Buying an airplane that's been sitting

Jeff07W

Jeff07W

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Jeff07W
So I just read through a thread about a guy looking in to purchasing a Cessna from a guy that had been sitting for a year, followed by the ongoing argument of to pull a jug at pre-buy or not.

My story,
I found a bellanca 260 (pre Viking) with the continental 470 (I believe). The price is right, hasn't been flown in 6 years. Annual terminated in 2006 when a list was produced by the ia. A local a&p worked on the list and got it completed, but no annual inspection was done.
I'm taking an a&p that is familiar with these aircraft, and a guy I trust to do a pre-buy. I know as a rule you get what you pay for so I'm not expecting a home run for the price. I'm more curious to know with continental engines (supposedly age better than lycomings when not flown) what I won't be able to learn from a pre-buy inspection. How likely I am to go away thinking its a runner and have problems 50 hrs later. Or will my problems be evident in the first 10hrs?
Any advice is appreciated
 
Jeff07W said:
So I just read through a thread about a guy looking in to purchasing a Cessna from a guy that had been sitting for a year, followed by the ongoing argument of to pull a jug at pre-buy or not.

My story,
I found a bellanca 260 (pre Viking) with the continental 470 (I believe). The price is right, hasn't been flown in 6 years. Annual terminated in 2006 when a list was produced by the ia. A local a&p worked on the list and got it completed, but no annual inspection was done.
I'm taking an a&p that is familiar with these aircraft, and a guy I trust to do a pre-buy. I know as a rule you get what you pay for so I'm not expecting a home run for the price. I'm more curious to know with continental engines (supposedly age better than lycomings when not flown) what I won't be able to learn from a pre-buy inspection. How likely I am to go away thinking its a runner and have problems 50 hrs later. Or will my problems be evident in the first 10hrs?
Any advice is appreciated
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Where was it setting for 6 years? hangar, beach, or on the ramp ? was it run while setting? was it preserved? does it have chromed cylinders?

lots of unknowns here.
 
Post #1?

You are trying to get a deal on this plane?

What are you expectations for this plane?
 
The airplane has been hankered since new. The engine has been run very little in the hanger. He didn't advertise chrome cylinders so I would assume no...

A deal yes,
Expectations.... We'll.... I'm not naive enough to think anything is certain after sitting for so long... I guess in my mind worst case scenario would be a pre-buy that has everything looking good and 15 hrs later the motor seizes on my way to Lake Tahoe. Best case scenario I own a vintage airplane that is a runner but needs age appropriate attention every annual
 
I doubt it was preserved since the intention we always to fly it but never committed to it.... Hankered in Oregon
 
Well then, what is the year and what is the price?
 
Jeff07W said:
1966. $26k
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Offer $4500 as is where is. You are buying an engine core and not one in particular demand

Or if you want to spend 20+ you can get a flying Comanche or bonanza.
 
We'll I might be optimistic but I'd like to think a pre-buy would tell me if the only value was a core from the engine..... If mechanical &electrical systems are operational and there is no rot/corrosion in the airframe I'd like to think there is a value to be had.... But maybe I'm optimistic -- after all I'm currently flying cherokee 140 with 2350 hrs on the motor so I like to think positive :)
 
Jeff07W said:
We'll I might be optimistic but I'd like to think a pre-buy would tell me if the only value was a core from the engine..... If mechanical &electrical systems are operational and there is no rot/corrosion in the airframe I'd like to think there is a value to be had.... But maybe I'm optimistic -- after all I'm currently flying cherokee 140 with 2350 hrs on the motor so I like to think positive :)
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It's a Viking and one with a small engine to boot. You cant give away a nice flying example for 20k.
 
I didn't pull a jug, but we pulled the plugs and scoped the cyls to look for rust. Doesn't really let you see the cams however.

It wasn't the interior of the engine that was the problem in my case.
 
Do the pre-buy and see what they have to say. If you really want to see some of the engine internals, you 470 can get a small boroscope through the oil fill tube and see the front cam.

Be optimistic, but be realistic too. If you see too many signs to run, don't ignore them. If you feel good about it, and know you are going to need to give it some work to get back to par.. go for it.
 
