Busted class B......

Shawn said:
You were conflating an IFR clearance and the regulations regarding a VFR clearance into Bravo which was unrelated and confusing...so there was that when "us guys" were trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about.
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91.131(a)(1) doesn't specify VFR or IFR, and I was quoting Richard who mentioned that regulation. The IFR clearance was not issued by "the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area." Which is why I said the regs don't always say what they mean to say.
 
sarangan said:
I have come across some controllers who are a little loose on the class B clearance language.
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This used to happen a lot in the Phoenix class Bravo. They would provide instructions clearly going through the bravo but no clearance. It would bug my son who was training at the time. They seem to be better about it recently.
 
FastEddieB said:
Don’t be silly.

In that case, deviation would be allowed by exercising the pilot’s emergency authority.

Strikes me as odd I would have to say that.
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"Second, you pose that if the pilot elects to turn to avoid the Class B airspace, did the pilot violate § 91. 123(a)(b) and/or 91.111(a). If the pilot only received the vector for traffic from A TC, the pilot did not receive a clearance or instruction from A TC. Therefore, any maneuvering by the pilot is not a violation of § 91.123. However in maneuvering the aircraft, the pilot must comply with § 91.111(a) and not operate the aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard."

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2010/doremire - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
 
If you’re on flight following already and the controller gives you a vector that cuts into the bravo, I can’t see how you’d be busting it. Officially, it doesn’t sound like this guy was given a clearance, but the fact that the controller vectored them into it, implies it. Likely explains why the controller never said anything about it - go figure!

My 2c.
 
EdFred said:
Well, I started the post with "I've been cleared direct..." so I figured you guys would pick up that it's IFR since what other sort of clearance would I get when departing outside of and heading away from a class C?
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I suspected that was what you meant, but I didn't want to assume. I guess the FAA considers any controller who issues an IFR clearance to have some degree of jurisdiction over whatever airspace lies along your cleared route. It would be nice if the FAA made it explicit though, since there apparently are people who get confused about it.
 
Shawn said:
You were conflating an IFR clearance and the regulations regarding a VFR clearance into Bravo which was unrelated and confusing...so there was that when "us guys" were trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about.
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The regulation on this subject does not distinguish between VFR and IFR operations. My understanding is that the reason IFR flights don't have to worry about it is that the FAA considers the initial "Cleared to [destination]" to fulfill the clearance requirement in 91.131(a)(1).
 
Shawn said:
"Second, you pose that if the pilot elects to turn to avoid the Class B airspace, did the pilot violate § 91. 123(a)(b) and/or 91.111(a). If the pilot only received the vector for traffic from A TC, the pilot did not receive a clearance or instruction from A TC. Therefore, any maneuvering by the pilot is not a violation of § 91.123. However in maneuvering the aircraft, the pilot must comply with § 91.111(a) and not operate the aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard."

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/data/interps/2010/doremire - (2010) legal interpretation.pdf
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The FAA's reasoning in that paragraph has always struck me as bogus. They just can't bring themselves to admit that there are times when FAA regulations contradict each other!
 
Palmpilot said:
The regulation on this subject does not distinguish between VFR and IFR operations. My understanding is that the reason IFR flights don't have to worry about it is that the FAA considers the initial "Cleared to [destination]" to fulfill the clearance requirement in 91.131(a)(1).
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With IFR is understood to be an "Implied" clearance that is handed off down the line which the final controlling authority has the ability to accept or reject (in case of traffic flow for example). That is MUCH different from a VFR clearance into Bravo...which the conversation in the thread is about. Context matters if one is not going to clarify, not random tangents cuz someone know something about a regulation regarding clearances applied to another scenario.

Ryanb said:
but the fact that the controller vectored them into it, implies it.
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While it might seem ambiguous...FAA is very clear. VFR entry into Bravo requires an explicit clearance and a traffic vector is not an instruction and an instruction is not a clearance.

While it is evident that all of those at time can be at odds, none of that negates the pilots responsibility to understands and follow the regulations regardless of controller error. The pilot is still PIC, not ATC.

Now yes, we are debating the nuance between real world flying and by the book regulation flying...but clearly understanding the regulations is critical to being able to adapt to real world in the air. As the saying goes...you can not create a regulation for every possible scenario.

I have been vectored into Bravo boundary sans clearance more than once. Queried and immediately received or released to own nav to avoid every time.
 
