Buying an EAB that is still in Phase 1 - advice on getting it through Phase 1?

MarkH

MarkH

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
788
Location
Under the SFRA
Display Name
Display name:
MarkH
I am currently shopping for a plane and I have found one that (I think) checks most of my boxes. The problem is, it is currently in Phase 1 flight testing (about 10 hours on the airframe).
If this plane had 100 or more hours on it, I would be rushing to buy it.

My concerns come down to, I am a low time pilot, with low tailwheel time (its a TW), no time in type (its a Tailwind), and little experience in airplane maintenance.

I have ordered EAA's Flight Test Manual, and I am looking around Las Vegas to find someone with the skills, experience and willingness to handle some early test flights, especially the one that will happen before I hand over the money. (I am not comfortable flying someone else's airplane in that situation). The good news is, its past the 8 hour mark which according to AC 90-116 is where statistically most of the Phase 1 crashes happen. The bad news is, because its not a kit, it does not qualify for 2 pilot flight testing.

I look at this and my mind goes in 2 directions - One, I'm not qualified for this. Two, I am planning on building a plane one day, so I must know I can learn it (and I might as well now).

Any thoughts or advice on taking on this project?
 
Insurance will probably want some number of hours with an instructor - so needs to be past phase 1 for that. Your first flight in it would be solo unless you pay someone to fly the remaining 30 hours (not a bad idea IMHO).

Tailwind is pretty conventional rag and tube - the FAA A&P manuals cover a lot of that (don't recall the numbers off the top of my head). I assume a conventional Lycoming / Continental? Do you have an A&P lined up at the home drone for at least the condition inspection? You could potentially "grow" into the maintenance.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Insurance will probably want some number of hours with an instructor - so needs to be past phase 1 for that. Your first flight in it would be solo unless you pay someone to fly the remaining 30 hours (not a bad idea IMHO).

Tailwind is pretty conventional rag and tube - the FAA A&P manuals cover a lot of that (don't recall the numbers off the top of my head). I assume a conventional Lycoming / Continental? Do you have an A&P lined up at the home drone for at least the condition inspection? You could potentially "grow" into the maintenance.
Click to expand...

Its a C85, I have an A&P willing to work with it in Phase 2, but he works at a busy Class D. I am not sure I will be able to (or even want to) conduct my phase 1 from that airport.

My plan is/was to buy an experimental to grow into maintenance and fly while I build, I am a little concerned about choking on this first bite.
 
Your trepidation is quite warranted. The Captain has given excellent advice above. Have you seen this airplane fly?

You are likely aware that if the plane is moved from the original flight test area that a new testing area will need to be applied for. Not really a big deal.

I've done first flights on two airplanes. My last one was the plane I built and fly now (Corvair powered Sonex taildragger). All went well but I'm a cautious man and had excellent guidance during the build. If the airplane is built straight, it is rigged correctly, and the engine continues to run the first flight is usually a bit tense but an overall non-event. Worse part of my first flight on this one was bouncing the first landing attempt and immediately powering up to go around. I survived the second one. :)

Tailwind seems a great choice (I've not flown one) and rumor is that it's a fairly well behaved tailwheel airplane. But that all comes down to how straight it's built and how well it's rigged. Have someone with experience in that type (if possible) take a hard look at it for you. I'm always a bit cautious when a plane is for sale while still in phase one. Makes me think the builder found something they didn't like. What's the reason for the sale of this newly finished airplane?

Let us know how this goes!

TIA
 
Daleandee said:
Your trepidation is quite warranted. The Captain has given excellent advice above. Have you seen this airplane fly?

You are likely aware that if the plane is moved from the original flight test area that a new testing area will need to be applied for. Not really a big deal.

I've done first flights on two airplanes. My last one was the plane I built and fly now (Corvair powered Sonex taildragger). All went well but I'm a cautious man and had excellent guidance during the build. If the airplane is built straight, it is rigged correctly, and the engine continues to run the first flight is usually a bit tense but an overall non-event. Worse part of my first flight on this one was bouncing the first landing attempt and immediately powering up to go around. I survived the second one. :)

Tailwind seems a great choice (I've not flown one) and rumor is that it's a fairly well behaved tailwheel airplane. But that all comes down to how straight it's built and how well it's rigged. Have someone with experience in that type (if possible) take a hard look at it for you. I'm always a bit cautious when a plane is for sale while still in phase one. Makes me think the builder found something they didn't like. What's the reason for the sale of this newly finished airplane?

Let us know how this goes!

TIA
Click to expand...


I have not seen the plane fly. It has not flown since the builder passed a few years ago. But it has been run, taxied and put through a condition inspection recently. I want to treat the pre-purchase flight with all of the caution of a first flight. I am hoping to find someone with type experience to help me through the initial motions.
 