JHW said:
Offer $4500 as is where is. You are buying an engine core and not one in particular demand

Or if you want to spend 20+ you can get a flying Comanche or bonanza.
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That's what I'd do. $26k is waaaaaaay too high.
 
Let's not forget it had a long laundry list of things that were 'fixed' by the A&P. not moving for 6 years means new tires, tubes, maybe the hoses, new batt, etc.

The Viking is a good flyer, but agree with others that $26k is a price for top of the Viking market, not a hangar queen. Reality which the seller will soon find out is about $15-18k, unless it's pristine, and has lots of nice radios(doubtful).
 
I would think that you are thinking of a lower offer on the plane,and you are doing a pre buy to see how low you should go. Apparently this is a plane you want.
 
Jeff07W said:
We'll I might be optimistic but I'd like to think a pre-buy would tell me if the only value was a core from the engine..... If mechanical &electrical systems are operational and there is no rot/corrosion in the airframe I'd like to think there is a value to be had.... But maybe I'm optimistic -- after all I'm currently flying cherokee 140 with 2350 hrs on the motor so I like to think positive :)
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The airplane your flying is on borrowed time. The one your emotionally involved with is a hangar queen with a doubtful future. Too many nice aircraft out there to fly for an hour then fix for 5 hours. Buyers market. Caveat emptor.
 
You should be as worried about the wood as you are the engine, and make sure your prebuy mechanic really does know his stuff... has the proper equipment to measure the moisture content in the wood, etc.
 
I agree about the wood being a concern... I believe we can inspect with proper tools and attain relative certainty

The bellanca on barnstormers is sold already--- it appears most current flying Vikings are going for low $30k and up I agree it's a strong buyers market. And ism trying to be objective and get emotionally connected to any 1 deal-- I also know every deal requires homework .... So I'm in your debt :)
 
I think the win I'm positioning for would be to buy it for $20k and put $5k in it and be able to have a flying cross country machine.
 
Jeff07W said:
I think the win I'm positioning for would be to buy it for $20k and put $5k in it and be able to have a flying cross country machine.
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How will you feel when you have to overhaul the engine 50 hours into your purchase? It hasn't flown in 6 years. It's just money.
 
Brad Z said:
How will you feel when you have to overhaul the engine 50 hours into your purchase? It hasn't flown in 6 years. It's just money.
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my concerns with this aircraft is the wooden structure, How well has it withstood the 6 years storage.
 
Tom-D said:
my concerns with this aircraft is the wooden structure, How well has it withstood the 6 years storage.
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Hey, if the OP wants to pay full retail for a broken, out of annual airplane that hasn't flown since the Bush administration, let him...
 
Brad Z said:
Hey, if the OP wants to pay full retail for a broken, out of annual airplane that hasn't flown since the Bush administration, let him...
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Why do you believe it is full retail?

Value is the buyers decision.

there are people who frequent this page that can always find a reason to not buy any aircraft.
 
So let's get a sense of what the current market is....
Weigh in on what you think a fair price is for the following
All with basic avionics nothing fancy with 1,000 hrs smoh

Cherokee 140 mid time nothing fancy but a runner ----- I would say 20,000 is fair, anything less is a deal

A high performance fixed gear ---- like a piper pathfinder etc. $30,000

A complex --- running bonanza, bellanca etc. $35,000

What do you guys think?
 
And as far as this deal... I'm probably most afraid of every other hour having to replace a hose, a break line etc. I guess that's the nature of the sitting beast
 
Jeff07W said:
So let's get a sense of what the current market is....
Weigh in on what you think a fair price is for the following
All with basic avionics nothing fancy with 1,000 hrs smoh

Cherokee 140 mid time nothing fancy but a runner ----- I would say 20,000 is fair, anything less is a deal

A high performance fixed gear ---- like a piper pathfinder etc. $30,000

A complex --- running bonanza, bellanca etc. $35,000

What do you guys think?
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Your numbers are off by 10,000$ if your looking for an airplane that rates higher than a 7/10.
 
