Buy Your Last Plane First

I nibbed at old Bo's. The early 50s models come as low as $26k. I even flew to look at one. It was a Vegas airplane with a factory swamp cooler. Hydraulic prop terminated AD, 800 hours SMOH. Amazing deal, actually.

What really stopped me is that my neighbour has a Bonanza like that. He never flies it. I'm sure the engine is all rusty inside. Taking care of that airplane runs about $8,000 a year -- if you know what you're doing.

Just out of fairness, neighbour on the other side is a 152 with flat tires. That one is not even airworthy. So, you can end like that with a cheap airplane too. But Bo makes it much easier.
 
I don't get your point. $8K? I'd guess anyone with a retractable 6-cyl go-places plane of any brand is spending 20-30K per year on their habit, all-in. Over enough years a Bo does better on that score than most because they'll consume fewer parts and they're well supported when you do need something.
 
Here's what I know from owning two planes, moving to my third:

You always want something else eventually. And you will lose incredible amounts of money on airplanes that you inevitably upgrade and then sell at a loss. It's just how it is. So therefore, the best thing is to buy so far beyond your wildest dreams that you never have to upgrade ever.

And that means buying my Aerostar..:D:thumbsup:
 
JHW said:
You might as well get a bonanza because that's what you'll end up with. The old saw still holds true except for the uber wealthy buying cirri.
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Uber wealthy can't but taste I guess. I can think of plenty of cool and expensive planes, Cirrus just isn't one of em'

As for last planes

I'm happy with my 185, though it wasn't my first plane, and I don't see a upgrade from her.

Spose if I had stupid money I'd get an additional play toy plane, a Mig 21 or something supersonic like that. Unfortunately I don't have those kind of problems :lol:

JHW said:
I don't get your point. $8K? I'd guess anyone with a retractable 6-cyl go-places plane of any brand is spending 20-30K per year on their habit, all-in. Over enough years a Bo does better on that score than most because they'll consume fewer parts and they're well supported when you do need something.
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20-30k? Basket case plane, or you're logging some serious hours per year.
 
James331 said:
20-30k? Basket case plane, or you're logging some serious hours per year.
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Not at all. Add it all up including cost of money. Most people are in for 8-10k just for hangar, insurance, annual and mx before they ever put a drop of gas in it or figure their cost of capital.
 
Be smart. Go experimental.

You can get into a Bearhawk for half of what a C-180 costs and it'll do almost the same thing. And you won't pay $275 for a window latch.

Planes are like icebergs. The purchase price is just the tip. B)
 
I'm still thinking about going experimental. Just two issues: don't have the time and it will cost about 3X what I have in the old bo - just to get started. Still interested as I'm sure money will be tighter after retirement (which I still have a couple of decades) and experimental MX costs appear to be lower.

It's interesting how a pilot's "my airplane" is cheap to maintain, yet "his airplane" costs "a lot". Jeff has good numbers - I'm a little better off being in a rural state with lower costs (hangar, mx, etc.).

Nothing cheap about flying except quitting....
 
As others have said, "Buy your first plane last" seems unrealistic unless you are already at the end of your flying career. It would seem the best way to have the $ to buy what you need at the time would be to "Marry your last wife first".
Sometimes easier said than done, but never saw a skirt that made me want to give away half my possessions and future income. That is one reason why I can afford to fly.
 
LDJones said:
:yeahthat:

A good example is my most recent instrument student. He partnered with a friend on a C-150 to get his license and the partner's daughter to get hers. He then went shopping for his "First Airplane". At 64 hours total time he took delivery of a used turbo-normalized Bonanza A36. It took him close to 50 hours in it to be really proficient and get signed off for solo (although that included a LOT of commuting XC time so not like it was 50 hours of regular training.) A year later he had 250 hours TT and his instrument rating. That plane will meet his needs for a long time.
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It's also surprising to see how many low (250ish) hour pilots are getting into things like 340s, 414s, 421s. Personally I don't think that's a good idea, but still doable and the insurance companies are selling policies for it.
 
Code90 said:
As others have said, "Buy your first plane last" seems unrealistic unless you are already at the end of your flying career. It would seem the best way to have the $ to buy what you need at the time would be to "Marry your last wife first".
Sometimes easier said than done, but never saw a skirt that made me want to give away half my possessions and future income. That is one reason why I can afford to fly.
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There's one of the biggest money-saving tips ever posted on POA!
 
