Buying my first plane ... please help me avoid mistakes!

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LouisianaLady

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LouisianaLady
New here, so please take it easy on me. Eager to buy my first plane that I can finish my PP training in and immediately start flying.

* need a turbo because one of my common trips will be in the mountains (GNB )
* would be happy with a 4 or 6 seater
* currently training in a skyhawk
* budget is pretty flexible, but would prefer to stay around $150 ish, would be awesome to stay below, of course
* plan on eventually upgrading to a high performance plane, but want to start out in something that I can get very comfortable in and bank lots of hours in before getting in over my head.

What airplane would you recommend starting out? 182T ... 206T Or any other makes that you would recommend? I'm leaning towards the 182T because it would be easy for me to transition into it after starting my training in a 172, but I just don't want to jump into it and possibly overlook a different/better option out there.

Any ideas or recommendations are appreciated. :cheers:
 
LouisianaLady said:
New here, so please take it easy on me. Eager to buy my first plane that I can finish my PP training in and immediately start flying.

* need a turbo because one of my common trips will be in the mountains (GNB )
* would be happy with a 4 or 6 seater
* currently training in a skyhawk
* budget is pretty flexible, but would prefer to stay around $150 ish, would be awesome to stay below, of course
* plan on eventually upgrading to a high performance plane, but want to start out in something that I can get very comfortable in and bank lots of hours in before getting in over my head.

What airplane would you recommend starting out? 182T ... 206T Or any other makes that you would recommend? I'm leaning towards the 182T because it would be easy for me to transition into it after starting my training in a 172, but I just don't want to jump into it and possibly overlook a different/better option out there.

Any ideas or recommendations are appreciated. :cheers:
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Given your desire for Turbo and not high performance, I'm not sure what would work. A T182 is high performance (more than 200 horse power) but not complex (retractable gear+constant speed prop+flaps). But it only holds 4.

206 Turbo is also fixed gear, but high performance. It will hold 6.

Both would be good choices for someone transitioning from a C-172.

John
 
Need to know your mission first. What will 90% your trips entail? Speed requirements? How many passengers? Lots of cargo? What locations will you be flying to/from? Answer some more questions before you end up being told that a PC-12 or C421 is your best option.
 
Primary missions - New Orleans and Destin, Florida (prob monthly). 4-5 times a year, Granby Colorado.

Family of 4, but may want to bring friends/nanny on ocassion, but don't want to have to fly a 6 seater around when most of the time I will fly with 4 or less. But then what do you do when you want to bring 6? Hmmm...

No speed requirements, moderate amt cargo
 
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SoonerAviator said:
Need to know your mission first. What will 90% your trips entail? Speed requirements? How many passengers? Lots of cargo? What locations will you be flying to/from? Answer some more questions before you end up being told that a PC-12 or C421 is your best option.
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* Looking into Pc-12 and C421 ... :mad2:
 
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With your budget there are quite a few options. Once you truly define your mission,you can then narrow the models to consider. If you don't want a six place airplane,you have already narrowed the field.
 
Big plane means big fuel bills and everyone will tell you this; most pilots find it unusual to actually fill their seats very often.

Consider a turbo arrow. 4 seats, simple, with fuel to tabs you can probably haul 4 adults as long as nobody is especially hefty. If you have a couple kids they probably don't weigh much.. it might work out just fine.

*edit to add
I have not personally flown an Arrow but I do fly an Archer. It's basically the same exact airplane but with fixed gear and no turbo. My Archer is probably a little easier to fly than the Skyhawk you're training in. I would expect an arrow to be the same.
 
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T182 or a '79 Turbo Piper Dakota. Only 4 seats but you can fill them and have room for some bags and fuel. Easy to fly and maintain. Maybe rent a 6/300 when you need more seats.

The Dakota was available with a turbo only in 79. I haven't flown one, mine is NA, but the overall flying of a Dakota is very nice.

Enjoy the search.
 
LouisianaLady said:
New here, so please take it easy on me. Eager to buy my first plane that I can finish my PP training in and immediately start flying.

* need a turbo because one of my common trips will be in the mountains (GNB )
* would be happy with a 4 or 6 seater
* currently training in a skyhawk
* budget is pretty flexible, but would prefer to stay around $150 ish, would be awesome to stay below, of course
* plan on eventually upgrading to a high performance plane, but want to start out in something that I can get very comfortable in and bank lots of hours in before getting in over my head.

What airplane would you recommend starting out? 182T ... 206T Or any other makes that you would recommend? I'm leaning towards the 182T because it would be easy for me to transition into it after starting my training in a 172, but I just don't want to jump into it and possibly overlook a different/better option out there.

