Buying my first plane ... please help me avoid mistakes!

You might consider getting your license, flying a renter for 200 hours or so before attempting the mountains . In that time you'll be speaking with many pilots who could help you decide what to buy rather than a used airplane salesman. Usually there are high time people around the airport who can oftentimes help a lot. Any airplane, in the mountains especially, can kill a low time pilot quickly that is not properly taught to fly them. It could save your life.
 
^^ what he said. I'm getting ready to go to colorado springs for 3 months. Taking my checkride tomorrow. Provided that goes well I'm taking a mountain flying course or something.

Also a really, really good source that I've found: Your local airport. Check the boards for airplanes. Get an idea there too. Someone will know someone. I still cant get my CFI to tell me how much a share in his cessna 310 are.
 
Brokers wont spend their time trying to make you feel good and dealing with haggling too much for a couple grand commission either.

Negotiating price is counterproductive for a broker, on either side. Just like you said.
 
Super Skymaster. Take out the rear seats, put it in the logs with new w/b and send it to the insurance company like that until 200hrs in type.
 
No! They have an interest in your buying a plane. You need to find a purchasing consultant who can help you work through the process from beginning to end. You will learn a lot when buying your first aircraft. While it may seem the expensive way to spend a few thousand on a consultant, especially as this is more upfront money, the real expense is buying the wrong plane or getting a problematic one. Dealers love the newly minted pilot with stars in their eyes. That is how they get rid of the dogs on their lot.

Don't try to buy a plane that will cover 100% of your imagined trips. The capability to get the last 10% could double your overall costs. Focus on the 90%, which sounds more like flat lands. I would start the analysis by deciding if an aircraft hat can do Granby with a light load and low DA will do for you for most of those trips, with the option of flying into Jeffco and renting a car. If that works, then you can more economically meet your needs with a normally aspirated, albeit high performance aircraft. Then you need to decide if you really need six seats, or whether four will do.

Don't shy away from a complex aircraft. I got checked out in an Arrow immediately after getting my private in a 152. 35 years and 8000 hours later, I haven't forgotten to put down the gear yet.

Buying the first airplane is a blast, if you approach it the right way. You have made a good start by asking for assistance.
Awesome help everyone ! Mountain training is a must for me and is def in the plan, especially since I have very precious cargo (my kids). The mountain flying will prob come much later down the road but will def be in my goals. The more I'm learning, the more I realize that I have to learn ! I keep changing my mind daily on what to get. I've gotten lots of great advice on this board and am taking everything seriously. Now to find a purchase consultant in lieu of a broker ...
 
I meet with people who take the used car salesmen approach and treat me like I'm beneath them, I can tell you it is of no help. Just like anything else they're good aircraft brokers and bad ones out there. The brokers job is to let you take a look and fly the airplane, present offers to the seller and facilitate the deal. In my opinion the private sellers are where you need to exercise extra caution, they typically think their aircraft is worth more than it is, think it's the best, most well cared for plane on the planet, etc. A broker has a professional reputation to protect, a private seller usually does not. We buy a lot of aircraft and I can't tell you how many times sellers chose not to tell me or misinformed me about major damage events, missing logbooks, incorrect times, etc. and I find out when I'm doing my due diligence.

When you find an aircraft you'd like to buy I'd recommend making a written offer and be sure it is subject to a pre purchase inspection and test flight if you haven't already flown the aircraft. Review or have your mechanic review the logbooks, good brokers will have digital copies for your review, I'd look at those before making a trip to look at the plane. Use a title and escrow company to handle the transaction, run a title search, handle the money, transfer ownership, etc. Always have a mechanic perform a pre purchase mechanical inspection by an independent mechanic who has never worked on the aircraft before. If you don't know of any, a good broker can recommend a local shop that knows the airframe. If you're feeling extra cynical or don't trust the broker then find one on your own
 
You might consider getting your license, flying a renter for 200 hours or so before attempting the mountains . In that time you'll be speaking with many pilots who could help you decide what to buy rather than a used airplane salesman. Usually there are high time people around the airport who can oftentimes help a lot. Any airplane, in the mountains especially, can kill a low time pilot quickly that is not properly taught to fly them. It could save your life.

The mountains can kill a pilot of any amount of experience as I have personally witnessed flying with the Colorado Civil Air Patrol. They can kill, and have killed, even experienced mountain pilots if they get cocky, lazy, or stupid (see Fletcher Anderson :nono: for an infamous example).

Total time flying over Kansas or in the flight levels doesn't add up to skill flying among the rocks. The skills are not rocket surgery, as some in Colorado and elsewhere would have us believe, but they must be obtained and maintained.

I don't think the OP needs to fly for 200 hours before attempting the mountains in a properly powered airplane. 200 hours in the flatlands do little to prepare a person for mountain flying. Mountain flying prepares a person for mountain flying.

I'd instead recommend the Colorado Pilots Association's mountain flying school. It includes classroom training and mountain flying with an experienced mountain instructor (C182 or better is highly recommended). The OP could fly her Granby route as part of that mountain flight.

And I'd suggest too that when the OP comes to Colorado, on the first few trips, pick up an instructor in Denver on the way in and do that flight up to Granby and back to Denver (a short round trip). Once you've flown that route in different wind conditions you'll have a pretty good feel for it.
 
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Awesome help everyone ! Mountain training is a must for me and is def in the plan, especially since I have very precious cargo (my kids). The mountain flying will prob come much later down the road but will def be in my goals. The more I'm learning, the more I realize that I have to learn ! I keep changing my mind daily on what to get. I've gotten lots of great advice on this board and am taking everything seriously. Now to find a purchase consultant in lieu of a broker ...

