buying my first plane, need advice!

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csdelab

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Chris
Hello y'all, I'm new here. My name is Chris and I just got my ppl back in August and I'm working on my ifr training now.

It has come the time to buy my first plane and I do not know where to start.

Let me tell you a little about me, I have only flown cessna 152 &172. I feel very comfortable flying them as well as safe.
I'm looking for a 4 seater not a 2 seater so the 152 is out the question.
I'm looking for a 8 gph plane... 12 to 15 would make it too expensive for me.
Should I look into 182 also? It's a more powerful engine and an extra lever to think about (propeller)
I need a good ifr plane, what ifr avionics should I look for? Do I need auto pilot and which one?
When I started my research, people suggest piper Cherokee, warrior or archer as well. Since I've never flown them should I be against them?
my thinking is that I can always upgrade when the time comes. My budget is 50-60k.
Well, let's start with that...
I'm open to all suggestions and tips.
Thanks in advance, Chris.
 
Rent for a couple hundred hours and hang around older pilots and ask questions. The light will eventually dawn.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Rent for a couple hundred hours and hang around older pilots and ask questions. The light will eventually dawn.
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And when you rent, try renting different planes in that class, such as the Piper PA28's (Cherokee, Warrior, Archer), Beech Models 19 Sport and 23 Sundowner, Cessna 177 Cardinal, and Grumman AA5A/B Cheetah/Tiger, so you can learn what their differences are compared to the 172, and which you like better.

That said, it sounds like you have a pretty good idea of the class of airplanes which fits your aeronautical and financial needs (see the ones I listed above), so don't be pushed into going after more plane than you need or can afford.

As for avionics, an autopilot is nice to have, but hardly necessary unless you're doing a lot of long-distance flying or heavy IFR in busy terminal areas. OTOH, an IFR GPS is becoming more and more necessary for anything other than the lightest IFR operations. Beyond that, for IFR training and personal flying, you should probably be looking for dual nav/comms (one with glide slope), a transponder, and a good intercom/audio panel. Neither ADF nor DME is necessary, especially if you get an IFR GPS.
 
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Thank you for your quick answers.
I thought about renting for a while but it's money I could save if I had a plane :)
And in case I change my mind I can always sell it...
 
Renting is always cheaper than owning. Own a plane because you want to own a plane...not to save money.
 
csdelab said:
Thank you for your quick answers.

I thought about renting for a while but it's money I could save if I had a plane :)

And in case I change my mind I can always sell it...
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Flying an airplane still costs a lot of money even when you own it (and often more).

You can't count on the airplane appreciating in value, so the capital that you put into the purchase is likely to be less when you want to sell and upgrade.

So....my advice to you at this point, is to invest that money you would use to buy a plane so that it grows while you continue to rent until you are ready for an airplane you will keep long term.
 
That's a good way to put it... fearless tower
 
Buying an airplane with a plan to sell it in a couple of years once you realize it's not really what you need is a terrible plan. You will almost certainly loose money. Getting stuck with that airplane because you now realize selling it will cost you dearly is just as bad. Don't rush into this. Take your time and talk to different owners. Learn about pipers, Cessnas, Grummans, Mooneys, Beech. Lots of airplanes within your price range and you should learn some about all of them. There are also some experimental aircraft you should at least consider. Please do some homework, fly some of these other brands (there are separate forums for all the different brands and I bet you can find folks near you that will give you a ride). Take some time to understand both your requirements and the true cost of ownership. I became an owner not because it is cheaper (IT IS NOT), but simply because the airplane I wanted is not widely available as a rental, I wanted my own airplane sitting in my own hangar, I wanted to participate in its maintenance and did not want anyone else messing with it, and did not want to have to schedule my flying. For that I pay a premium, but I understand the cost of ownership and I'm good with my decision. Make sure you understand what you are getting into, make sure you choose the right airplane for you. Buying an airplane on a budget is all about compromise.
 
I closed on my first airplane just last week after being a renter for a few years. One thing that's obvious to me even this early is that renting will ALWAYS be cheaper.

It's important to sit down and figure out TCO - this includes pre-buy inspection and other due diligence costs, purchase cost OR down payment + loan, sales or use tax (if you have it), the obvious direct operating costs of fuel and oil, engine overhaul reserve, insurance, storage, annual inspection and on-going maintenance reserve, GPS database updates, and property tax. If you get those numbers and then calculate it out per hour based on the number of hours you fly each year, you might be surprised how it compares to renting.

