Buying a LSA. Good idea?

I have an RV12 (ELSA) with a Rotax 912 ULS and I love it. You do have to pick your days but I have decided if it is too rough to go up in the -12 I probably wouldn't go up in a 172 either...
 
bluesideup said:
Hi everyone.
OK, since you got me started. A few more reasons why these AKA acft. are not real airplanes.
In most you are flying with the engines in your lap.
Someone mentioned 2000 to 5800 RPM, actually is more like 1400-5800, I would like to see you fly it at 2000RPM.
Th Prop is Not the main reason for the noise, the engine is.
I have flown all that I am talking about for longer than 5 hrs /day and I would rather be in a 172, 182, SR22.. for those hrs. with my passive headset. I would not be in any Rotax for more than 2 with one.
Do Not attempt to fly them in Any type of moisture, and I am not talking rain, or they will pee on you.
Make sure you have plenty of tape around to seal the gaps.
Do not taxi them in a 70F or above with some wind behind you, or if not careful you can easily blow your the engine up...
Keep going and I will give you more reality checks.
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With 500+ hours behind Rotax 912 …. this post is just complete nonsense ..
 
Theodore Farah said:
I have owned a 182 and a Cirrus but want to down size and cut my expenses and maintenance costs. I have been looking at a few LSA planes but concerned they are much lighter. Has anyone owned or flown an LSA longer distance? What is ur opinion on these planes? Reliable? Rotex a good engine. Thx for ur comments.
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I flew rented Skycatchers (Cessna 162) from the SFO area to the Pacific Northwest several times, including to the Canadian border. The main downside was the need to pack light, and the uncomfortable seat. The cruising speed was about the same as the C172Ns that I trained in. I also rented a Paradise P-1 several times, and it was more comfortable. I don't remember the cruising speed of that one.
 
Theodore Farah said:
Has anyone owned or flown an LSA longer distance? What is ur opinion on these planes? Reliable? Rotex a good engine. Thx for ur comments.
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I just completed a 500NM CC in my LSA. Atlanta to Miami. I have over 1,400 hrs on my 912iS. Yes, it's very reliable... and fuel efficient at 4GPH! Feel free to DM with any questions.
 
bluesideup said:
The Only reason I would suggest to anyone to get an S/LSA is if you cannot get a medical / 3rd class.
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Or if you simply like flying a light, agile (and affordable) aircraft. Believe it or not, some of us pilots with medicals even enjoy flying ultralights, too. Don't judge pilots who choose to fly LSA just because it doesn't fit your mission.
bluesideup said:
Just think about it, in simple terms. What RPM do they run at? What conclusion can you come at from just that simple fact? It's not brain surgery.
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I come to the conclusion that it sounds different (which may be annoying to some), not that it's louder.
 
RyanShort1 said:
There's a lot to be said for a quick, simple, cheap flight in the local area just before sunset. And LSAs are perfect for things like that.

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To be frank, most of flights I see at my airport fit that profile regardless of what plane it is ( ok, I dont see citation owners doing that :) )
It seems everybody is talking cross country when buying a plane but then when they start flying most of their flights end up being quick simple local just-for-fun affairs.
 
FastEddieB said:
Nothing personal, but the post above by bluesideup is nonsense.
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It really is. I have to wonder if the guy has ever seen anything closer to a light sport airplane than a Reddit post. I don't know the person, btu the post shows a remarkable ignorance of facts.

For the OP, the first time I flew my RV-12 I picked it up in NC (KGEV) and flew it to NE (KMLE). Because of a late start due to heavy fog the morning I arrived to pick it up, we overnighted in TN. I've done KMLE-KOSH a couple of times. The CFI who was with me to fly it home -- I was out of currency and needed a flight review -- later took it from here to Key West, FL. and back. We've got close to 900 hours on the plane now, which is an average of about 75 hours per year since it was built and closer to 100 per year since I bought it.
 
Warmi said:
To be frank, most of flights I see at my airport fit that profile regardless of what plane it is ( ok, I dont see citation owners doing that :) )
It seems everybody is talking cross country when buying a plane but then when they start flying most of their flights end up being quick simple local just-for-fun affairs.
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I do both, I’ll take the occasional trips pack light but often is 100NM for a Saturday lunch or bfast. Occasionally a longer trip when it suits. It fits my mission for now. And for me, I have the latest in Avoinics, a 2016 aircraft built with newer and lighter materials. When I want to do something like add a GPS etc. I’m buying at experimental prices because my manufacturer used G3X experimental avionics.
 
