Buying A Plane That Hasn't Flown In A Year

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WVTexan

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WVTexan
A guy at my local airport bought a 1978 172n last year. He doesn't have his license and it hasn't flown since last December. It only has 20 hours in the past 10 years and 880 total. It looks okay and nothing obvious stands out. He is now looking for a 50% partner. No special upgrades or avionics and he is valuing the plane at $50k $25k each).

Is this a 'great find' or should I stear clear? I'm a new pilot and this does come with a hanger (currently a 2 year waiting list). He said he would get a fresh annual and I'll get a pre- buy and test flight.

Any help is appreciated!
 
Where? Dry country? Humid country?

And not just for the last year. Where has it been for the ten years it sat essentially dormant?

That would make a huge difference in my mind. If in Florida probably no way I'd consider it. If Arizona probably little concern...after a thorough pre buy.

Oh

Welcome!
 
Hello Tim -

It has been in West Virginia and hangered most of its life. He bought it from a guy here at the same airport. Not too humid here, but winters can be a little harsh. I'm just worried that I'll buy in, start flying it and start getting into all kinds of issues that haven't been addressed over the past 10-15 years.

Positive side is that he doesn't have his license and isn't going to start anytime soon. So, I get a person to split fix costs with and he won't be hogging the schedule.....
 
50K seems steep for a 172N with basic avionics. Search Barnstormers.com and see what you can find to compare with.
 
Welcome, WVTexan.

I agree with Ron, in that the price seems a little high. The suggestion to research prices is a good one. You may be able to negotiate the buy-in down a little.
 
35 years. 880 hours. I bet it has all the old fuel and oil and vacuum hoses, and they're going to start causing trouble once they're asked to go to work again. All the cable pulleys are likely to be seized up with old lubricant. I'd count on finding mouse nests in it.

Of course, it may have been well looked-after by someone who just didn't fly much, and the above might not apply. But that's an outside possibility.

Dam
 
WVTexan said:
A guy at my local airport bought a 1978 172n last year. He doesn't have his license and it hasn't flown since last December. It only has 20 hours in the past 10 years and 880 total. It looks okay and nothing obvious stands out. He is now looking for a 50% partner. No special upgrades or avionics and he is valuing the plane at $50k $25k each).

Is this a 'great find' or should I stear clear? I'm a new pilot and this does come with a hanger (currently a 2 year waiting list). He said he would get a fresh annual and I'll get a pre- buy and test flight.

Any help is appreciated!
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I bought a plane that hadn't flown in 12 years and flew it 100 relatively problem free hours over the next year.
 
WVTexan said:
A guy at my local airport bought a 1978 172n last year. He doesn't have his license and it hasn't flown since last December. It only has 20 hours in the past 10 years and 880 total. It looks okay and nothing obvious stands out. He is now looking for a 50% partner. No special upgrades or avionics and he is valuing the plane at $50k $25k each).

Is this a 'great find' or should I stear clear? I'm a new pilot and this does come with a hanger (currently a 2 year waiting list). He said he would get a fresh annual and I'll get a pre- buy and test flight.

Any help is appreciated!
Click to expand...

I've had my plane be out of annual for a year when I wasn't around, no biggie if it's put away properly.

Now for that price, yikes!

A 172N for $50,000! It better have be a /G with full aspen glass, 2 axis AP and a 180hp conversion.

If you search ASI, barnstormers etc, you can find the standard issue 172Ns for 25k ish

Heck for 25k, if you're willing to look outside of the typical Cessna and piper, you can get quite a bit of airplane for that price
 
Even worse IIRC the 1978 has the H2AD with the camshaft issues. Add to that non use, probably no pickling oil.....

At that price.....RUN (away)!
 
Low time over several years ,is not always a good thing. Need to know if the airplane was stored inside,if motor was laid up properly . I would also get an appraisal on the aircraft,not take the owners value as book. If he is having an annual done you should use a different mechanic for a pre buy.
 
Thanks All -

I have think that his price is high, especially for the basic original avionics. Just not sure if I should pursue it in case it is a great plane or run the other way. My mechanic and the owner are meeting tomorrow. I guess I'll wait and see

The hanger is a big deal around here, so I really do like that benefit.
 
bbchien -

My mechanic said the same thing. He didn't say run, but he did mention cam issues and 100 engine inspections. I'm leaning towards no, unless the price drops under $40k.
 
bbchien said:
Even worse IIRC the 1978 has the H2AD with the camshaft issues. Add to that non use, probably no pickling oil.....

At that price.....RUN (away)!
Click to expand...

There aren't any H2ADs that have not been modded to the "T" configuration.
 
Tom-D said:
There aren't any H2ADs that have not been modded to the "T" configuration.
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Tom, is that a typo? There are no H2ADs in existance? Or did you mean there aren't many modded .....