Several of the things on that list weren't things I was thinking about when I started. My estimate is that ownership will run about 50% more for me than renting. I still bought because I wanted to go where I want, when I want, set up and care for the airplane how I want, and take longer trips without worrying about getting the airplane back to base on time. At least for now, I'm at peace with the decision because I feel like I made a well-informed purchase that I'll be happy with for ~10 years.

I loved renting a variety of airplanes: 152s, older and newer 172s for going places, 182s for going places faster, T182s for going places up high, G1000 variants of the 172 & 182 for great avionics, Corvallis for going places really fast!, and a Citabria and R44 for fun. Renting is a great way to try before you buy. You can discover the answer to a lot of your questions that way.
 
By the way, I also learned that there's always someone to tell you that you're doing the wrong thing. My advice is to educate yourself well enough that you feel comfortable ignoring at least some of those people. :)
 
IMO buying makes a lot more sense of you are buying something you can't easily rent, through a rock and you'll hit a rental 172/52 PA28...
 
Costs of owning a plane

FIXED COSTS
Hangar
Insurance
Annual

HOURLY COSTS
Fuel
Maintenance
Depreciation (reserves)

A 172 is a fine plane. Carries 2 and full fuel. Can be resold easily. Lots of them out there so finding one is fairly easy. You will have less trouble if you find one where everything works and has a low time engine. Yes you will pay more for it. Buy a plane with the avionics you want, upgrading is very expensive. Find a trustworthy mechanic. One that wont do things just so he has something to do (and charge you for it). You will be lucky to spend less per hour than renting though. You will find that IFR is not the magic bullet you think it is. Frequently you cant go IFR either. Too much ice or turbulence or Thunderstorms etc. Its nice to have though. ITs fun to fly in a cloud that is for sure. Good luck!
 
There are several books on the subject. I purchased two to help me clarify the issues. My parameters were similar to yours. I ended up with a PA-28-161. A -181 would have been nice but they are $10-15k more to buy. Buy the last plane first.

But, first above anything else, find out who is going to work, inspect this new toy. A good ap, ai can make a big difference. I found a frelance ai. We work together on the plane, kind of a partnership. Saves a lot of money and I learn a lot about my plane. There is a lot of maintenance that an owner can do but get the ap to show you how. Plus he went with me and did the pre purchase.

After 12 months owning and still happy.
 
Brad Z said:
Renting is always cheaper than owning. Own a plane because you want to own a plane...not to save money.
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Disagree completely. Renting is only cheaper if you fly very little. It gets much more expensive at a certain tipping point. Also, when you rent you're paying for maintenance, insurance and all other costs upfront, something you can be flexible with as an owner to match the ebb and flow of your finances. This puts less of a strain on your liquidity/cash flow.

Of all the things that need attention during a year with an aircraft, almost all can be deferred. Very rarely are they of the grounding kind. And you get economics of scale by doing them at the annual. A rental has to go in multiple times a year for these smaller squawks or else the renters stop renting, which makes it more expensive. Not to mention the mandatory 100hr inspection that you as an owner don't need.
 
stratobee said:
Disagree completely. Renting is only cheaper if you fly very little.
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You can disagree all you want, but your own track record (having to sell your Aerostar a year after you bought it because you can't afford to keep it) doesn't really support.

It is far more correct to say owning is only cheaper if you fly a whole lot (more than 100 hrs per year which most folks who own airplane's never achieve)

stratobee said:
Of all the things that need attention during a year with an aircraft, almost all can be deferred.
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This is extremely short-sighted thinking and exactly why there are so many dirt cheap airplane (particularly twins) on the market. Most of what gets deferred has to get taken care of eventually and when the deferred items pile up, many owners can't afford to address them.....and the maintenance nightmare goes on the market.

As the current owner of three airplanes (long complicated story) I am by no means opposed to ownership.....but unless you fly a whole lot, cheaper is not a valid reason to buy.
 
One poster suggested renting for a couple hundred hours. Another poster suggested that if he bought something and sold it in a couple years, he would lose money.

Based on rates for a 172 where I live, if he rented for 200 hours, he would spend roughly $28,000. If he bought a 172, Cherokee 180, or the like, flew it for 200 hours and sold it, do you think he would lose $28,000? I highly doubt it unless the engine cratered or crashed it. Isn't more reasonable to assume that if he bought something pretty decent (His stated budget should get him something pretty nice), put a couple hundred hours on it, he could sell it fairly close to what he paid for it? Of course, he'll have to eat the MX costs, hangar, insurance, and gas, but I say he's money ahead if he buys. Assuming 8gph x 200 hr @ $5/gal, $1,000 per year on insurance, $120/mo hangar, and maybe $5000-$8,000 in annuals and MX, he could take $10,000 less than what he paid for it and break even. In the mean time, he will have had a thousand times more freedom by flying his own plane, whenever and wherever the heck he feels like it.