RyanShort1 said:
There's a lot to be said for a quick, simple, cheap flight in the local area just before sunset. And LSAs are perfect for things like that.
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Agreed.

53385050508_814944bdc0_z.jpg


Flying my Cirrus was quite rewarding, and most times, enjoyable.

But the Sky Arrow is more fun, hands down,
 
Hi everyone.
Some of you have too much time on your hands. I am not sure if some of you are actually grown ups?
Everything I post is a fact.
Ding, Ding...
A couple of more facts.
Did you know? That you have to treat the Rotax like a new born?
No, you say, Yes I say.
Did you know, you have to burp that sucker every time before you fly / start it.
Did you know that you cannot adjust the seats after you get in the plane, and they are held by straps?......
Did you know that you legally cannot fly fly it if the winds along your route exceed 20-25Kts?
Any of you mighty ones prove anything that I said is Not a fact, or shut up, because you do not know what you are talking about. You live in La, La land.
I got hundreds more facts about these toys.
 
bluesideup said:
Hi everyone.
Some of you have too much time on your hands. I am not sure if some of you are actually grown ups?
Everything I post is a fact.
Ding, Ding...
A couple of more facts.
Did you know? That you have to treat the Rotax like a new born?
No, you say, Yes I say.
Did you know, you have to burp that sucker every time before you fly / start it.
Did you know that you cannot adjust the seats after you get in the plane, and they are held by straps?......
Did you know that you legally cannot fly fly it if the winds along your route exceed 20-25Kts?
Any of you mighty ones prove anything that I said is Not a fact, or shut up, because you do not know what you are talking about. You live in La, La land.
I got hundreds more facts about these toys.
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Try again

Why does my seat need to move when my rudder peddles are adjustable? My seats aren’t held by straps.

Why does burping the engine even make you’re a$$ chap? I’m inspecting the prop and it’s the design of the engine. Part of a normal precheck. I don’t know about anyone else, but I do treat my plane like a baby it was a 200k investment I prefer to keep it nice.
 

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bluesideup said:
Hi everyone.
Some of you have too much time on your hands. I am not sure if some of you are actually grown ups?
Everything I post is a fact.
Ding, Ding...
A couple of more facts.
Did you know? That you have to treat the Rotax like a new born?
No, you say, Yes I say.
Did you know, you have to burp that sucker every time before you fly / start it.
Did you know that you cannot adjust the seats after you get in the plane, and they are held by straps?......
Did you know that you legally cannot fly fly it if the winds along your route exceed 20-25Kts?
Any of you mighty ones prove anything that I said is Not a fact, or shut up, because you do not know what you are talking about. You live in La, La land.
I got hundreds more facts about these toys.
Click to expand...
Did you know? That you have to treat the Rotax like a new born?
As someone who has flown behind Lycomings, Continentals, and Rotax (which I own). No, I did not know that.

Did you know, you have to burp that sucker every time before you fly / start it.
Perhaps you were told that, but I have not found that to be true. I do check the oil, and if the level is OK, fire it right up.

Did you know that you cannot adjust the seats after you get in the plane, and they are held by straps?......
Not my seats.

Did you know that you legally cannot fly fly it if the winds along your route exceed 20-25Kts?
I'm pretty sure that is not a regulation.

Any of you mighty ones prove anything that I said is Not a fact, or shut up, because you do not know what you are talking about.
I think I know a little bit about my airplane and what's under the cowl.
One of my videos:

You live in La, La land.
I live in Michigan.
 
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Almost 400 of my total hours has been in light sports, mainly a Sport Cruiser, with no major problems. I did many trips that exceeded 9-hour days.
The plane did not have an autopilot, so if it was windy, I was constantly making corrections. Which, needless to say, can get really old, really fast.
So, I highly recommend you include an autopilot in your search.
Regarding noise, the sport cruiser was quieter than my 182. But then I never minded the drone of a 182, it was much like listening to a well-tuned, low-geared small block Chevy.
 
A reminder to people that the rules of conduct do not allow personal attacks in the process of the discussion. Please try to keep it civil.
 