I don't know anyone in your area. That would be ideal. I am a bit far away, but if you want some ideas, PM me and I will give you my email.
 
Awesome help everyone ! Mountain training is a must for me and is def in the plan, especially since I have very precious cargo (my kids). The mountain flying will prob come much later down the road but will def be in my goals. The more I'm learning, the more I realize that I have to learn ! I keep changing my mind daily on what to get. I've gotten lots of great advice on this board and am taking everything seriously. Now to find a purchase consultant in lieu of a broker ...

If you have kids, don't shy away from horsepower. Horsepower is your friend. Horsepower is what makes you go up. The more the plane is able to go up, the more ability you have to correct for your errors and misjudgments that you will make at any level of experience. Horsepower is your friend, don't fear it, learn early how to manage it to your advantage.

Upgrading planes is expensive, when you buy, avoid the timid upgrade route, it is expensive and produces a worse result. For a person with a young family starting out in flying, I wouldn't recommend anything less than a 182. I know a gal who bought a 182 before lesson 1 and learned in it.
 
''Originally Posted by LouisianaLady
Awesome help everyone ! Mountain training is a must for me and is def in the plan, especially since I have very precious cargo (my kids). The mountain flying will prob come much later down the road but will def be in my goals. The more I'm learning, the more I realize that I have to learn ! I keep changing my mind daily on what to get. I've gotten lots of great advice on this board and am taking everything seriously. Now to find a purchase consultant in lieu of a broker ...''


Brokers are kind of getting a bad rap, while there are people in every profession willing to take advantage of their clients, most aircraft brokers I know, and it is how I make my living, are genuinely interested in representing their clients best interests.
The aviation community is fairly small, and word travels fast, most shady dealers are well known and generally avoided. When representing a buyer or seller, I disclose everything that I know regarding the aircraft, recommend all transactions be conducted by an escrow service, and always recommend a prebuy inspection. I would much rather lose a commission than send a buyer home with a plane that I know has issues.
In the last year, I have turned down 5 listings and canceled 3 that I already had listed, because I could tell the sellers were being evasive in their responses to some issues with the planes.
As mentioned in a previous post, if your in business for the long haul, your reputation is your most valuable asset.

Back on topic, I don't think the OP needs to hire a broker or consultant for the type of plane she is looking for, a good A&P with a lot of experience working on the type/model of plane will be her best advocate.
 
There are two sides to the brokerage industry. There is the selling side that is served best by commission contract, and the buying side that works on a fixed rate contract. As a buyer you are looking for a buyer's agent, and they structure on a straight fee basis and only represent your interest with no fiduciary stake in the deal itself. You pay straight up for time and knowledge.

The reason the industry gets a bad rap is that it is unregulated, there is no licensing to being an aircraft broker. This and the money quantities involved in the aircraft industry attracts a fair share of crooks, same as any other industry. That 20% of crooks creates the common perception of the industry. The 80% try to provide everyone a fair value.
 
In my opinion the private sellers are where you need to exercise extra caution, they typically think their aircraft is worth more than it is, think it's the best, most well cared for plane on the planet, etc. A broker has a professional reputation to protect,

Oh man, thank you for that! I got diet Dr Pepper all over the keyboard now. :lol::lol::lol:

That was freaking hilarious. Whew -- good one. Yeah... :rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
There are two sides to the brokerage industry. There is the selling side that is served best by commission contract, and the buying side that works on a fixed rate contract. As a buyer you are looking for a buyer's agent, and they structure on a straight fee basis and only represent your interest with no fiduciary stake in the deal itself. You pay straight up for time and knowledge.

The reason the industry gets a bad rap is that it is unregulated, there is no licensing to being an aircraft broker. This and the money quantities involved in the aircraft industry attracts a fair share of crooks, same as any other industry. That 20% of crooks creates the common perception of the industry. The 80% try to provide everyone a fair value.

Henning, in my home state of Arizona there is a license required, along with a $10,000 bond. But I think there are only a few states that require this. The old joke that all it takes to be an aircraft broker is a roll of quarters and a pay phone is still true in several states.
 
Henning, in my home state of Arizona there is a license required, along with a $10,000 bond. But I think there are only a few states that require this. The old joke that all it takes to be an aircraft broker is a roll of quarters and a pay phone is still true in several states.

Ahh, finally some states licensing it, probably due to Barron Thomas. When did they start? Only California and Florida license yacht brokers.
 
Say, someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't there a guy named Tharon Bomas or something like that in AZ that had something to do with -- brokering planes?



mmmmuuuuuuuuaaaaaaahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhaaaaaa!!!!

I keel myself sometimes. :yes::yes::yes::yes:
 
Say, someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but wasn't there a guy named Tharon Bomas or something like that in AZ that had something to do with -- brokering planes?



mmmmuuuuuuuuaaaaaaahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhaaaaaa!!!!

I keel myself sometimes. :yes::yes::yes::yes:

Yeah, but he operated for decades as a sleazy broker with no problems. It wasn't until the big money was floating all over looking for a place to invest and he started creating his own OTC Commodity investment vehicles out of them that he got into trouble. He was selling planes on future earnings just like ENRON.:rofl: Little guys don't get to play that game. ;)
 


First airplane? First car? First time in the sack? First beer? First cigar? First boat? First marriage?

Ain't no way to avoid mistakes with any of them. Just try and minimize the collateral damage. :goofy:

Jim
 
I think it was 2012, probably due at least in part to Barron Thomas. Washington state has licensing requirements also.
 
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