Busted the Presidential TFR

Diana

Diana

Final Approach
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Diana
No, not me! But one of our local pilots did. We had two presidential TFR’s in our area today. One actually included our farm. (Couldn’t do acro in the outer ring.)

Anyway, a charter pilot in a Citation was making a local hop and didn’t file. He inadvertently entered the TFR and was inside it by about one mile for a bit. He landed at a local airport where the jet is based and went home. Shortly after, several local, state, and federal law enforcement officers arrived at the airport looking for the guy.

I haven’t heard yet what the repercussions for him will be. My questions is…would filing a NASA form help this guy in this particular situation?
 
I don't know if the ASRS form would help in this instance but I know something that would: vote the bums out! TFRs do not a damn good thing. Meanwhile, valuable police assets are sent hunting for the bad pilot. Sheesh
 
our charter pilot flew into sioux city today during the prez tfr up here. had to get secret service clearance and everything. bummer for your guy down there. im not sure if a NASA form would help, but it definitely wont hurt.
 
Fill the form out to document the incident so that in the future we can use the stats to our advatnage of getting rid of these TFRs but it will do no good. Likely that he will get a talking too and I think they are still handing out suspensions for a few days, but they may only be for the innerring violators. He might just get a warning.
 
Dunno if this is true, but the local hangar talk here at M17 this morning was that Sen. Talent was on his way to SGF after the TFR had gone up, when his King Air (or whatever it was) was summarily denied entry; "But, but, but it's me...."--"So sorry Charlie, you can't come and play here".

As I heard the story, he had to return to KJEF, land, call Somebody somewhere, and get clearance from Clarence.

Again, I don't know if this is true, but it is kinda funny...:rolleyes:
 
This is good. The more "incidents" involving politicos the better the chances of getting the rules changed. TFRs have their uses, but protecting political campaigning is not one of them. When you tell people no one is above the law, you need to be careful what the law is.

jshawley said:
Dunno if this is true, but the local hangar talk here at M17 this morning was that Sen. Talent was on his way to SGF after the TFR had gone up, when his King Air (or whatever it was) was summarily denied entry; "But, but, but it's me...."--"So sorry Charlie, you can't come and play here".

As I heard the story, he had to return to KJEF, land, call Somebody somewhere, and get clearance from Clarence.

Again, I don't know if this is true, but it is kinda funny...:rolleyes:
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Diana said:
My questions is…would filing a NASA form help this guy in this particular situation?
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No.

If he didn't know about it because he didn't get a briefing, the FAA considers the failure to get that briefing a deliberate act and all that follows therefrom is equally deliberate. Deliberate acts don't get waiver of sanction for a NASA ASRS report. Expect about a 30-day suspension for this, maybe more given he's probably an ATP and the FAA expects better of higher rated pilots.

If he did know it was there, but blundered into it anyway, the FAA will call that lack of competency, and that's a 709 ride, which is also not covered by an ASRS report. Again, as an ATP (or at least commercial), the FAA expects better.

In any event, a 135-qualified pilot rated in a Citation ought to be smarter than to allow this to happen.:(
 
This really is crazy; like you being out in your car on a short trip and having to call the police to see if you can come home! It's happened a lot down in Waco in the Presidential TFR; farmer just flew over his own land (as he has been doing for years) and got busted.

I'm paranoid about it; call ahead or at least check the appropriate web sites before even flying VFR on a short trip.

In a plane like that he should at least have avionics that show TFRs like a Garmin 396/496.

Don't want to pile on the guilt, but it is campaign season and it’s not that we all haven’t been repeatedly told about this stuff.

Best,

Dave
 
Ron Levy said:
No.

If he didn't know about it because he didn't get a briefing, the FAA considers the failure to get that briefing a deliberate act and all that follows therefrom is equally deliberate. Deliberate acts don't get waiver of sanction for a NASA ASRS report. Expect about a 30-day suspension for this, maybe more given he's probably an ATP and the FAA expects better of higher rated pilots.

If he did know it was there, but blundered into it anyway, the FAA will call that lack of competency, and that's a 709 ride, which is also not covered by an ASRS report. Again, as an ATP (or at least commercial), the FAA expects better.

In any event, a 135-qualified pilot rated in a Citation ought to be smarter than to allow this to happen.:(
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What happens when it pops up after your departure, and you did get a briefing? Things have gotten better but this still happens occasionally, and sometimes ATC doesn't get the word in a timely fashion.
 
TMetzinger said:
What happens when it pops up after your departure, and you did get a briefing? Things have gotten better but this still happens occasionally, and sometimes ATC doesn't get the word in a timely fashion.
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First, if you're listening on 121.5, you get called before you hit the TFR. Second, other than in response to an accident, when's the last time a TFR popped up without prior notice? So yes, if someone got a pre-flight briefing, and went up in a plane with no radio, and a TFR pops up, and he flies in, I can see an issue arising, but I can't see a bust being sustained if he played by the rules up to that point -- the NTSB, if not the FAA, has a certain amount of common sense.