I also have a Tecnam P2008 and have the turbo 914. Absolutely zero regrets! I've done several long XC (700+ nm) without so much as a hiccup. Most of these late model S-LSAs are extremely well equipped and well-suited for travel. With a full Garmin package, autopilot, and a GPS navigator, they're perfectly suited for long hauls and just a HAIR slower than mainstream GA a/c that cost 2x if not 3x the cost to operate. On long hauls, I'll file at 12K-14K and see 130 ktas on 6.3 gph. Even putzing around locally, I can economy cruise at 117-118 ktas and stay under 6gph.

Tecnam is also easy to work with on LOAs. There are several guys that convert to E-LSA and open up "gentlemen's IMC". Real IMC scares the heck out of my wife, so for me it's not been a big deal, but I may go E-LSA as my a/c is ready as is (dual ADHRS, backup battery, heated pitot, etc.). I personally would feel more comfortable flying my Tecnam in light IMC than some clapped out Warrior with 12K hours and sketch maintenance and a motor on its last leg.

My Rotax ownership has been flawless. Just completed my 100 hour inspection with zero surprises.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
A Rotax 912/914 is about as reliable as any other aircraft engine. Parts are not any less expensive.
What is a longer distance? Which LSA are you looking at? What kind of "LSA": S-LSA, E-LSA, Type certificated, E-AB?
Some of the Cubish LSAs (or even a real Cub) are not very fast - 700ish miles in my ride (Merlin GT) takes the better part of a day. Headwinds can really clobber you when you are cruising at 70ish.
Lighter means you get bounced around more in turbulence.
My ride works for me.
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Thanks for your comments Capt.! I am looking at either the new TL Sparker or the more established Sting and possibly the Bristell. All are two seaters, the Sting and Bristell are rated speed-wise, similar to a 182 and the Sparker is speed-wise in the 160s kts. Do you have any knowledge of the TL sports planes or the Bristell? The Sparker is an E-LSA; the other two are S-LSA. Not sure what you mean by E-AB? Thanks for sharing any knowledge you can add.
 
bigmo said:
I also have a Tecnam P2008 and have the turbo 914. Absolutely zero regrets! I've done several long XC (700+ nm) without so much as a hiccup. Most of these late model S-LSAs are extremely well equipped and well-suited for travel. With a full Garmin package, autopilot, and a GPS navigator, they're perfectly suited for long hauls and just a HAIR slower than mainstream GA a/c that cost 2x if not 3x the cost to operate. On long hauls, I'll file at 12K-14K and see 130 ktas on 6.3 gph. Even putzing around locally, I can economy cruise at 117-118 ktas and stay under 6gph.

Tecnam is also easy to work with on LOAs. There are several guys that convert to E-LSA and open up "gentlemen's IMC". Real IMC scares the heck out of my wife, so for me it's not been a big deal, but I may go E-LSA as my a/c is ready as is (dual ADHRS, backup battery, heated pitot, etc.). I personally would feel more comfortable flying my Tecnam in light IMC than some clapped out Warrior with 12K hours and sketch maintenance and a motor on its last leg.

My Rotax ownership has been flawless. Just completed my 100 hour inspection with zero surprises.
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Hi Bigmo; Thanks for your comments! I greatly appreciate your experienced comments. I have test flown several LSA planes and agree with your comments - to the extent of my experience. Are you familiar with the TL Sports planes: Sparker, Sting, etc.? Or how about the Bristell? All three of these planes are IFR certified and while I prefer not flying in the soup, it happens and I want to be safe so the availability is necessary since I fly to WI a couple of times per year.
 
Dave Anderson said:
I’m anxious to try the VL3 for this reason. 180 knots cruise with the 915 and Mosiac. With a 912 I’m not sure! The Bristell is a redesigned sportcruiser from the same designer. Just better bit and finish, price tag and more speed.
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Hi Dave; Thanks for your comments! I have test flown the VL3 and enjoyed it but a bit tight width-wise, but fast. On my first test flight we did a stall and my head hit the canopy as the left wing dropped hard but other than that I liked the plane. The finish of the plane that I flew was not great but ok. Have you ever flown or heard of the TL Sports planes: Sparker or Sting? Those are my top two planes that I like, but have not flown the Bristell yet.
 
GeorgeC said:
I don't have any Cirrus time, but I was in a 182 club and rented sportcruisers and a skycatcher.

They are lighter, like flying a kite. My appetite for wind was much less in the 162 than 182.

