Buying A Plane That Hasn't Flown In A Year

Tom-D said:
Yes there is, a buyer pulls a cylinder and sees a nit picking discrepancy, then simply leaves. the owner now must have the cylinder replaced at their expense.
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Well then that is a stupid seller. When I've done it as a buyer I've already had everything spelled out in writing and a deposit/credit card on file with the AP doing the work.


Tom-D said:
You can inspect the aircraft in my hangar, at your expense,
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I had my Aztec flown from New York to Michigan for inspection at my AP's hanger. ~400 miles. Paid the seller's motel and fuel. I also paid his way back. Money was in escrow for this specific purpose before he went wheels up. In fact, I've done this will all three planes I've purchased.

The benefits of this go beyond having my guy look at it at his shop. If the seller is willing to fly his airplane on a long cross country.... I'm guessing he's OK with betting his life on it. Also, I'm going to be getting some time on the engine... at least a few hours on the oil/filter before we open it up.

When they dig in and refuse... (and most seller's with airworthy machines love flying their airplane) I know I'm either dealing with someone I can't work with and/or they are hiding something.

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To the OP/real buyer's reading this thread:

At the end of the day, if a buyer is reasonable with the seller, and protect's the seller's interests, and they still resist.... they likely know the AP will find an issue.

As I earlier stated, I purchased a plane in the last 2 years. What a seller want's (and I suspect most commenting here aren't selling their plane) and what they can expect in this market aren't the same thing. As a buyer, you should never take advantage of a seller, but if you start hearing some of the excuses offered here, go to the next seller.
 
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rbridges said:
let me ask a dumb question. If I were a seller and a potential buyer wanted to pull a jug to inspect the cam at his expense, wouldn't you want to know? Is there really that much risk?

not trying to stir the pot, but I know I'll be the seller one day.
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Tom summarized it pretty well. First there's the possibility that the buyer walks and leaves you a half-assembled plane. If that happens, then you're stuck with paying to get it back together on your dime and trying to sue for the difference. If you have money in escrow, then that can help alleviate that issue.

Now let's say they see something. If you were going to keep on owning the plane, you would have just kept flying it as-is. Maybe it would have created a problem, maybe not. Chances are it wouldn't have, and you wouldn't have done that inspection just for fun. Now you're stuck with something that you have to fix or sell as-is, and either one hurts your bottom line.

Then there's the other issue, addressed below...

Jimmy cooper said:
Why is pulling a jug such a big deal? It's done All the time. These engines are pretty simple and pulling a jug is a no brainer unless the one doing it is a real bumbler who should not be allowed near it in the first place.
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The problem is anyone who has their A&P can touch it, and such person may or may not be a bumbler. Now you're correct, it isn't that difficult to do, but since the seller is bringing his/her own A&P to do the pre-buy (I assume) then I'm actually placing a decent amount of trust in that person in touching my plane. I'm going to be rather hesitant about something like pulling a cylinder that could result in the thing coming out the side of the cowl on takeoff if it was put on incorrectly.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Now let's say they see something. If you were going to keep on owning the plane, you would have just kept flying it as-is. Maybe it would have created a problem, maybe not. Chances are it wouldn't have, and you wouldn't have done that inspection just for fun. .
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Seriously? You'd rather not know about a potential safety issue and count on luck instead? I might be grumbling about it.... but I'd fix it and be glad I did.

And I had the exact opposite experience with my seller that pulled the jugs. They actually fixed the issue so the airplane could go back into annual (it was out of annual). And they got that part on my dime. And they also knew if it was going back into annual even if I hadn't asked... that's what the AP likely would have done. Remember, these aren't buyer's asking for jug's to be pulled.... it's the AP's the buyer's line up to do the prebuys that are often asking for it based on he condition of the airplane and it's lack of use.
 
If you can't figure out how to write an agreement that protects you from the plane being left disassembled, or even getting a deposit to cover it, just...wow...:rolleyes:
 
Jeff K said:
Seriously? You'd rather not know about a potential safety issue and count on luck instead? I might be grumbling about it.... but I'd fix it and be glad.
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Some owners will go great lengths to protect their wallet. Even if it kills them.
 
Jeff K said:
Seriously? You'd rather not know about a potential safety issue and count on luck instead? I might be grumbling about it.... but I'd fix it and be glad I did.

And I had the exact opposite experience with my seller that pulled the jugs. They actually fixed the issue so the airplane could go back into annual (it was out of annual). And they got that part on my dime. And they also knew if it was going back into annual even if I hadn't asked... that's what the AP likely would have done. Remember, these aren't buyer's asking for jug's to be pulled.... it's the AP's the buyer's line up to do the prebuys that are often asking for it based on he condition of the airplane and it's lack of use.
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As opposed to the pot luck of someone pulling a cylinder and reinstalling it for no reason? Maintenance has risk involved. You seem to think that a visible issue found when the cylinder is pulled would be guaranteed to cause a problem.
 
Henning said:
If you can't figure out how to write an agreement that protects you from the plane being left disassembled, or even getting a deposit to cover it, just...wow...:rolleyes:
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You said it! In addition, why not buy an airplane that has been flown , cared for properly and wait until you can buy one yourself. I never had partnerships, too many horror story's. This airplane is very possibly a dog. Too many out there in nice shape to bother with it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As opposed to the pot luck of someone pulling a cylinder and reinstalling it for no reason? Maintenance has risk involved. You seem to think that a visible issue found when the cylinder is pulled would be guaranteed to cause a problem.
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Yes, if there is surface rusting on the cam, it is junk.
 