I reckon the numbers could be different than my assumptions, but barring something catastrophic, seems like it would be a wash at worst, and at best, saving money by buying and selling in a couple hundred hours.

Pardon me if that doesn't sense. I've been up over 24 hrs.

Cheers
 
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Ownership is not about saving money, unless you count paying ~$200/hr for 4 hours/day while it sits on the ground for a week at your vacation destination.(what most rentals will cost) Then you save a ton of cash by owning.
Ownership is about being able to go fly when the notion strikes, and at a moments notice, without the scheduling hassels, and not having to write a check to the FBO before you can go home, (unless your tiedown rent is due).
 
Keep in mind that many buyers of an aircraft like a 172 are buying it to save money vs. renting. That means they try to fly the hours they want with the least expense and then transfer the risk to someone else. Musical chairs continues until someone doesn't find a seat and gets nailed with a big expense.
 
I bought my first and last plane several years ago and I was only able to do that because I spent so much time researching and flying different planes. I bought a 177 because it fit most of my needs. I can carry four but not far but I can carry two a long way. It's a stable platform with great visability. I have flown to out of town footall games and to OSH. With a o 320 and mogas and agressivly leaning I use less than 7 gph.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Keep in mind that many buyers of an aircraft like a 172 are buying it to save money vs. renting. That means they try to fly the hours they want with the least expense and then transfer the risk to someone else. Musical chairs continues until someone doesn't find a seat and gets nailed with a big expense.
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Which is exactly why the 'deferring maintenance' is going to cost you in the long run. Even if you never spend the money on the defered items, it is going to cost you on the resale assuming the potential buyer does their due diligence on the prebuy.
 
You can disagree all you want, but your own track record (having to sell your Aerostar a year after you bought it because you can't afford to keep it) doesn't really support.
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You're making pretty big assumptions there, Fearless. I'm selling it because I'm stepping up to something else, not because I couldn't cut it. And we're talking 172's here, not Aerostars. There's a difference in resale value. I've had enough twins to know you can't expect to get your money back on them, but that's not the point. I don't expect to get my money back on my old car either.

BTW, I flew my Aerostar personally 100hrs over TBO, and the previous owner flew it 300hrs over TBO. That's 400hrs for 'free' - in a rental scenario you would pay for every single one of those hours.

Also, they're renting for profit, not for charity. That right there tells you it's cheaper to own at some point.
 
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Comfortable in high wing Cessnas are ya? OK then, a nice 182 or 182RG would be a good choice. You will find either will fit you for years. If you got the bread, a 206 or P210 is even better! Find a friend with a well equipped 182 and fly it. You'll see!

NOTE: I am partial to straight tails but finding a really good example gets harder every year.
 
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Brad Z said:
Renting is always cheaper than owning.
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Not always. Breakeven is usually somewhere around 100 hours per year. That said, the average one-owner light single flies a lot less than 100 hours a year.

Anyone who wants to learn more about ownership costs on an airplane like we're discussing can email me for a copy of a paper I wrote on that. Emails only, thank you -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves, please.
 
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stratobee said:
You're making pretty big assumptions there, Fearless. I'm selling it because I'm stepping up to something else, not because I couldn't cut it. And we're talking 172's here, not Aerostars. There's a difference in resale value. I've had enough twins to know you can't expect to get your money back on them, but that's not the point. I don't expect to get my money back on my old car either.



BTW, I flew my Aerostar personally 100hrs over TBO, and the previous owner flew it 300hrs over TBO. That's 400hrs for 'free' - in a rental scenario you would pay for every single one of those hours.



Also, they're renting for profit, not for charity. That right there tells you it's cheaper to own at some point.
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I'm not making any assumptions, just going by your own posts over the last year or so. And your comment about deferring maintenance isn't going to help you sell your plane.

If you think most rentals are making a profit....oh, I've got a few national monuments I could sell you, dirt cheap!

As far as getting your money back- your right. You won't, and that is my point. You have to factor that into the comparison. That is why it isn't really a great deal if you plan to upgrade. Many who have been through the buying and selling experience have posted this here over and over and it's true: you are better off buying your last airplane first and sucking up the bigger insurance bill in the beginning than buying and upgrading. It will be cheaper that way.