Long distance is the same as any other plane, just slower. Might be nicer (some LSAs have wide cabins), might be less so (some are loud and/or uncomfortable).

Rotax is good.

Welcome to PoA!
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Thanks!
 
Half Fast said:
@FastEddieB has done some long XCs in his Sky Arrow LSA and might have a meaningful comment or two. Luggage will be limited so pack like you were taking a motorcycle trip.

I trained in Tecnam LSAs. LSAs are decent planes but have very little wing loading. In strong, gusty winds you’ll feel like a butterfly being attacked by a leaf blower. This can be a problem if conditions at your destination are worse than forecast, so flight planning should be very conservative with options to land at airports with a choice of runways.
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Thanks!
 
rk911 said:
As others have mentioned an LSA will be like a leaf in even moderate wind. I have several hundred hours in a 162 and about a dozen in a Remos G3. I like the space for my flight bag, jacket, etc. in the 162...space that is missing from the G3. Beyond that they fly just about the same although the Remos glides better. With a little practice every landing was a "power off 180" landing. I also prefered the panel in the 162. Suggest you do a ton of homework and fly as many as you can.
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Thanks for your comments! Yes, great advice and I have flown 6 so far and some are very good and others are not so good. There is a big difference between the planes. The E-LSAs are not as light any further as they use to be. The Sparker is about 1,700lbs empty so they are starting to get up there as well.
 
Half Fast said:
@Theodore Farah , what’s your mission? Will you mostly be solo, or will you have a passenger?
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Most of my flights are short hops around FL, and some around the SE US and then a few longer flights a year up to WI. I almost never fly with more than one other person. For all the years I have flown a 4 seater, I have almost never used the other two seats. This will mostly be flights with my wife to go for short trips in FL or GA. Are you familiar with the TL Sports planes; Sparker or Sting? How about the Bristell?
 
RyanShort1 said:
If you like small planes and can get used to the lighter weights they are great. I probably have 400ish hours teaching in some LSAs and got to where I preferred it over the 172s I was also flying whenever it made sense.
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Thanks for your comments! What do you mean by "get used to"? Can you share your experience with learning to fly and getting use to the LSA? Are you familiar with the TL Sports planes: Sparker or STing or how about the Bristell?
 
Warmi said:
A higher end “fast” LSA will typically be more comfortable than your average GA plane (C-172/182) , much better equipped in terms of avionics and other modern contraptions like BRS/GRS chute etc, about as fast as C-172 and feel much more like a sport car ( and thus more fun ) with the main downside being lighter wing loading ( I personally tend to avoid mid day flying unless I have to which I almost never do ) and being overall less robust ( again , related to gross weight limits ).

If your goal is to have some fun flying , they are a lot more fun than old school GA planes - kind of like a motorcycle vs a family van , certainly less practical but then again , thats not why you buy a bike…..

Btw .. i believe my longest trip so far was from Chicago to North Little Rock to get my chute repacked - It was OK with the main issue being typical GA ”I am not going unless it is 100% VFR along the way” dilemma but , thats not why i bought this plane for :)

Here is some random FP video flying my little LSA …
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Thanks for your comments! Great experience. I am from WI but mostly fly in FL now with a few trips up to WI. I am looking at the TL Sport planes: Sparker or Sting or possibly the Bristell. They all are very nice to fly but again I have only flown them on nice days.
 
Tusayan said:
Maybe biggest issue with FAA LSA ownership is that by regulation parts generally need to come from the manufacturer, as do any avionics designs and approval for any modifications. It’s something like having a car for which the only source of parts is the dealer, which can’t be updated without dealer approval. This increases the cost and hassle of maintenance, and makes delays possible.

When an LSA manufacturer disappears someday, as many do, the FAA answer is to put the plane into E-LSA (experimental) category, which has a lot of merit but needs to be understood.

I would recommend flying before buying. My preference is for lighter and more responsive planes but if you’re used to planes that operate as an all weather transportation tool, I think an LSA might feel like a big step.
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Thanks for your comments! I have flown several so far and really enjoyed the planes. Have not heard the parts comment before so thanks for that, I will check on it. I am looking at new so the first two years will be covered by the Manufacturing company.
 
GeorgeC said:
Maybe LSAs are lighter on mx because they are not 50-70 years old like the rest of the fleet?

@Theodore Farah, if you're coming from a Cirrus, maybe check out Bristell.