Any ideas or recommendations are appreciated. :cheers:
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Welcome to the board!

Given the mountain mission requirement, I'd still go with something high performance. In any case, there are no 6-place airplanes I know of that aren't HP.

For mountain flying, a 235 hp 182 or T182 (or TR182) is not a difficult airplane to fly at all, especially coming from a 172. You'll just have to get the HP endorsement (and/or complex), which is not a big deal and will probably be done concurrently if you buy a HP + complex airplane.

Given those XC requirements you'll soon want 140 knots or better. New Orleans to Granby would be quite a hike even at that speed. So folding gear wouldn't be a bad idea. The 4-place Turbo Arrow is a fast bird, as is the TR182. In my TR182 I do Denver to Houston in ~4:45 (theoretically on one tank although I always stop). TAS at 10k feet is 162 KTAS. Up high, sucking O2 in the low flight levels, it can hit 175+ KTAS sayeth the book. There are newer composite airframes that can achieve those speeds and more with fixed gear, but they are pricey yet.

For six seats there's the Turbo Saratoga II TC or the Turbo Cessna 210 and the Bonanza. There's also the six-seat Comanches but they are older airframes IIRC - and Cherokee 6 (fixed gear). One thing about the 6-place planes is that if you are flying with 4 people that gives you more baggage and fuel options than flying a 4-place plane with 4 people. Also possibly more room for those 4 people. If you choose to bring a 5th person then you're still good to go.

If your missions involve mostly long XCs then I suspect you'll be happiest with an aluminum RG or a modern/composite fixed - for speed.
 
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I would take a good look at the Cherokee six.
 
petrolero said:
Welcome to the board!

Given the mountain mission requirement, I'd still go with something high performance. In any case, there are no 6-place airplanes I know of that aren't HP.

For mountain flying, a 235 hp 182 or T182 (or TR182) is not a difficult airplane to fly at all, especially coming from a 172. You'll just have to get the HP endorsement (and/or complex), which is not a big deal and will probably be done concurrently if you buy a HP + complex airplane.

Given those XC requirements you'll soon want 140 knots or better. New Orleans to Granby would be quite a hike even at that speed. So folding gear wouldn't be a bad idea. The 4-place Turbo Arrow is a fast bird, as is the TR182. In my TR182 I do Denver to Houston in ~4:45 (theoretically on one tank although I always stop). TAS at 10k feet is 162 KTAS. Up high, sucking O2 in the low flight levels, it can hit 175+ KTAS sayeth the book. There are newer composite airframes that can achieve those speeds and more with fixed gear, but they are pricey yet.

For six seats there's the Turbo Saratoga II TC or the Turbo Cessna 210 and the Bonanza. There's also the six-seat Comanches but they are older airframes IIRC - and Cherokee 6 (fixed gear). One thing about the 6-place planes is that if you are flying with 4 people that gives you more baggage and fuel options than flying a 4-place plane with 4 people. Also possibly more room for those 4 people. If you choose to bring a 5th person then you're still good to go.

If your missions involve mostly long XCs then I suspect you'll be happiest with an aluminum RG or a modern/composite fixed - for speed.
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Thanks everyone! I'm having a blast during my search and love how helpful this board has been! Really liking the piper arrow IV turbo- would a Cherokee 6 give me enough power in the mountains?
 
LouisianaLady said:
Thanks everyone! I'm having a blast during my search and love how helpful this board has been! Really liking the piper arrow IV turbo- would a Cherokee 6 give me enough power in the mountains?
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Piper drivers will correct this if it's wrong, but my understanding is that the Cherokee 6-300 is the better option. The 265-hp version is considered underpowered for a 6-place airplane.

The other 6-place aircraft typically come in around 300 hp I believe.
 
When looking at options, keep an eye on useful loads of the plane you are looking at and getting recommendations for especially if you want to use it for long XC trips with family and nanny. A plane to burn holes in the sky with and $100 hamburger runs is a whole different useful load requirement vs a plane that can handle the whole family, bags and full fuel for a long XC especially at higher elevations.
 
Remember, You can have full fuel tanks or full seats. Usually not both...
 
LouisianaLady said:
New here, so please take it easy on me. Eager to buy my first plane that I can finish my PP training in and immediately start flying.

* need a turbo because one of my common trips will be in the mountains (GNB )
* would be happy with a 4 or 6 seater
* currently training in a skyhawk
* budget is pretty flexible, but would prefer to stay around $150 ish, would be awesome to stay below, of course
* plan on eventually upgrading to a high performance plane, but want to start out in something that I can get very comfortable in and bank lots of hours in before getting in over my head.