There are times when it does make financial sense to buy, but from the initial description, I don't believe that fits the OP.
 
I think renting is cheaper until you hit 10-11 hours per month. But if cheaper is the goal, flying should be traded in for just about anything else.

I strongly recommend you spend time with a spreadsheet to determine the full costs of flying. Fixed costs include: hangar/tie-down, insurance, annual inspection, loan payment (if applicable). Variable costs include: maintenance, reserves, fuel/oil.

As for what to consider, you'd be a fool to look past the Cherokee 140/160 line. They will compete well with a 172 on performance and useful load, and can probably be found cheaper. To fly IFR, you can get by with a non-GPS plane if it has a KNS-80 in it, and maybe an NDB. But you're better off finding one with a Garmin 430W. An autopilot will be hard to come by in many cases, and I wouldn't let that stop me.

When you find "the one", get a pre-buy inspection by someone that hasn't been working on the plane. Better yet, get a full annual inspection. Check the logs carefully. Good luck!
 
The Cessna pilots assoc. has a spread sheet,for members,that takes in all the costs of ownership. Very enlightening. Used it when I purchased my first plane a 1962 172. If your not going to fly 100+ hours a year ,keep renting.
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you think most rentals are making a profit....oh, I've got a few national monuments I could sell you, dirt cheap!
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Most rentals aren't making profit because either their location, or their owners willingness/ability to run a profitable rental operation.

Done correctly, you can rent a C150 for $80 per hour and have it fly way over 1000 hours per year with that.
 
Ron Levy said:
...Anyone who wants to learn more about ownership costs on an airplane like we're discussing can email me for a copy of a paper I wrote on that. Emails only, thank you -- no posts, PM's, phone calls, smoke signals, or ESP thought waves, please.
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since I don't know your email address, how do I 'email only' you?
 
CAN ALWAYS SELL IT...

Chris dont make that mistake. Buy what you want to own. Don't buy till you are sure. in 2014 I bought my Cirrus SR20. Great plane. but now its up for sale so I can buy a SR22.... wish I just bought the 22..

David
 
Get a Grumman AA1 series aircraft.
 
Rent around, try everything you think you might like, and then buy something you will keep for a long time without the thought of selling it in a couple of years.

We are talking women as well as airplanes here.

Jim
 
Question for the ol' pros: How do you factor freedom into the equation? Can you put a price on that?

As a fairly new pilot myself, and looking to buy, I find that we always discuss the fixed and hourly costs of owning versus the cost of renting, but rarely discuss the freedom associated with owning. Do any of you owners rent very often, or are there any of you who have recently made the transition from renting to ownership? I'm in roughly the same position as the OP, and I feel that becuase of the freedom that owning affords, I am willing to accept the higher cost of ownership. I would suggest that it's worth a piece of the conversation. It is that intangible that makes the owning v. renting comparison not exactly apples to apples.
 
Renting can be a real PITA. It depends on where you rent, and how flexible they are with pop-up rental demands. If you're like me you don't always schedule your flying days in advance. Some schools have procedures that make renting after hours very easy, and some do not.

The rent instead of buy argument works best for someone who doesn't want or need an airplane that isn't found in rental fleets, and for those who don't fly at least 8-10 hours per month. Also, if you like taking a plane on trips for days at a time, renting is a tough way to go.
 
You buy an airplane for several reasons:

1) You want something you can't rent.
2) You need more scheduling flexibility than local rental aircraft can provide. This includes short notice flights and leaving an airplane at a destination for an extended period.
3) You fly enough per year that it becomes economical. Depending on your rental options, and the costs associated with owning an airplane locally, the break-even can be anywhere between 75 and 200+ hours per year; 100 to 150 seems to be most common.

One thing to remember--when renting, the folks renting you the plane are taking on the risk of mechanical problems, up to and including unexpected engine overhauls and very expensive Airworthiness Directives. So in a way, renting is a form of insurance, and like all insurance you do pay for it.

If you are buying a plane, it is important to figure out a worst-case scenario and plan for it... hopefully it won't happen, but there are reasons why most airports have several derelict airplanes!
 
Try to find an older Mooney in your area to rent for a few hours with an instructor. You can pick up a really nice one for 40-50k depending on avionics. Fly 100kts @6gph or flight plan 135kts @10gph if you want to go faster.
 
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