Jeff07W said:
So let's get a sense of what the current market is....
Weigh in on what you think a fair price is for the following
All with basic avionics nothing fancy with 1,000 hrs smoh

Cherokee 140 mid time nothing fancy but a runner ----- I would say 20,000 is fair, anything less is a deal

A high performance fixed gear ---- like a piper pathfinder etc. $30,000

A complex --- running bonanza, bellanca etc. $35,000

What do you guys think?
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As for a Bonanza, they were made from 1947 up through 1982(V35B, diff type cert after). You can find the very old Bonanza under 20k in decent condition but they are a labor of love. A 1970-82 V35 could easily be over $100k for a nice ship. I guess your $35k number is pretty fair for something from 1949-1959 including the J35 which is pretty high performance.
 
docmirror said:
As for a Bonanza, they were made from 1947 up through 1982(V35B, diff type cert after). You can find the very old Bonanza under 20k in decent condition but they are a labor of love. A 1970-82 V35 could easily be over $100k for a nice ship. I guess your $35k number is pretty fair for something from 1949-1959 including the J35 which is pretty high performance.
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Solid point on the older bonanzas. I've been looking at the market and nothing newer then a 59' model worth buying is cheaper then 40k +- a few.

I was told to stay away from the E-model engines for reasons I don't exactly remember. But I think it had something to do with using an electronic piece that could fail?
 
Jhernandez04 said:
Solid point on the older bonanzas. I've been looking at the market and nothing newer then a 59' model worth buying is cheaper then 40k +- a few.

I was told to stay away from the E-model engines for reasons I don't exactly remember. But I think it had something to do with using an electronic piece that could fail?
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Well, I'm not going to disagree so much as to disagree I guess. The E series is pretty well supported, but there are some concerns. If the OP is considering the Viking, the early Bo is light years ahead of that for supportability. I paid a lot less than $40k for an early one, and I've been happy with them.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_855226_1950+Bonanza+B35+.html

I would say that a $35-40k J model might be about right. For the E series you can go down into the high $20s and get a nice flyer.

Back to the OPs dilemma I would advise getting the guy from Santa Paula to go have a good look at it. He'll find any issues on the plane, he's been working on them forever(Toomy? Towmby?, something like that).
 
Jeff07W said:
I think the win I'm positioning for would be to buy it for $20k and put $5k in it and be able to have a flying cross country machine.
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I think you need to be more realistic in your expectations. If you think it is worth $20k as-is, and that is what you are willing to pay, that's up to you. But I strongly suspect that you will need to spend more than $5k to get it up to speed. If you really like this airplane, the only decent way of knowing the extent of what you are up against is to do a full annual as the pre- buy.
 
docmirror said:
Well, I'm not going to disagree so much as to disagree I guess. The E series is pretty well supported, but there are some concerns.
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The E series are getting a bit long in the tooth and some of the overhaul parts are getting extremely difficult to find. Almost every prop for an E-series engine has some issue with it (be it a Hartzell or one of the Bo props).
 
It's been a very long time since I've heard of a proposed aircraft purchase that has raised more red flags than this one. Potential (likely) airframe issues, engine concerns, lack of use issues, valuation concerns, and the list goes on...

Even if the OP thinks he "wins", he still ends up losing over the long haul. At the very best, all he would be buying is the seller's can o'worms. (Or would that be bag o'termites?) That airplane became economically obsolete years ago. As it sits, it's only worth salvage value and that isn't much. This is one airplane that makes no sense to rescue. It ought to have a "DO NOT RESUSCITATE" notation on the Certificate of Airworthiness. :nono:

Note to OP: Unless you're looking for a full-time hobby / labor of love, take the money and get something that you can fly. This hangar queen ain't going to be it. :nonod:
 
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Tom-D said:
Why do you believe it is full retail?

Value is the buyers decision.

there are people who frequent this page that can always find a reason to not buy any aircraft.
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Value is the buyers decision. This sounds like something a mortgage broker would have said in 2006, before the crash! ( as he zeroed in on a no doc buyer)this airplane is old, full of questionable wood , hoses, tires, engine, etc. put a fork in it, it's done! Buyers make grave errors every day.
 
Someone want to post the link to the recent 'why do people buy junk airplanes' thread. Monkey gots to have that banana.
 
Tom-D said:
my concerns with this aircraft is the wooden structure, How well has it withstood the 6 years storage.
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Assuming that it has been kept dry I can't imagine that would be an issue as a result of the plane not flying. Granted there could still be a structural issue but doubt being idle for 6 years would be the cause.
 
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