What airplane would you recommend starting out? 182T ... 206T Or any other makes that you would recommend? I'm leaning towards the 182T because it would be easy for me to transition into it after starting my training in a 172, but I just don't want to jump into it and possibly overlook a different/better option out there.

Any ideas or recommendations are appreciated. :cheers:
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Is there a reason you are not considering a Turbo Arrow?

Also there are many other planes and types that have after market turbo normalization systems. A turbocharged Bonanza is in your price range and unless you need the added utility of the 206, I would choose the speed and efficiency (and $$$ savings) over a T-206.

My first plane was a Beech Travelair with a Riley turbo mod. It was a twin I bought with 60hrs TT. That was a great plane operating lightly loaded in the mountains.
 
JCranford said:
Remember, You can have full fuel tanks or full seats. Usually not both...
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This is true with adults in the seats but I can get away with it because I have kids. Even when they are in their teens I should still be able to get away with full tanks (assuming my wife and I maintain constant weight... ehem) and modest bags.
 
Henning said:
Is there a reason you are not considering a Turbo Arrow?
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LouisianaLady said:
Thanks everyone! I'm having a blast during my search and love how helpful this board has been! Really liking the piper arrow IV turbo- would a Cherokee 6 give me enough power in the mountains?
Click to expand...

You were probably typing when she posted that. :)
 
My family is looking into a plane for a fairly similar mission and we are leaning towards a Cherokee 6. Also, it's a off topic but do you post on TD as well?
 
Don't forget to take insurance into account. Having a low time pilot with a complex 6 seat aircraft can get pricey.
 
Heftiger said:
Don't forget to take insurance into account. Having a low time pilot with a complex 6 seat aircraft can get pricey.
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This is true. But it would be pricey for a shorter time if the pilot is accumulating hours, especially hours in type, rapidly.

For a low-time pilot buying an RG they care about how many RG hours you have more than how many 172 hours you have. And once you begin flying the RG your RG hours quickly accumulate.

Still, your statement is of course generally true.
 
Heftiger said:
Don't forget to take insurance into account. Having a low time pilot with a complex 6 seat aircraft can get pricey.
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For the first year/100 hours you will pay a premium regardless of TT when you upgrade. In fact, if you wait too long to go retract the premium actually goes up.

After you have 100hrs in the type your rate will be the same whether you have 130TT or 1300TT. A lot of times you can buy down the premium with additional dual time with CFI that has high time in type.
 
LouisianaLady said:
Thanks everyone! I'm having a blast during my search and love how helpful this board has been! Really liking the piper arrow IV turbo- would a Cherokee 6 give me enough power in the mountains?
Click to expand...

If you keep on eye on DA, winds and gross weight a 6/300 would be ok. Turbos are nice for flying high but not a requirement. Plenty of hp is to do it safely.

A turbo Saratoga or Bo would meet many of your missions easy.
Just more $$$
 
For filling the seats, a turbo is nice.
But you will really like the 300 hp for performance.
The Cessna 206 or Cherokee 6/300 are good for that price range.
 
petrolero said:
You were probably typing when she posted that. :)
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I just saw the Family of 4 and moderate load. Time for a TN-A-36 or Turbo Lance.

If the trips into Grandby are light trips, you could use the non turbo no worries. If the Grandby trips are loaded trips, you'll want the turbos.
 
Where are you headed in the mountains? Are you sure you need a turbo? I like the idea of a turbo in my next airplane, but I'm not sure I need a turbo. If I had to choose between a turbo and air conditioning, I would probably choose the latter assuming the A/C works on the ground.

Now is the time where everyone throws in their own choice of airplane as the best right? Go with a Mooney!

Plenty of good options across brands. Cessna 182/210, Piper Arrow/ Saratoga (Six/ Lance), Beech 33/35/36, and in the 4 seat world the J and K Mooney. They all have advantages and disadvantages.

I would recommend looking to see if you really need 6 seats, or if you could get by with 4 seats in a plane that has enough useful load that you put 4 people in it every once in a while, or if you would only rarely fly with 4 people. All of the planes mentioned will carry 2 people and bags very well. Some will carry 3 or 4 with partial fuel, others with full fuel. Only a small group would carry 6. They're all fantastic choices.

Given the $150K budget, the cesuras and the pipers are an option depending on the year. The Beech aircraft would probably put you in a normally aspirated plane. The Mooney options would certainly be available in the J (NA) or the K (turbo).