Should be documented in the engine log. ;)
 
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WVTexan said:
bbchien -

My mechanic said the same thing. He didn't say run, but he did mention cam issues and 100 engine inspections. I'm leaning towards no, unless the price drops under $40k.
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The 0-320-H2AD is the only small Lycoming you can pull the lifters and inspect the cam with the cylinders on.

Very few of the H2AD s have not been modified by adding a oil pressure spray nozzle aimed at each cam to lifter junction, to lubricate the cam.

They do require the oil additive required by AD but that isn't much of a problem.
 
Geico266 said:
Tom, is that a typo? There are no H2ADs in existance? Or did you mean there aren't many modded .....

Should be documented in the engine log. ;)
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It would be a very rare engine that has not been modded.
 
Tom-D said:
The 0-320-H2AD is the only small Lycoming you can pull the lifters and inspect the cam with the cylinders on.

Very few of the H2AD s have not been modified by adding a oil pressure spray nozzle aimed at each cam to lifter junction, to lubricate the cam.

They do require the oil additive required by AD but that isn't much of a problem.
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Problem is if it's been sitting for years then oil hasn't been spraying on the cam. It's not just an H2AD problem, it's all Lycomings.
 
Henning said:
Problem is if it's been sitting for years then oil hasn't been spraying on the cam. It's not just an H2AD problem, it's all Lycomings.
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While generally speaking you may be correct, it depends a lot on where the engine is located.
 
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Geico266 said:
While generslly spesking yoiu may be correct, it depends a lot on where the engine is located.
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Not really. The guy who sits beside me everyday had the privilege of replacing the cam on a 150SMOH io360 that was based in Phoenix for its I entire life.
 
bartmc said:
Not really. The guy who sits beside me everyday had the privilege of replacing the cam on a 150SMOH io360 that was based in Phoenix for its I entire life.
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Was the plane parked out side? Have you seen the dust storms in Phoenix? It depends on alot of factors, open hangars, old T hangars that leak a lot of air, was the hangar heated and in the Midwest? I've seen Lycomings not started for 2 years, now flying regularly. All depends on who owned it, and how they took care of it.
 
Henning said:
It's not just an H2AD problem, it's all Lycomings.
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Not really, it is a simple matter of its history. A lot more Lycomings set more than a year go flying again with no problems.

All we ever hear here is the 2% that make all the news.
 
Tom-D said:
Not really, it is a simple matter of its history. A lot more Lycomings set more than a year go flying again with no problems.

All we ever hear here is the 2% that make all the news.
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Lot's of Lycomings of all derivations have eaten camshafts.
 
I wouldn't really be concerned with the time it has been sitting. Just get your pre-buy done and research the price a bit....
 
flyingmoose said:
I wouldn't really be concerned with the time it has been sitting. Just get your pre-buy done and research the price a bit....
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... and don't overextend yourself financially to buy in, since the odds are good you'll be fixing things once it starts flying again.
 
So if the guy isn't flying at all, how excited is he going to be to kick in 50% of the maintenance when you start flying and things inevitably start breaking? That will happen no matter what the maintenance history of the plane is.
 
How well do you know the partner you will have. Good pilot? Lots of hours? If he is financially stable why does he want a partner? The airplane is not worth 50 grand. I'd wait until I could buy one myself and it wouldn't be that one.
 
Brad Z said:
So if the guy isn't flying at all, how excited is he going to be to kick in 50% of the maintenance when you start flying and things inevitably start breaking? That will happen no matter what the maintenance history of the plane is.
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BINGO! Best post of string.

Partners need to have similar needs, wants, and financial wililngness.
 
Hey all -

Well, the guy showed up as scheduled - in a 4-door dually diesel truck with a 6" lift on it. Young guy, arrogant, bragging about not having to work or something and talking about "I only bought it to impress girls...bla bla bla". I knew it wasn't going to go well.

He said he can "splash some water on it and get a fresh annual and sell it all day long for $60k". My mechanic was with me, we disagree. The plane was pretty nice - but probably worth around $35k. I didn't even bother making an offer. I don't want to partner with him and I don't want to try and get somebody to come down 50% off of their price.

So........I don't want to hijack this forum so I'll post a new topic related to the Grumman Cheetah/Tiger. It has always been my "plan B" if I couldn't find something local with a hanger.

Thanks for all of your help!!!
 
We picked up a AA-5 last year that had similar history of something like <20 hrs in ten years. During our first annual we found some disturbing camshaft wear. Our routine annual turned into a $20k 8 month annual inspection.
 
A 172 N (N70611) went to TBO twice with no problems with regular oil changes and 2 cylinders worked on.

and there are many more that we never hear of. But the parts for the H2AD are 50% higher than the other Lycomings.
 
