Busted the Bravo (Not me though)

overdrive148

overdrive148

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overdrive148
So today at work I was listening to Tower/Ground and I heard an older guy in a Bonanza call in. Long story short:

1) Heading north away from the airport asking for clearance to land
2) Tower tells him he's heading away from the airport to which he confirms. Tower gives him a 180 instruction.
3) Tower advises him that he's busted Bravo airspace as well as possibly busting a Delta.
4) Does a 180 per tower's instructions and loses sight of the field. Takes 2-3 times to respond to Ident requests.
5) Tower hands him off to Regional App to help him out
6) Regional Approach gives him vectors to the localizer
7) About 1-2 mins later, the pilot says he doesn't have the localizer freq and asks Approach for it
8) Approach gives him the localizer freq and asks him if he's new to the area. Pilot says yes, Approach recommends looking at his charts and airspace before flying. Hands him off to Tower again.
9) Tower gets him to land, changes him over to Ground
10) Pilot sits at the connector taxiway for 1-2 minutes. Ground asks him if he's on frequency, he replies "yes" and asks for taxi to our FBO specifically.
11) Needs a little more than progressive taxi to get there. Still misses a turn.
12) Ground does not ask him to call any number
12) Stays for a few hours.
13) Departs, doesn't turn his transponder and doesn't squawk or show Mode C. Hands off to another tower that I couldn't follow on LiveATC.

I was wholeheartedly expecting a number to call after he got switched to ground but they didn't say a word. At a loss for words. I know a mistake can screw up the rest of your flow but this just sounds like being so far behind the airplane and the flight...
 
He may still get contacted by the FAA. You no longer necessarily get told to call a number.
 
Sounds like the Bonanza version of the TKI mooney pilot who kept flubbing the clearance readback.
 
mkosmo said:
Is the PPD notice no longer required?
Click to expand...

I guess it is 'workload permitting'. My dad recently got called by an inspector over a possible deviation (it was quickly decided no deviation occurred after the inspector listened to the tapes). No PD warning was given on frequency.
 
2-1-26

When it appears that the actions of a pilot constitute a pilot deviation, notify the pilot, workload permitting.

PHRASEOLOGY−

(Identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number).
 
Velocity173 said:
2-1-26

When it appears that the actions of a pilot constitute a pilot deviation, notify the pilot, workload permitting.

PHRASEOLOGY−

(Identification) POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number).
Click to expand...

It doesn't sound like the pilot's workload would have permitted him to copy a number. :)
 
If the controller observes the deviation and chooses to notify management then they will usually issue the PPD(brasher warning). That said, I will only do this if the deviation results in a loss of separation (hands are tied on this). If no loss I try to just correct the pilot and let them know no harm, no foul. In the automated world we live in computers are able to see issues after the fact and the FSDO may contact a pilot at a later date with a PD.
 
I heard a guy get some free instruction in airspace rules a couple of years ago. As I was overflying the Seattle class B airspace, I was monitoring Seattle Approach, and the controller told a guy that he was in the bravo airspace without a clearance, and instructed him to exit. The pilot responded that since he was on flight following, he understood the clearance to be implied. Oops! The controller set him straight on that score.

The controller also pointed out that the pilot was lined up with SEA's runways. Double oops!

The controller gave him a phone number to call.
 
Radar Contact said:
If the controller observes the deviation and chooses to notify management then they will usually issue the PPD(brasher warning). That said, I will only do this if the deviation results in a loss of separation (hands are tied on this). If no loss I try to just correct the pilot and let them know no harm, no foul. In the automated world we live in computers are able to see issues after the fact and the FSDO may contact a pilot at a later date with a PD.
Click to expand...

Yep, had an F-18 once blow thru her altitude into center's airspace. No brasher. Had an F-18 blow thru his altitude on climbout and lost sep with a Bonanza. Got the brasher and got the write up. Never worked when the "snitch patch" was in effect so you could hide a lot back then. Tower airspace, plenty of things that can be swept under the rug. ;)
 
Palmpilot said:
I heard a guy get some free instruction in airspace rules a couple of years ago. As I was overflying the Seattle class B airspace, I was monitoring Seattle Approach, and the controller told a guy that he was in the bravo airspace without a clearance, and instructed him to exit. The pilot responded that since he was on flight following, he understood the clearance to be implied. Oops! The controller set him straight on that score.

The controller also pointed out that the pilot was lined up with SEA's runways. Double oops!

The controller gave him a phone number to call.
Click to expand...
Some class B controllers will respond, you're talking to me so you're cleared. Not technically correct, but how it's handled.

I typically fly IFR, so not generally an issue for me.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
 
wayne said:
Some class B controllers will respond, you're talking to me so you're cleared. Not technically correct, but how it's handled.