I am in kind of the same boat.. Family of 5 here.. I have been looking hard at the Cherokee 6 260 but I keep on hearing that the insurance is ALOT more for those 2 extra seats.. Is this true compared to say a Cherokee 140 or a Arrow 2?

If the amount is a big difference, I am thinking about going with an Arrow 2 as my oldest boy will be 15 this year and I figure he will be moving out in the next 4-5 years or so.. but I sure like the idea of the bigger Cherokee 6 ..
 
Firefighter_324 said:
I am in kind of the same boat.. Family of 5 here.. I have been looking hard at the Cherokee 6 260 but I keep on hearing that the insurance is ALOT more for those 2 extra seats.. Is this true compared to say a Cherokee 140 or a Arrow 2?

If the amount is a big difference, I am thinking about going with an Arrow 2 as my oldest boy will be 15 this year and I figure he will be moving out in the next 4-5 years or so.. but I sure like the idea of the bigger Cherokee 6 ..
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I haven't found the number of seats to be that big of a factor.

Typically, the biggest factor in insurance premiums is the hull value of the aircraft, so if you are insuring it for 100k and an arrow is only worth maybe 50, then yes, you will see a big difference.....but it isn't because of the seats.
 
Firefighter_324 said:
I am in kind of the same boat.. Family of 5 here.. I have been looking hard at the Cherokee 6 260 but I keep on hearing that the insurance is ALOT more for those 2 extra seats.. Is this true compared to say a Cherokee 140 or a Arrow 2?

If the amount is a big difference, I am thinking about going with an Arrow 2 as my oldest boy will be 15 this year and I figure he will be moving out in the next 4-5 years or so.. but I sure like the idea of the bigger Cherokee 6 ..
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Call Avemco and get a quote on a Cherokee 6 260 and on a 4 seater, both with the same value and with your same hours.

See what they say.
 
txflyer said:
Be smart. Go experimental.

You can get into a Bearhawk for half of what a C-180 costs and it'll do almost the same thing. And you won't pay $275 for a window latch.

Planes are like icebergs. The purchase price is just the tip. B)
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If you want a C180 or A185, and are OK not being able to make money with her, look into a Super Cyclone, its a 185 knock off, but with all the good mods 185 guys want already incorporated into the basic design, bigger wing etc.

I've seen a few for less than 180 prices (not on amphibs though)

image.jpg
 
Ted DuPuis said:
It's also surprising to see how many low (250ish) hour pilots are getting into things like 340s, 414s, 421s. Personally I don't think that's a good idea, but still doable and the insurance companies are selling policies for it.
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I don't necessarily see a problem with it. My first solo was in a C-337, king air at 250ish hours, right seat in the AN24 at 600ish hours. That was pretty typical at our small company.
 
I would never in a million years buy a Cherokee 140. It barely has enough hp to get out of its own way.

The MINIMUM aircraft for operating in temps above 80F or altitudes above 6000' is 180hp. I don't care how you get there - Arrow, Cherokee, Skyhawk or even a 200hp Mouse, but 180 hp is the minimum acceptable hp for any 'last aircraft.'

If you think a Cherokee 140 is your 'last airplane' you need to get out more.

Once I started flying again - I bought a Cherokee 180 with a partner and flew the hell out of it for 2 years.

Then it was a Bellanca Viking, cause I always wanted one - then I realized I needed to take a growing boy and my spouse places which meant the Viking had to go.

Now I have a 260hp Comanche which, unless I win the lottery and need to fly places alot - is my last airplane.
 
Somedudeintn said:
So I was thinking the other day, "Man it would be nice to have my own plane!" I browsed through a few ads and figured I could buy a Cessna 152 for about 15k and I would have my own plane. Sure I'd have to pay for a tiedown, insurance, and maintenance, and gas, but its more fun to just ignore those and think about having a plane I can fly whenever I want for 15k.

Then I started thinking some more and I realized that two seats are no fun, I need four seats. Nearly everyone else that has a plane has four seats, and even if I can't put any people back there I should have four seats. All these people have to know something I don't. Cherokee 140 it is! I can get one of those for an extra 10k! The 152 would have been $7500/seat, but a $25k 140 is only $6250/ seat. I'm saving money already!