Before you do anything, do your research. I would personally steer clear of anything like that. It has the potential to be super expensive. It's a BUYERS market for sure. Do a FULL annual for your prebuy and pull a cylinder to look at the lobes. Look for an airplane that is regularly flown, one that has not been used as a trainer at a flight school and ask everybody you can find about the one you want. You'd be surprised what stories crop up. A friend of mine just bought a 172 with damage history but properly repaired for 17k. Make sure you get an oil sample. Stay away from any of the engines that have the single case for both mags. Nothing like a single point of failure for your ignition system!
Best,
Brian
 
brianwallis said:
Do a FULL annual for your prebuy and pull a cylinder to look at the lobes.
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Few smart owners would allow you to do either. Not because they have anything to hide but rather because there is too much risk.

I'd just laugh if you asked me to pull a cylinder on a plane I had for sale. No effing way.

And you'd never get permission from me to do an annual as a prebuy. You do a prebuy evaluation that includes everything on the annual's task list---and then some---but it's not an annual unless you buy the plane and it doesn't get logged unless you buy the plane.

I would never allow any logbook entries as a result of a prebuy. That definitely precludes items like pulling jugs.
 
brianwallis said:
Before you do anything, do your research. I would personally steer clear of anything like that. It has the potential to be super expensive. It's a BUYERS market for sure. Do a FULL annual for your prebuy and pull a cylinder to look at the lobes. Look for an airplane that is regularly flown, one that has not been used as a trainer at a flight school and ask everybody you can find about the one you want. You'd be surprised what stories crop up. A friend of mine just bought a 172 with damage history but properly repaired for 17k. Make sure you get an oil sample. Stay away from any of the engines that have the single case for both mags. Nothing like a single point of failure for your ignition system!
Best,
Brian
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Yea most of that is simply not going to happen.
What are you going to do with a single oil sample if they haven't been doing analysis before, you have no data or trend?
Single case mags still have two ignition systems in them. IF you are referring to the drive shaft itself--well you have bigger problems if that breaks even if you have two separate mags.
timwinters said:
Few smart owners would allow you to do either. Not because they have anything to hide but rather because there is too much risk.

I'd just laugh if you asked me to pull a cylinder on a plane I had for sale. No effing way.

And you'd never get permission from me to do an annual as a prebuy. You do a prebuy evaluation that includes everything on the annual's task list---and then some---but it's not an annual unless you buy the plane and it doesn't get logged unless you buy the plane.

I would never allow any logbook entries as a result of a prebuy. That definitely precludes items like pulling jugs.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
brianwallis said:
Before you do anything, do your research. I would personally steer clear of anything like that. It has the potential to be super expensive. It's a BUYERS market for sure. Do a FULL annual for your prebuy and pull a cylinder to look at the lobes. Look for an airplane that is regularly flown, one that has not been used as a trainer at a flight school and ask everybody you can find about the one you want. You'd be surprised what stories crop up. A friend of mine just bought a 172 with damage history but properly repaired for 17k. Make sure you get an oil sample. Stay away from any of the engines that have the single case for both mags. Nothing like a single point of failure for your ignition system!
Best,
Brian
Click to expand...

I think we can all agree that a plane being regularly flown is the best. Now let's look at reality and see that most of those planes aren't for sale. While it is a buyer's market, you can't buy something that isn't for sale.

I would never let someone pull a cylinder as part of a prebuy due to the risk of maintenance error. I would agree to let them perform an annual (but no logbook entry).

The bigger issue is checking for ADs. That can be done pretty easily.
 
timwinters said:
Few smart owners would allow you to do either. Not because they have anything to hide but rather because there is too much risk.

I'd just laugh if you asked me to pull a cylinder on a plane I had for sale. No effing way.

And you'd never get permission from me to do an annual as a prebuy. You do a prebuy evaluation that includes everything on the annual's task list---and then some---but it's not an annual unless you buy the plane and it doesn't get logged unless you buy the plane.

I would never allow any logbook entries as a result of a prebuy. That definitely precludes items like pulling jugs.
Click to expand...


I don't think a guy needs to. When I look at a plane and notice little things like corroded switch bezels, bolts, nuts, door handles, flap levers, electrical terminals, engine hardware, gummy-tight instrument knobs, tight/stiff engine controls etc. That gives me a pretty good idea whats going on.
 
Corrosion and dry rot are the main issues for that ship.
Only you and a consenting adult A&P, can decide.

I would be more likely to offer a deal (written) where you and he split the cost of the annual and you get to fly it X number of hours over a set time period (allow for bad weather) before partnership.
Have an escape clause for the event the plane turns out to be a money pit.
Carry renters insurance.
At the end of the trial period then (and only then) do you two set the value of a half share.
Have an aviation attorney write the contract. Keep it simple.
 
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