The top end of your budget can get you into M20K 262 which many people say is the best Mooney ever made. If you're looking for a turbo, the M20K would probably be the most economical to operate if you're looking for transportation for 2 people over long distances. 194 TAS on 11.6 GPH at FL210: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOAiPjf6Q7Q.
 
smccray said:
Where are you headed in the mountains? Are you sure you need a turbo? I like the idea of a turbo in my next airplane, but I'm not sure I need a turbo. If I had to choose between a turbo and air conditioning, I would probably choose the latter assuming the A/C works on the ground.

Now is the time where everyone throws in their own choice of airplane as the best right? Go with a Mooney!

Plenty of good options across brands. Cessna 182/210, Piper Arrow/ Saratoga (Six/ Lance), Beech 33/35/36, and in the 4 seat world the J and K Mooney. They all have advantages and disadvantages.

I would recommend looking to see if you really need 6 seats, or if you could get by with 4 seats in a plane that has enough useful load that you put 4 people in it every once in a while, or if you would only rarely fly with 4 people. All of the planes mentioned will carry 2 people and bags very well. Some will carry 3 or 4 with partial fuel, others with full fuel. Only a small group would carry 6. They're all fantastic choices.

Given the $150K budget, the cesuras and the pipers are an option depending on the year. The Beech aircraft would probably put you in a normally aspirated plane. The Mooney options would certainly be available in the J (NA) or the K (turbo).

The top end of your budget can get you into M20K 262 which many people say is the best Mooney ever made. If you're looking for a turbo, the M20K would probably be the most economical to operate if you're looking for transportation for 2 people over long distances. 194 TAS on 11.6 GPH at FL210: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOAiPjf6Q7Q.
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The turbo kit makes the 4 cyl Mooney into a 3 mile a minute traveling machine in the lowest cost (certified) form. The reason most people who need to take 4 people traveling need a 6 seat plane is for the useful load required.
 
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Henning said:
I just saw the Family of 4 and moderate load. Time for a TN-A-36 or Turbo Lance.

If the trips into Grandby are light trips, you could use the non turbo no worries. If the Grandby trips are loaded trips, you'll want the turbos.
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I missed that too. Family of 4... you'll want a 6 seat aircraft. If I were in your shoes (and I've done the trip to CO a few times) I would seriously look at stopping somewhere in the front range and driving up. Jeff co and Centennial are both great options and not an unreasonable drive.
 
smccray said:
I missed that too. Family of 4... you'll want a 6 seat aircraft. If I were in your shoes (and I've done the trip to CO a few times) I would seriously look at stopping somewhere in the front range and driving up. Jeff co and Centennial are both great options and not an unreasonable drive.
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If you have a suitable airplane, I would not miss the experience of flying through the Rocky Mountains below the peaks for anything. Mountain flying is the most beautiful flying there is.

If you want to be safe you get a Seneca III or T-310R and keep them 10% light or better, but it costs.
 
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CollegePilot said:
My family is looking into a plane for a fairly similar mission and we are leaning towards a Cherokee 6. Also, it's a off topic but do you post on TD as well?
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TD? This is the only board I've posted on ...
 
TigerDroppings, it's a LSU message board. There's a poster on there who's name is LouisianaLady, I thought that you might be her.
 
My recommendations from buying my first airplane and doing so "real time" as a member here:

1) Look hard, look often, look a long time.
2) Good, neutral, 3rd party pre-buy. Find someone to do it who has no interest in results, but only completing the inspection, providing all the pictures and reports you want, and at a reasonable charge. If you call them and they're an @$$hole from "hello" they're likely to be one at "goodbye" and at all times in between.
3) Do not post too many details publicly here. No matter how vague you are, someone here WILL find it if its publicly posted and try to outbid you or at least throw in offers, even if they're truly "not all that interested".
4) Do not listen to any of the extreme opinions here. If it was a brand new airplane off the assembly line, someone here would find some reason to walk from the deal and convince you of it. If it was the worst deal on the planet, someone here will find a reason to tell you its the deal of the century and they will argue on the post I said not to make in point #3.

5) if at any time during the buying process you feel the seller, broker, inspector, or anyone else involved is dishonest or telling a lie by omission then walk.

Its your money, use it how you want, and buy what you think will serve you well. Pick a few trusted people who know their stuff and use your pre-buy inspector as your eyes and ears until you can get a close look as well.