Then I started thinking about how flying a slow plane into a strong headwind isn't much fun if you want to go anywhere. I've really enjoyed slow flight into a strong headwind, but I need to go places so I need a faster plane. M20C it is! I can get a decent one for an extra 15k and now I can really go places. I can even put some skinny legged short people in the back seat! This is great, so much better than a 152. I don't know what I was thinking before.

After I thought about it a bit more I realized that the short bodied Mooney won't cut it either, I might get sued for discrimination if I can only put small people in the back seat. An extra 20k and I can get a M20F. I would have spent more than that in lawyer fees when I got sued with my C so I'm still saving money!

And finally I realized that I need to go a bit faster, 201mph sounds pretty good so I'll fork over the extra 40k and pick up a M20J.

Seriously though whenever I think about buying a 15k 152 that I actually could afford I end up reasoning up to a ~100k M20J that I'll have to keep saving for. Looks like I'll keep renting for the next few years!

Just for kicks I'm though, for someone who is a new father and will likely end up with a family of 4, what "last plane" would you recommend? I likely wouldn't travel further than 400nm on a trip (in-laws are 360nm away and my fam is ~300nm). Ownership is still a ways off for me, but I love to dream!
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Depends how far you want to haul them and how heavy everything gets. Short range like 300 miles, Cherokee 6 does everything you need, longer range A-36 Bonanza. Eventually you may need a twin, but not yet unless you want one, then you go with a Baron or 310.
 
So I am a low time pilot (100hrs) that owns 2 airplanes--- kinda, I'm 3 way partners in a cherokee 140 (my first airplane). It's old and worn out, but even so surprisingly economical to work on and fly. I bought my 1/3 for $5k on a motor that had 2200 smoh. My partners were the best a guy could want. I figured if I flew it for 50hrs without having to rebuild I could walk away with nothing and be money ahead from renting. I flew it for 50 hrs, spent $3k on 2 annuals and tie down... And it's for sale for $5k--- we shall see....
I wanted more power after flying my wife & I to tahoe with skis & gear... I bought a bellanca viking that had been sitting... It was a deal I could afford, though it was still a risk. I havnt owned it for 6mo yet, so the jury is still out on how good a deal it truly was. But as a person who has low time and doesn't mind a little gamble this is what I came away with. Buying an airplane that was at the top of my budget (and needed work) forced me to find situations that would allow me to do dove of the work myself... I've traded construction work (my trade) for a&p work and supervision. I've been able to get my hands dirty and learn about the airplanes I've owned because I couldn't just pay someone to go fix everything.... I love aviation and surprisingly it's very rewarding to fix a problem in a vintage airpjane, and learn about how things are made. Unfortunately the time & money I've spent on keeping the planes airworthy had cut into my flying budget but I wouldn't trade the experience for flight time (at this point)
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
if $20K was all ya got...you would. :D
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I agree :yes: the view is the same at 3000'. As my wife said about my first plane, a Warrior, 'Is it better than the airplane that you currently have?'

It is forgiving to fly and my last annual was $650.
 
If I bought my last plane first, I'd never own the BBJ. ;) ;) ;)

In all seriousness, I've always thought the phrase was dumb.
 
comanchepilot said:
I would never in a million years buy a Cherokee 140. It barely has enough hp to get out of its own way.

The MINIMUM aircraft for operating in temps above 80F or altitudes above 6000' is 180hp. I don't care how you get there - Arrow, Cherokee, Skyhawk or even a 200hp Mouse, but 180 hp is the minimum acceptable hp for any 'last aircraft.'

If you think a Cherokee 140 is your 'last airplane' you need to get out more.

Once I started flying again - I bought a Cherokee 180 with a partner and flew the hell out of it for 2 years.

Then it was a Bellanca Viking, cause I always wanted one - then I realized I needed to take a growing boy and my spouse places which meant the Viking had to go.

Now I have a 260hp Comanche which, unless I win the lottery and need to fly places alot - is my last airplane.
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Re: the 140 Cherokee, I certainly agree. It's an underpowered boring airplane. Your better off with a Honda civic.
 