I typically fly IFR, so not generally an issue for me.



Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
Click to expand...
Coming back from OSH, I annoyed a Houston TRACON controller. We were just north, and I wanted to make sure she understood I wanted to transit the Bravo, so I (on VFR FF) asked if I could proceed direct destination. She responded "proceed direct West Houston." I don't mind a clearly implied clearance since they're common here, but that was too vague for me. So I said "I'm looking for a Bravo clearance," to which she audibly sighed with an annoyed tone and came back, "CLEARRRRED in to the class bravo airspace," as if she didn't like me very much. At least I didn't have an altitude restriction for much of it. Eventually she stuck me low and it was rough. Granted, the cloud cover would have had me down, too.
 
I almost fell into the trap going into Phoenix Class B.

I was in a 210 flying VFR going to Phoenix Sky Harbor. I got the remain out of class B. After about 10 minutes I got direct to PHX. As I was getting close I asked If I was cleared into the Class B. He quickly gave me the magic words....Cessna 123 cleared into the Class B..... Whew... I don't know if he forgot or if I missed the call, but better safe than sorry.
 
Zeldman said:
I almost fell into the trap going into Phoenix Class B.

I was in a 210 flying VFR going to Phoenix Sky Harbor. I got the remain out of class B. After about 10 minutes I got direct to PHX. As I was getting close I asked If I was cleared into the Class B. He quickly gave me the magic words....Cessna 123 cleared into the Class B..... Whew... I don't know if he forgot or if I missed the call, but better safe than sorry.
Click to expand...

I've had PHX do that to me more than once. I dot know why.

I've also had PHX dump me into the DVT Delta while still talking to me enough that I couldn't switch frequencies. I should have caught that one, but DVT is so used to their usual level of insanity they didn't even care. Cleared me right over the top of the airport and on my way.
 
Zeldman said:
I almost fell into the trap going into Phoenix Class B.

I was in a 210 flying VFR going to Phoenix Sky Harbor. I got the remain out of class B. After about 10 minutes I got direct to PHX. As I was getting close I asked If I was cleared into the Class B. He quickly gave me the magic words....Cessna 123 cleared into the Class B..... Whew... I don't know if he forgot or if I missed the call, but better safe than sorry.
Click to expand...
Happened to me once too and I agree, it is an easy trap to fall into. There have been numerous threads here on people (pilots of all) not understanding that "proceed blah" does not constitute a bravo clearance. :)

mkosmo said:
So I said "I'm looking for a Bravo clearance," to which she audibly sighed with an annoyed tone and came back, "CLEARRRRED in to the class bravo airspace," as if she didn't like me very much.
Click to expand...
Glad that you asked! And I really don't understand controllers who get annoyed by doing their job that we pay them for. They SIGNED UP for this job. You'd think they like aviation and pilots. *shrug* Nobody held a gun to their head.
To their credit, most controllers are pretty cool and nice. There are just some bad apples. Just like among pilots. Or anywhere else in the world. We are all human.
 
BigBadLou said:
Happened to me once too and I agree, it is an easy trap to fall into. There have been numerous threads here on people (pilots of all) not understanding that "proceed blah" does not constitute a bravo clearance. :)


Glad that you asked! And I really don't understand controllers who get annoyed by doing their job that we pay them for. They SIGNED UP for this job. You'd think they like aviation and pilots. *shrug* Nobody held a gun to their head.
To their credit, most controllers are pretty cool and nice. There are just some bad apples. Just like among pilots. Or anywhere else in the world. We are all human.
Click to expand...

The other trap is "you may proceed as requested".
 
mtuomi said:
The other trap is "you may proceed as requested".
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That used to be in the 7110, to be fair. It may have been cleared as requested, though. One of them. If i got proceed-as-requested in response to a question clearly requesting transit through the bravo, I'd accept that as implied enough that the FSDO wouldn't come after me.
 
mkosmo said:
That used to be in the 7110, to be fair. It may have been cleared as requested, though. One of them. If i got proceed-as-requested in response to a question clearly requesting transit through the bravo, I'd accept that as implied enough that the FSDO wouldn't come after me.
Click to expand...

Atlanta used to play this game. "You may proceed as requested" "Confirm I'm cleared into ATL class B" "negative, proceed as requested, remain clear of ATL class bravo airspace", or something to that effect.
 
"Cleared as requested" is still in the .65.
 
mtuomi said:
Atlanta used to play this game. "You may proceed as requested" "Confirm I'm cleared into ATL class B" "negative, proceed as requested, remain clear of ATL class bravo airspace", or something to that effect.
Click to expand...
Ouch. I've never had a controller play that game with me.
 
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