Nevertheless, folks better realize that this is part of flying in the 21st century, and the only way it will change is if we stop busting the TFR's that are properly posted ahead of time, because every bust is one step away from getting rid of them.
 
Umm... the last time a TFR popped up that I'm aware of is when the President changed his schedule. So the TFR areas didn't change but their effective times did, and ATC wasn't aware of the change in time to keep from vectoring an IFR flight through it. This was two years ago, and I remember it being written up on AvWeb or something, and I never heard what happened to the pilot after the notice of violation was received - I think the ATC got one too.
 
TMetzinger said:
Umm... the last time a TFR popped up that I'm aware of is when the President changed his schedule. So the TFR areas didn't change but their effective times did, and ATC wasn't aware of the change in time to keep from vectoring an IFR flight through it. This was two years ago, and I remember it being written up on AvWeb or something, and I never heard what happened to the pilot after the notice of violation was received - I think the ATC got one too.
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If that's it, then I don't think pop-up TFR's are an issue.
 
Ron Levy said:
First, if you're listening on 121.5, you get called before you hit the TFR. Second, other than in response to an accident, when's the last time a TFR popped up without prior notice? So yes, if someone got a pre-flight briefing, and went up in a plane with no radio, and a TFR pops up, and he flies in, I can see an issue arising, but I can't see a bust being sustained if he played by the rules up to that point -- the NTSB, if not the FAA, has a certain amount of common sense.
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If I may add what I heard an FAA attorney say at an FAA safety seminar sponsored by the DuPage (West Chicago) FSDO, IF you have called for a briefing and IF you have asked the specific question "Are there any TFRs on my route?" and IF the briefer specifically tells you "No, there are no TFRs," and IF during the course of your flight along that route a TFR "pops up" and you fly into it, your "defense" would be that you were specifically told there were no TFRs on your route.
I hasten to point out that the FAA attorney had to be mightily pressed by audience members into conceding that a pilot might have a defense, but he was unable to imagine a scenario under which a TFR might "pop up" that would be unknown to the briefer at the time of the briefing, along the route of flight that the pilot described to the briefer. Bottom line of his message was "know before you go."
 
I know it isn't on point for Security TFRs but it's worth remember there are TFR that popup quickly. Forest firest and SAR ops are two that come to mind. Consequences are more safety related than certificate. Hopefully the fire is obvious and you can avioid. SAR is different. I came pretty close to flying through the one for the plane crash at Telluride a few weeks back. Briefing was around three hours old when I past the area by less than 10 miles. Pilots with 396s mentioned after I was past.
 
EHITCH said:
If I may add what I heard an FAA attorney say at an FAA safety seminar sponsored by the DuPage (West Chicago) FSDO, IF you have called for a briefing and IF you have asked the specific question "Are there any TFRs on my route?" and IF the briefer specifically tells you "No, there are no TFRs," and IF during the course of your flight along that route a TFR "pops up" and you fly into it, your "defense" would be that you were specifically told there were no TFRs on your route.
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This has already been adjudicated -- you need only ask for a "standard briefing." You don't have to specifically ask for TFR's. After that, unless you cut off the briefing, you are not responsible for any TFR's along your stated route not mentioned by the briefer.
 
Ron Levy said:
This has already been adjudicated -- you need only ask for a "standard briefing." You don't have to specifically ask for TFR's. After that, unless you cut off the briefing, you are not responsible for any TFR's along your stated route not mentioned by the briefer.
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Given a couple of briefings I've gotten from the "new and improved" LM FSS, you may need to ask them specifically for Notams, even if you ask for a standard briefing. It was like pulling teeth from a hen.... they were doing the minimum possible, unlike my past experiences with FSS.
 
wsuffa said:
Given a couple of briefings I've gotten from the "new and improved" LM FSS, you may need to ask them specifically for Notams, even if you ask for a standard briefing. It was like pulling teeth from a hen.... they were doing the minimum possible, unlike my past experiences with FSS.
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For airport/facility NOTAMs, yes, they will provide only the NOTAMs for your departure, destination, and alternate, but for TFR's, they are required to brief all on your route without request.
 
Ron Levy said:
For airport/facility NOTAMs, yes, they will provide only the NOTAMs for your departure, destination, and alternate, but for TFR's, they are required to brief all on your route without request.
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I understand that, I'm just pointing out that I'm not sure they met all the requirements. It is a very unsettling feeling to have to ask for something and have them say "Oh, yeah, OK..." And that included items that should have been part of the standard briefing. My experiences here leave me much less confident than I used to be about getting all the required info.
 
Ron Levy said:
No.

If he didn't know about it because he didn't get a briefing, the FAA considers the failure to get that briefing a deliberate act and all that follows therefrom is equally deliberate. Deliberate acts don't get waiver of sanction for a NASA ASRS report. Expect about a 30-day suspension for this, maybe more given he's probably an ATP and the FAA expects better of higher rated pilots.

If he did know it was there, but blundered into it anyway, the FAA will call that lack of competency, and that's a 709 ride, which is also not covered by an ASRS report. Again, as an ATP (or at least commercial), the FAA expects better.