150m.p.h. airplane is a good all around airplane for the money.

Any slower than that, and it kind of defeats the purpose for traveling. The trips can get long especially if you look down and see cars going about as fast as you are in a headwind.

They don't make the perfect airplane yet. One that will cruise 300knots, land in 200 feet, take off in 400, haul 2000lbs., and burn 6g.p.h. :lol:
 
I fly a Cessna 140. You can easily pick them up for less than $20K. Sometimes I'd like to go faster, but then I remember I do this for fun.

Some people really need 4 seats, I find most do not. Usually those back seats are empty. I also hear a lot of guys who fly RV-7s or similar planes say they prefer the RV-8, but their wives wanted to fly next them. Then they find out their wives hardly ever fly with them!

I scoot along at a blistering 100mph. I know this seems slow to most of you, but it's still a lot fast than I can drive and going from Austin to Amarillo to see my Dad takes me about 4 hours vs. 8 hours by car.

It's all about how you like to fly and what you like to do. I love to fly. I love burning less than 5 gph! I love the attention I get when I show up in my highly polished little bird.

What I miss.... aerobatics! Someday I'll have a Pitts S-1 tucked under the wing of the 140.
 
denverpilot said:
If I bought my last plane first, I'd never own the BBJ. ;) ;) ;)

In all seriousness, I've always thought the phrase was dumb.
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I don't think the phrase is dumb, but like all generalizations, it is often bad advice.

Better advice is to make sure the first plane you buy is suited to your mission, now and in the foreseeable future.

I just sold my first plane (a 172) and bought a Bonanza. I suspect the Bonanza is the last plane I will every buy, but I would never have bought it first. (perhaps "should have", but still wouldn't have) Yet the 172 I bought was too slow for my personal mission. Had I bought a more suitable plane first, I would probably still have it.
 
JOhnH said:
I don't think the phrase is dumb, but like all generalizations, it is often bad advice.

Better advice is to make sure the first plane you buy is suited to your mission, now and in the foreseeable future.

I just sold my first plane (a 172) and bought a Bonanza. I suspect the Bonanza is the last plane I will every buy, but I would never have bought it first. (perhaps "should have", but still wouldn't have) Yet the 172 I bought was too slow for my personal mission. Had I bought a more suitable plane first, I would probably still have it.
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the phrase is geared more toward people thinking of an quicj intermediate change.

In your case, trade the 172 for an arrow with the intent to trade the arrow for a Bo in 5 years. Makes no sense. Just go straight to the Bo like you did
 
Admittedly I didn't roll all the previous posts... but...

If you can get into a good club or rental situation for your long haul, full gross flying you should do that for your high need flights.

For daily cruising and/or keeping current you can use something smaller (and maybe more fun)

In my case, I'm buying an RV for my primary flying fun, and keeping my interest in a C177 and PA32 for when those planes are more desirable for the mission. Granted, the certified planes cost me ~350/month fixed, but for flexibility I've got 2seats ANYTIME, and 4 or 6 based on the club calendar.

Have your main machine, but have an acceptable rent back-up. This also helps if an annual goes long.
 
JHW said:
the phrase is geared more toward people thinking of an quicj intermediate change.

In your case, trade the 172 for an arrow with the intent to trade the arrow for a Bo in 5 years. Makes no sense. Just go straight to the Bo like you did
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Well, it also brings up the point to buy the Bo first. Then you not only save upgrade costs, you save on long run insurance. That first year insurance bill is going to be high no matter what. You're actually better off getting the first year insurance under your CFI and going for the insurance mandated 25 hrs minimum in the plane before solo. You jam through your PP&IR in the first year, you have your 100hrs in and boom, now your insurance rates are 1.5% of insured value or less for the rest of the time you own that plane. The premium you pay for learning in the Bo is less than the difference in premium of starting in the 172 then the extra premium for the first 100 hrs in the Bo with 100 or more hrs in the 172.

The real advantage though comes in familiarity and primacy. You started with this plane, you have at least 41.5 hrs experience in it the first time you take a passenger. By the first time you hit IMC single pilot with your family you're going to have 100 hrs in the plane with 60hrs dual training including all your IFR training. You're going to be **** hot and very confident and competent with your equipment, and that is where safety comes from.
 
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