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Shawn said:
With IFR is understood to be an "Implied" clearance that is handed off down the line which the final controlling authority has the ability to accept or reject (in case of traffic flow for example). That is MUCH different from a VFR clearance into Bravo...which the conversation in the thread is about. Context matters if one is not going to clarify, not random tangents cuz someone know something about a regulation regarding clearances applied to another scenario.
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That's why I asked him to clarify.
 
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Shawn said:
With IFR is understood to be an "Implied" clearance that is handed off down the line which the final controlling authority has the ability to accept or reject (in case of traffic flow for example).
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It's not "implied." It is express. "Cleared to...via."
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's not "implied." It is express. "Cleared to...via."
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Implied to fulfill 91.131(a)(1) requirements of the ATC facility having jurisdiction.

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area

Grouud at Podunk issuing your clearance does not typically have that jurisdiction for Bravo airspace...but that final facility will accept that clearance without having to issue it again to the pilot which the regulation suggests needs to happen for either IFR or VFR by the literal reading of the text.

...which is why IFR is different than VFR needing an explicit clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that Bravo airspace even though 91.131(a)(1) does not distinguish between IFR and VFR.
 
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This post generated far more activity than I imagined it would, but then again, we are talking about regulations.

I looked up the airspace on the sectional and it appears that v521 just clips a very small tip of the Bravo. There is parachuting activity at ZPH which is just barely outside of the modified Bravo. I realize I am speculating here but if the pilot's original plan was to skirt the Bravo to the east, and before he gets to the point of deviation, approach tells him to skirt the parachute activity to the west by turning 10 degrees left (which puts him even more into the bravo, possibly because the parachute activity was always intended to stay clear of the Bravo and to the east of it,) then the direction of the controller to turn the plane 10 degrees left makes perfect sense. This would have been the safest path for all involved. Looking at this from a practical standpoint, everybody did what they should have done for maximum safety. I tend to want to believe that that is always the goal. I don't think the intention was to present a "gotcha" moment for the pilot. The system and the personnel involved in it, both pilots and controllers should always work toward safety for all. I may be naive, but I want to think this is what happened.
 
Shawn said:
Implied to fulfill 91.131(a)(1) requirements of the ATC facility having jurisdiction.

(1) The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area

Grouud at Podunk issuing your clearance does not typically have that jurisdiction for Bravo airspace...but that final facility will accept that clearance without having to issue it again to the pilot which the regulation suggests needs to happen for either IFR or VFR by the literal reading of the text.

...which is why IFR is different than VFR needing an explicit clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that Bravo airspace even though 91.131(a)(1) does not distinguish between IFR and VFR.
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I see what you mean, but I also see a difference between literal reading and contextual reading. When I am operating VFR I am not on a clearance of any kind, unless I am specifically cleared into a Bravo airspace. When I am IFR in any controlled airspace, I am always on a clearance. But that's just me.
 
EdFred said:
Well, I started the post with "I've been cleared direct..." so I figured you guys would pick up that it's IFR since what other sort of clearance would I get when departing outside of and heading away from a class C?
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They are clearing you because they have the authority to do so. If approach control is doing it, it is because a Center authorized it. If a Center is doing it, it is because they are the facility that controls the flight information region.

Tantalum said:
Speaking of, I was flying with a guy once, IFR flight, and the guy nearly had an aneurysm that I wasn't confirming Bravo clearances when flying through them with apparent impunity.
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Reminds me of a VFR flight with a new guy who had done all his training in an intensive program where he thought we needed a Charlie clearance.

asicer said:
Well there's been a couple times I've had controllers forget that I'm VFR and issued me IFR instructions.
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I've had the opposite. "Bugsmasher 1234X, fly north of Ontario." "Uh, what? Just tell us the heading and altitude you want, we're IFR."

PeterNSteinmetz said:
This used to happen a lot in the Phoenix class Bravo. They would provide instructions clearly going through the bravo but no clearance. It would bug my son who was training at the time. They seem to be better about it recently.
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Phoenix had lots of issues with how they deal with VFR traffic over the years.
 
N1120A said:
They are clearing you because they have the authority to do so. If approach control is doing it, it is because a Center authorized it. If a Center is doing it, it is because they are the facility that controls the flight information region.



Reminds me of a VFR flight with a new guy who had done all his training in an intensive program where he thought we needed a Charlie clearance.



