep it real.
 
Stewartb said:
So Tom, why don't you sign a Catto into service on a certificated plane and let the owner show the paperwork to the Seattle FSDO and report back what they say?
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that because the people at the seattle FSDO treat every aircraft as a Boeing and expect to get a Boeing boat load of paper everytime someone changes a light bulb. what the regs really say have never meant much to them.

bob
 
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