In any event, a 135-qualified pilot rated in a Citation ought to be smarter than to allow this to happen.:(
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There just aren't enough facts to say that an ASRS wouldn't help, or what the probable consequences are.
I don't know if this will end up in a 709, or how many days it would get.

In enforcement cases results depend on a variety of conditions, including the FAA lawyer you get for your case.
It never hurts to file a ASRS report, as it can be used as evidence of a constructive attitude.
 
There was a case right on point in the presidential TFR around Waco, some time back. Guy got his briefing, departed about an hour later and flew into the TFR. While he did get some warning; he wasn't given the normal suspension. Of course, he was not talking to Waco approach or monitoring 121.5.

Same guy got busted for flying through this again a couple months ago and I'm wondering how they will handle it. I'm sure it was posted somewhere on one of the boards a couple months ago.

Best,

Dave
 
Ron Levy said:
For airport/facility NOTAMs, yes, they will provide only the NOTAMs for your departure, destination, and alternate, but for TFR's, they are required to brief all on your route without request.
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Yes, but I *always* ask specifically, "Are there any TFR's anywhere along my route?" I want that to be on the tape. :)
 
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but has anyone ever seen a spec on how fast the 396/496/696 can display a pop-up TFR after it gets entered into the system?
 
inav8r said:
Yes, but I *always* ask specifically, "Are there any TFR's anywhere along my route?" I want that to be on the tape. :)
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LockMart Briefer: No TFR's along your route.
Me (having been clicking on the computer while getting my briefing): What's this TFR for my destination area?
LockMart Briefer: It's not presidential.
Me: If I'm reading this right, it closes my destination airport at my ETA.
LockMart Briefer: But it's not presidential.
Me: it's a TFR, though.
LockMart Briefer: But it's not presidential.
 
foka4 said:
Sorry to resurrect an old topic, but has anyone ever seen a spec on how fast the 396/496/696 can display a pop-up TFR after it gets entered into the system?
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In my experience, new TFR's pop up on those displays almost immediately upon being issued.
 
MauleSkinner said:
LockMart Briefer: No TFR's along your route.
Me (having been clicking on the computer while getting my briefing): What's this TFR for my destination area?
LockMart Briefer: It's not presidential.
Me: If I'm reading this right, it closes my destination airport at my ETA.
LockMart Briefer: But it's not presidential.
Me: it's a TFR, though.
LockMart Briefer: But it's not presidential.
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I hope you wrote that up on the FSS complaint line before they can erase the tape.
 
TMetzinger said:
Umm... the last time a TFR popped up that I'm aware of is when the President changed his schedule. So the TFR areas didn't change but their effective times did, and ATC wasn't aware of the change in time to keep from vectoring an IFR flight through it. This was two years ago, and I remember it being written up on AvWeb or something, and I never heard what happened to the pilot after the notice of violation was received - I think the ATC got one too.
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You talking about the Bill Cox incident? He was actually face down on the pavement before he got them to listen to his side of the story and make the appropriate inquiries.
 
Actually, while I would love to scream about this being the beginning of the end, its just a continuation of a long gradual process. I'm certain the first pilots who had to get licenses for doing something they'd been doing all along felt their freedom taken away. I'm certain pilots felt a loss of freedom when the class bravos and their cousins went up. It just keeps coming.
 
steingar said:
Actually, while I would love to scream about this being the beginning of the end, its just a continuation of a long gradual process. I'm certain the first pilots who had to get licenses for doing something they'd been doing all along felt their freedom taken away. I'm certain pilots felt a loss of freedom when the class bravos and their cousins went up. It just keeps coming.
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Anybody remember the scene in "The Great Waldo Pepper" when Newt is telling Waldo about the new CAA and what it will be doing? The difference here is that TSA can't say "You done it to yourself, buddy-boy."
 
Isn't this whole TFR thing for the President counter productive?
Kinda let's the terrorists know where he's going to be, what time etc.
Wouldn't a guy with a rocket launcher dug into a foxhole on approach be more dangerous than a 172 in the area?
I would think he would be safer if no one knew where he was instead of everyone knowing where he is.
 
el con said:
Isn't this whole TFR thing for the President counter productive?
Kinda let's the terrorists know where he's going to be, what time etc.
Wouldn't a guy with a rocket launcher dug into a foxhole on approach be more dangerous than a 172 in the area?
I would think he would be safer if no one knew where he was instead of everyone knowing where he is.
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I suppose there's that argument, but the fact is that because of the nature of the job and the way our country works, Presidential visits are planned and public. And as for the guy in the foxhole, they sweep and secure the airport and the areas around it, and AF1 has some pretty sophisticated detection and countermeasures equipment for guided weapons.
 
el con said:
Isn't this whole TFR thing for the President counter productive?
Kinda let's the terrorists know where he's going to be, what time etc.
Wouldn't a guy with a rocket launcher dug into a foxhole on approach be more dangerous than a 172 in the area?
I would think he would be safer if no one knew where he was instead of everyone knowing where he is.
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TFRs have just shown in this case and others that they are totally inneffective as well. The guy's jet was on the ground and he was gone before anybody even got there.
 
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