EDIT: To add a caveat to #4... extreme opinions... not all opinions here are extreme. just ignore those that are. Middle of the road with pros and cons are probably fine
 
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^^^^thats pretty spot on advice right there but here's my 2 cents
You absolutely will not find an insurance provider to cover u in a C210 until u have several hundred hours ttl or time in type. At 150 hrs I tried 6 months ago and no way no how..
The best SE choices are Bonanza, Saratoga, or 206.. Any choice in turbo form.
I have an almost exact mission profile as you: new pilot w/IFR rating, ranch 200 nm away and TX to ID Twice a year. My budget was similar but I ended up spending a lot more and bought a T206. Great family hauler. Fun and slow by myself when playing around. Will haul just about anything that'll fit through the doors. Simple as a 172 to fly. Lots of good legacy 206s in the sub $175k region if you take your time and move quick when one pops up.
Good luck and have fun


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
With this awesome advice in mind, is it recommended to use a broker? I really don't have anyone close to me that I could find out if I'm getting a good deal on a plane or to bounce ideas off regarding negotiating, etc.
 
Well, let me turn around and ask you, what are your expectations from a buyers broker? Aside from pushing you to spend the absolute max in your budget, and charging you a brokerage fee, what gain or benefit do you expect from a broker? Will they stand behind your purchase with some guarantee or warranty of suitability? Any gain or benefit in price negotiation(they can buy it lower than you can)?

No question you need a A&P for any purchase, but what would you do different with a buyers broker that you aren't doing now?
 
LouisianaLady said:
With this awesome advice in mind, is it recommended to use a broker? I really don't have anyone close to me that I could find out if I'm getting a good deal on a plane or to bounce ideas off regarding negotiating, etc.
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No! They have an interest in your buying a plane. You need to find a purchasing consultant who can help you work through the process from beginning to end. You will learn a lot when buying your first aircraft. While it may seem the expensive way to spend a few thousand on a consultant, especially as this is more upfront money, the real expense is buying the wrong plane or getting a problematic one. Dealers love the newly minted pilot with stars in their eyes. That is how they get rid of the dogs on their lot.

Don't try to buy a plane that will cover 100% of your imagined trips. The capability to get the last 10% could double your overall costs. Focus on the 90%, which sounds more like flat lands. I would start the analysis by deciding if an aircraft hat can do Granby with a light load and low DA will do for you for most of those trips, with the option of flying into Jeffco and renting a car. If that works, then you can more economically meet your needs with a normally aspirated, albeit high performance aircraft. Then you need to decide if you really need six seats, or whether four will do.

Don't shy away from a complex aircraft. I got checked out in an Arrow immediately after getting my private in a 152. 35 years and 8000 hours later, I haven't forgotten to put down the gear yet.

Buying the first airplane is a blast, if you approach it the right way. You have made a good start by asking for assistance.
 
smccray said:
I missed that too. Family of 4... you'll want a 6 seat aircraft. If I were in your shoes (and I've done the trip to CO a few times) I would seriously look at stopping somewhere in the front range and driving up. Jeff co and Centennial are both great options and not an unreasonable drive.
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If it's bad weather, absolutely. And training on mountain flying is a great way to learn what is considered "bad". There are bluebird days when I wouldn't go near the rock pile.

But Granby isn't really hard core mountain flying unless you're in a C172. I think the OP should get mountain instruction, but don't be afraid to go up there if wearing a properly powered airplane.
 
Yes! By all means take mountain flying lessons for sure! What was the name of the well known balloonist, pilot etc. with high time who ventured forth not too long ago and died in a decathlon? Can't remember his name but he was very hip on mountain flying yet killed himself. Nice to "wander below the mountain heights enjoying Mother Nature awe struck" until you crash and kill you self and possibly others. I'd try a mooney first with two people and if comfortable after a year or two, proceed to bigger aircraft, more power. Otherwise I'd fly southwest.
 
LouisianaLady said:
Thanks everyone! I'm having a blast during my search and love how helpful this board has been! Really liking the piper arrow IV turbo- would a Cherokee 6 give me enough power in the mountains?
Click to expand...

300 horses should do it. it does not need a turbin to make the altitudes you need..
 
On brokers: They're car salesmen. Their cars have wings. If I could, I'd buy all my cars from the factory and never deal with any of them. If you decided to go with a broker, keep that in mind and you'll be okay.

Knowing that makes its okay to deal with broker. Forgetting that and thinking they're your friend or really do want to make sure you get the best bang for your buck makes it bad.

Real estate agents wont spend an extra $1000 worth of advertising and supplies to get an additional $100 in commission, Brokers wont spend their time trying to make you feel good and dealing with haggling too much for a couple grand commission either.
 
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