Do you have any info on what was or wasn't tested in those 10 hours. There is a big difference between the plane going through a formal test plan with test points over 10 hours vs someone just circling the airport for 10 hours. I personally would treat the airplane as if it had never flown before and price it accordingly. You are going to pay in the order of many thousands of dollars to get someone to be a test pilot for you and the process is going to take way longer than you think. Each time the test pilot finds an issue you are going to have to fix it and then get back on the test pilots schedule for another flight. It's not unusual for that to stretch out for a year or longer. Insurance is also going to be expensive if even possible to get. Many of the major insurers do not want to insure airplanes in phase 1 and those that do are very pricey. I looked into having someone do the 40 hours in my sonex after I built it and the few test pilots I found were in the $200+ an hour range and the insurance was going to be a little over 5k. Unless the plane is almost free you would be better off putting that money towards something that is already proven and out of phase 1. There is a reason experimental still in phase 1 are hard to sell or sell cheap.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
"Kit-Built Aircraft. Currently the FAA is limiting aircraft eligibility to those aircraft built
from a kit. These aircraft have the highest population and consistency from aircraft to aircraft.
Plans-built aircraft will not be considered at this time. There is currently no intention to consider
original designs for this program."
Click to expand...

Maybe a bit OT but I still question the sanity of putting two people in a simple, VFR only, experimental airplane for flight testing ...

:dunno:
 
This would be an excellent discussion to have before, during, or after an EAA meeting, maybe with a Flight Advisor and/or a Tech Counselor involved. Bonus points if someone who's flown a Tailwind is involved. Like @kmacht says, what was done with those 10 hours is important, and finding documentation if it is key to making it meaningful. In that it's been a few years since those 10 hours were flown there might be just as much to redo.

No way in hell have I or would I fly a phase I flight with or as an observer. Required crew for the test, certainly, but anything else, NFW.

Nauga,
with just a bit of experience
 
Last edited:
nauga said:
No way in hell have I or would I fly a phase I flight with or as an observer. Required crew for the test, certainly, but anything else, NFW.

Nauga,
with just a bit of experience
Click to expand...

Agreed. No sense on risking 2 lives to test fly a very simple airplane.

To the OP: Find an experienced Tailwind guy to go over the airplane with you. Remove all the panels, check the rigging, check the attach points, all that stuff. Basically another condition inspection in addition to the one in the logbooks. Whatever it costs, it'll be worth it. Then see if that guy or gal will put a couple of hours on the airplane to make sure it doesn't have any horrible characteristics. Get yourself a flight advisor to talk with you about the plan for that aircraft and the airport you plan to fly it from. Think about decision points, alternate landing locations, off-field options, etc. Talk about systems and emergency procedures.

Beyond that, you probably need more tailwheel experience and in something more challenging than a Citabria or RV. An acquaintance of mine who had a Tailwind described it as having "nasty" runway characteristics compared to the RV's he'd been flying. He didn't keep that airplane for long. I'd also check out the CAFE Foundation report on the Tailwind for reference on the aircraft's characteristics. Here it is:

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/31668866/wittman-tailwind-w10-aircraft-cafe-foundation
 
kmacht said:
There is a big difference between the plane going through a formal test plan with test points over 10 hours vs someone just circling the airport for 10 hours. I personally would treat the airplane as if it had never flown before and price it accordingly. You are going to pay in the order of many thousands of dollars to get someone to be a test pilot for you and the process is going to take way longer than you think. Each time the test pilot finds an issue you are going to have to fix it
Click to expand...

It is essentially prototype airplane for this manufacturer (the builder). There will be lots of things that need fixed, upgraded, modified, changed.
Think about that new car when you buy it, Think about all the accessory's and little upgrades you make to it. A new RV is even worse. Now think about it as they only built one of them and haven't fixed all the things that hundreds or thousands of other customer complained about. Then add Airplane and Airworthy to the equation.

I have been working with a couple owners that purchased a Sonex that had just completed it's 40 hour fly off. They have been spending more time working it than they are flying at a ratio of about 4 to 1: After about 25 hours they are finally getting it to probably under a 1:1 ratio. It still needs a few things upgraded to work better, things that work ok , but could work a lot better. If you are looking to build an airplane, buying a newly completed one will either cure you of that or cement that you capable of doing it. I am in the category that I decided a flying experimental airplane was as much or more project than I needed.


kyleb said:
Tailwind described it as having "nasty" runway characteristics
Click to expand...

I haven't flown a tailwind, I do have friend that has one, I should ask him. He currently has it stored in his hanger with the wings off and is flying his Pacer regularly. But often the "nasty" characteristic is more a factor of rigging (read Wheel alignment) than a design feature, although admittedly short coupled tailwheels require more attention. I have flown a lot of Champs most are pretty benign but occasionally I will find one that likes to dart off the runway if you give it a chance.

One suggestion for the OP. You should probably figure out who your CFI is going to be and discuss with him what he is going to require.
if you are lucky you might have a CFI is willing to do test flying for you, which means when you do fly with him he will be intimately familiar with the airplane.
Of course what you want is that High Time Tailwheel CFI that has built his own homebuilt and flown off a formal test plan with it and has a reasonable amount of time in Tailwinds. If you can find him at an affordable rate please look for that $10/hr Trainer solution or a unicorn for us.:)

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top