I've had the opposite. "Bugsmasher 1234X, fly north of Ontario." "Uh, what? Just tell us the heading and altitude you want, we're IFR."



Phoenix had lots of issues with how they deal with VFR traffic over the years.
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In airspace with CAVU about everyday, “Remain Clear Class B” would resolve all those issues.
 
asicer said:
Well there's been a couple times I've had controllers forget that I'm VFR and issued me IFR instructions.
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Are you sure? Instructions given to VFR traffic on a Class B clearance can sound just like IFR stuff. Vectors, hard altitude assignments, radials to intercept and fly, proceed direct to’s etc. Now if you get a Clearance ‘limit’, Approach Clearance, DP, STAR or something like that, then yeah, they probably boo booed
 
I was flying VFR back from San Diego to Deer Valley, and the controller issued me a clearance that put me far too-close to the PHX Bravo.

I simply said: "Looks like I could clip the Bravo. May I get a clearance?" The controller immediately said the magic words. But yeah, Phx seems to be a little more forgiving, particularly in certain corners of the airspace.

This is one of the reasons I fly IFR even on CAVU days. Being relieved of the threat is very helpful.
 
N1120A said:
They are clearing you because they have the authority to do so. If approach control is doing it, it is because a Center authorized it. If a Center is doing it, it is because they are the facility that controls the flight information region.
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Yeah, but that isnt what is written in 14CFR91. It specifically says who is authorized, and does not say that any facility can authorize it.
 
EdFred said:
Yeah, but that isnt what is written in 14CFR91. It specifically says who is authorized, and does not say that any facility can authorize it.
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It just says "the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area." That's vague enough to mean whatever facility the FAA wants it to mean.
 
luvflyin said:
Are you sure? Instructions given to VFR traffic on a Class B clearance can sound just like IFR stuff. Vectors, hard altitude assignments, radials to intercept and fly, proceed direct to’s etc. Now if you get a Clearance ‘limit’, Approach Clearance, DP, STAR or something like that, then yeah, they probably boo booed
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How about "descend and maintain 6000" while in Class E airspace? Selfridge Approach gave me that instruction once in the Thumb of MI after being handed off by ZOB. I forget what he said when I reminded him that I was VFR, but it was clear he'd mistaken me for an IFR.
 
azure said:
How about "descend and maintain 6000" while in Class E airspace? Selfridge Approach gave me that instruction once in the Thumb of MI after being handed off by ZOB. I forget what he said when I reminded him that I was VFR, but it was clear he'd mistaken me for an IFR.
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Yeah. Sure sounds like he boo booed and thought you were IFR. There are no ‘procedures’ that I know of that include ‘hard’ altitudes to VFR’s in Class E
 
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luvflyin said:
Are you sure? Instructions given to VFR traffic on a Class B clearance can sound just like IFR stuff. Vectors, hard altitude assignments, radials to intercept and fly, proceed direct to’s etc. Now if you get a Clearance ‘limit’, Approach Clearance, DP, STAR or something like that, then yeah, they probably boo booed
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Yeah, I'm sure. When I gave a gentle reminder that I'm VFR it was met with a "Oh, in that case..."

Departing VFR from my IFR checkride, I got a "Cleared for takeoff, downwind departure, remain east of the localizer" but I'm pretty sure tower knew why I was at their airport.
 
The bottom line is simple. FF is a courtesy not a clearance.
 
Dr. O said:
The bottom line is simple. FF is a courtesy not a clearance.
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I once overheard Seattle Approach giving a guy quite a tongue lashing for assuming that FF implied class B clearance.
 
Palmpilot said:
I once overheard Seattle Approach giving a guy quite a tongue lashing for assuming that FF implied class B clearance.
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Sounds like Seattle Approach needs to read the .65. Not surprising though.
 
Velocity173 said:
Sounds like Seattle Approach needs to read the .65. Not surprising though.
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I gather the .65 says they're supposed to catch it when someone on frequency looks like they're about to enter bravo without a clearance?

This was about four years ago, so it may or may not be indicative of current operations.
 
Palmpilot said:
I gather the .65 says they're supposed to catch it when someone on frequency looks like they're about to enter bravo without a clearance?

This was about four years ago, so it may or may not be indicative of current operations.
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Disregard. I miss read your statement. Going on 2 hrs sleep. :( Thought you were saying that Seattle was telling the guy that FF implied a class B clearance.
 
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