Henning said:
Yes, if there is surface rusting on the cam, it is junk.
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So when was the last time you pulled your engines apart just to make sure? Do you make this part of your annual inspection? Because if you should want to know these things and there's no risk involved, shouldn't you also want to confirm? Do you recheck torques on your rod and through bolts at annual?

My point is things aren't black and white. My experience has also indicated that a number of engines run just fine and even make it to TBO and beyond with conditions that, based on posts here, some people would think will lead to immediate and catastrophic damage.

Anyway, it's clear that my point isn't of interest, so I'll bow out.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
So when was the last time you pulled your engines apart just to make sure? Do you make this part of your annual inspection? Because if you should want to know these things and there's no risk involved, shouldn't you also want to confirm? Do you recheck torques on your rod and through bolts at annual?

My point is things aren't black and white. My experience has also indicated that a number of engines run just fine and even make it to TBO and beyond with conditions that, based on posts here, some people would think will lead to immediate and catastrophic damage.

Anyway, it's clear that my point isn't of interest, so I'll bow out.
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If I own it already, there is no financial risk in waiting for the cam to eat a lobe before repairing it. I never said it was a safety risk, purely a financial one IMO. Like I said, want to warranty the cam for 50hrs, I'd be more than happy to just fly it to find out. $12k is half the value of the typical 172 that has been sitting around for a year.
 
Henning said:
If I own it already, there is no financial risk in waiting for the cam to eat a lobe before repairing it. I never said it was a safety risk, purely a financial one IMO. Like I said, want to warranty the cam for 50hrs, I'd be more than happy to just fly it to find out. $12k is half the value of the typical 172 that has been sitting around for a year.
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Ok, I think we're more or less on a similar page.
 
Henning said:
Yes, R&Ring a jug is not freaking brain surgery.:rolleyes2: What would you do if you needed to swap a jug away from home, disassemble the plane and trailer it back to your mechanic, or fly your mechanic across the country to do the work?
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There's a huge difference between necessary and unnecessary surgery.

Yeah, R&R'ing a jug isn't that big of a deal. I've done it twice myself. #5 and #4 on my engine. BUT there's a lot of other ancillary items that must be R&R'ed to get to the jug. Baffling, exhaust system, intakes, engine monitor wiring and probes, etc.

Is the buyer going to replace at his cost the exhaust downtube that cracked when they pried on it getting it off? Is he going to troubleshoot and fix the EGT probe that's working intermittently when it's put back together? Is he going to repair/replace the 55 year-old baffling that cracked in two while removing it? Replace the rubber intake connectors that cracked during removal?

Is he going to take FULL responsibility to fix anything that's not working on a 55 year-old airplane when I get it back? Or, worse, if I'm not standing over the process, will it be put back together with some of the above issues unaddressed and simply not mentioned?

If so, and I have it in writing, then MAYBE I'll let them pull a jug. But, probably not. I don't enjoy pizzing contests that much.
 
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timwinters said:
There's a huge difference between necessary and unnecessary surgery.

Yeah, R&R'ing a jug isn't that big of a deal. I've done it twice myself. #5 and #4 on my engine. BUT there's a lot of other ancillary items that must be R&R'ed to get to the jug. Baffling, exhaust system, intakes, engine monitor wiring and probes, etc.

Is the buyer going to replace at his cost the exhaust downtube that cracked when they pried on it getting it off? Is he going to troubleshoot and fix the EGT probe that's working intermittently when it's put back together?

Are they going to repair/replace the 55 year-old baffling that they cracked in two while removing it?

Is he going to take FULL responsibility to fix anything that's not working on a 55 year-old airplane when I get it back?

If so, and I have it in writing, then MAYBE I'll let them pull a jug. But, probably not. I don't enjoy pizzing contests that much.
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Yes, they are responsible for returning it in serviceable condition. Take $2000 deposit to ensure it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
As opposed to the pot luck of someone pulling a cylinder and reinstalling it for no reason?
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And why do you assume I, as a buyer, would want to spend the money to do something for "no reason"? The time I did have a seller pull a jug the cam was spalling. And the reason the jug was pulled was my AP recommended it. Considering what we found I don't consider that "no reason" And do note, he didn't recommend it for the plane I ended up buying, which was in annual and flying.

Perhaps you live in Arizona, but in the Midwest, you get a plane sitting on the ramp a few years out of annual, I believe taking a deeper look is justified.

Anyways, while I respect your views, if I was a buyer and you were the seller of that non-flying/ out of annual airplane my AP recommend we look at the cam of I already would have walked.
 
Jeff K said:
And why do you assume I, as a buyer, would want to spend the money to do something for "no reason"?
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My perspective as seller, not yours as buyer.

Anyways, while I respect your views, if I was a buyer and you were the seller of that non-flying/ out of annual airplane my AP recommend we look at the cam of I already would have walked.
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No problem.
 
Henning said:
If I own it already, there is no financial risk in waiting for the cam to eat a lobe before repairing it. I never said it was a safety risk, purely a financial one IMO. Like I said, want to warranty the cam for 50hrs, I'd be more than happy to just fly it to find out. $12k is half the value of the typical 172 that has been sitting around for a year.
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What a joke, you'll let the cam destroy the crank before you do anything?
 
There is a 182 at Anacortes that has been in storage for 20 years. It was preserved and kept and renewed every 6 months.
It is in as good condition as it was 20 years ago.
 
The 170 guy said:
There is a 182 at Anacortes that has been in storage for 20 years. It was preserved and kept and renewed every 6 months.
It is in as good condition as it was 20 years ago.
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Yep, show it was properly cared for and no problem.
 
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