@Dave Anderson
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Thanks for your comments! Are you familiar with the Bristell? I have not flown it yet. I have flown many LSA type planes and liked the feel. I have also flown the TL Sports planes and really liked the Sparker and the Sting. Any experience with any of these planes?
 
Dave Anderson said:
Define long XC? I’ve regularly done 300 miles in my Bristell. It holds 32 gallons and burns about 6gph with the 914T. Full fuel is longer than my bladder. I typically carry 22G and can fly 3 hrs w 400lbs useful if you hold the 1320 LSA gross.

It also has a roomy cabin 51” wide and is a comfortable. Of course it’s lighter so you pick your days with X-winds under 15 and nothing super choppy.

I’ve flown mine from KHGR to Hudson several times and would easily take it 1000+ miles. It was based in Utah when I bought it.

It also has wing lockers and a 30lb baggage in the back so you can carry a decent amount vs other LSAs. The wing lockers each hold a large backpack.

As for cheaper, it’s an airplane is there such a thing? My avg annual is costing around 2500 although the dealer says typically is 1500 but I fix whatever is broke or needs it. One was 6k because I had to rebuild the gearbox because the previous owner skipped an inspection. I will say I prefer the fuel injected rotax over the carbs which my 914T is. But they are fairly reliable engines and I can do the basics myself.
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Thanks for your comments, Dave! I have yet to fly the Bristell but have heard the plane is very good. Are you familiar with the TL Sports planes: Sparker or Sting? What kind of insurance rate do you get on the Bristell? I have heard from the dealer that it can be as high as $8,000; have you found it hard or easy to get insurance at reasonable rate?
 
Theodore Farah said:
Hi Bigmo; Thanks for your comments! I greatly appreciate your experienced comments. I have test flown several LSA planes and agree with your comments - to the extent of my experience. Are you familiar with the TL Sports planes: Sparker, Sting, etc.? Or how about the Bristell? All three of these planes are IFR certified and while I prefer not flying in the soup, it happens and I want to be safe so the availability is necessary since I fly to WI a couple of times per year.
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No time in any TL Sports, but I did climb in a Sirius and it was A+ (but it was $275K). I have flown and been in two Bristells. The B23 Turbo was a FABULOUS aircraft, but I believe they sell north of $300K. My mechanic owns a S-LSA RV-12 (I think it's the is). It's beautiful and looks "factory built" - he loves it. The 12's I have been in fly great. Of all the LSA's I've touched and been in, the Tecnams and Bristells feel the most "real aircraft". No shade on any of the other competitors...they all have their own mission. In short, I chose the P2008 because the times I was in low wing canopy LSA's, I got actually sun baked. I love the visibility of a high wing and love having a roof over my head.
 
Theodore Farah said:
Thanks for your comments, Dave! I have yet to fly the Bristell but have heard the plane is very good. Are you familiar with the TL Sports planes: Sparker or Sting? What kind of insurance rate do you get on the Bristell? I have heard from the dealer that it can be as high as $8,000; have you found it hard or easy to get insurance at reasonable rate?
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I am, love the speeds and maybe one day it would be a good plane but I'm also not holding my breath on mosiac passing soon enough. The Bristell has a similar plane to compete with the faster Sparker, etc.
Mine is an NG5 speed rated at 120 for LSA, but I've seen them with 915 pushing much faster. To compare, i'd look at the Bristell B23 which is more geared toward MOSIAC from design.
Where are you located?
 
I understand Bristell B23s are currently going thorough a bout of unexplained partial engine failures in Europe. Germany’s LBA, Switzerland’s BAZL and Austro Control have formed task force to draw EASA attention to Rotax 912 reliability issues that may also extend to Tecnam and Aquila planes, but that’s not clear. Bristell thinks it’s fuel related and has released a SB on 91UL but again there is data that indicates the issue is independent of fuel type. Seems to be a bit of a mess brewing, time will tell.
 
Theodore Farah said:
Thanks for your comments, Dave! I have yet to fly the Bristell but have heard the plane is very good. Are you familiar with the TL Sports planes: Sparker or Sting? What kind of insurance rate do you get on the Bristell? I have heard from the dealer that it can be as high as $8,000; have you found it hard or easy to get insurance at reasonable rate?
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Insurance on the bristell when i was a newer pilot <250 hrs was 5k/yr for 200k hull, the newer ones are 300k so i'd expect higher unless you have more hours. I currently pay 3400
 
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