Busted Bravo

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I'm a student pilot. While flying solo I accidentally busted Bravo. I was flying around just sightseeing along a lake shore underneath the Bravo shelf and got so engrossed with the view that I flew into an area where the shelf dropped and I busted it by about 1000 feet. I realized what was going on when my TIS traffic alert went off and I saw a large jetliner pass over me and then I realized and looked at the map and knew what I had done. I immediately dived down below the new shelf there and headed back out away from that area. I flew around a little more not really knowing what to do then flew back to my home airport which has a tower. Nobody said anything to me on the radio. So far since then I have heard nothing. This happened about a month ago. How long should I wait before I know nothing will happen?
 
Don't have the answer to that, but I hope you filed an ASRS.
 
Yeah, NASA form and call AOPA legal services if you are a member. As a student you may get some leeway...but maybe not since you were solo and PIC.

Even though it has been a month, you should still fill out the NASA form...you can claim that you didn't become aware of the violation until you looked at the map recently. They might buy that, and the clock doesn't start ticking until you are aware or reasonably should have been aware of the violation.
 
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Does ATC record and save VFR radar tracks?
 
If you weren't greeted when you landed, you aren't going to hear anything. ATC would have tagged you on RADAR, and contacted the tower when they figured out where you were going. You would have had a number to call right then.

And since you are outside the 10 days I would NOT file a ASRS report. It can only hurt you at this point.
 
Can they find him by his transponder ID, or does he just look like "some dude squawking 1200" to ATC? If the latter is the case, and they didn't grab him immediately, then how could they prove it was him? I don't really know how much data and of what type ATC receives.
 
bullwinkle said:
Can they find him by his transponder ID, or does he just look like "some dude squawking 1200" to ATC? If the latter is the case, and they didn't grab him immediately, then how could they prove it was him? I don't really know how much data and of what type ATC receives.
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He went to a towered field. Pretty easy to figure out who it was, even with no RADAR at the class D field and squawking 1200.
 
Yes my home airport is a towered airport. I was convinced they were going to chew me out so I delayed like an hour before I went back in trying to prepare myself for what I thought was going to be an ass chewing like none other. When nothing happened I thought maybe nobody noticed what I had done so I didn't really want to alert anyone by telling my CFI or anyone else. Nobody told me about this ASRS thing otherwise I would have done this. I didn't tell my CFI because I didn't want to get him into trouble for my stupid mistake. What he doesn't know will not hurt him.
 
Unregistered said:
Yes my home airport is a towered airport. I was convinced they were going to chew me out so I delayed like an hour before I went back in trying to prepare myself for what I thought was going to be an ass chewing like none other. When nothing happened I thought maybe nobody noticed what I had done so I didn't really want to alert anyone by telling my CFI or anyone else. Nobody told me about this ASRS thing otherwise I would have done this. I didn't tell my CFI because I didn't want to get him into trouble for my stupid mistake. What he doesn't know will not hurt him.
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I am a student so I don't know most of the above but may I suggest changing the last part of your outlook? If you don't feel comfortable admitting flying mistakes to your CFI, I would re-think things. Hiding mistakes and burying them does not seem like a great method. He may have some good advice and tips on avoiding future mistakes.

The whole point of a CFI is for training on mistakes.
 
Unregistered said:
I'm a student pilot. While flying solo I accidentally busted Bravo. I was flying around just sightseeing along a lake shore underneath the Bravo shelf and got so engrossed with the view that I flew into an area where the shelf dropped and I busted it by about 1000 feet. I realized what was going on when my TIS traffic alert went off and I saw a large jetliner pass over me and then I realized and looked at the map and knew what I had done. I immediately dived down below the new shelf there and headed back out away from that area. I flew around a little more not really knowing what to do then flew back to my home airport which has a tower. Nobody said anything to me on the radio. So far since then I have heard nothing. This happened about a month ago. How long should I wait before I know nothing will happen?
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Like pass over you how close?
 
Unregistered said:
When nothing happened I thought maybe nobody noticed what I had done so I didn't really want to alert anyone by telling my CFI or anyone else. Nobody told me about this ASRS thing otherwise I would have done this. I didn't tell my CFI because I didn't want to get him into trouble for my stupid mistake. What he doesn't know will not hurt him.
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Whether you realize this or not, when you fly as a student pilot, you are essentually flying under your instructor's ticket. If you mess up, he is ultimately the one that will be called to the FSDO carpet dance. Had you told him, you could have filed an ASRS report together. By not telling him, you could still get him in trouble, and he'd be blindsided by an FAA inspector rather than you.

Imagine this...the tower doesn't get the call right away from the approach controller, but by following your track and time they identify which plane and tail number committed the incursion. The tower hands that information off to the FSDO, which sends a certified letter to the owner of the airplane. If it's a lease back, it will take some time before it makes it back to the flight school. The school will review the records and determine who was flying the plane. As a Student Pilot, your instructor will be the one getting the call from the Flight School Chief pilot to respond to the FAA. See where this could go?

It's likely nothing will come of this, but if it does, your instructor will not be happy. If I were your instructor and found out about this after the fact, you can be 100% certain I would no longer be your instructor.

Timmer said:
I am a student so I don't know most of the above but may I suggest changing the last part of your outlook? If you don't feel comfortable admitting flying mistakes to your CFI, I would re-think things. Hiding mistakes and burying them does not seem like a great method. He may have some good advice and tips on avoiding future mistakes.

The whole point of a CFI is for training on mistakes.
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You've got it.
 
bullwinkle said:
Can they find him by his transponder ID, or does he just look like "some dude squawking 1200" to ATC? If the latter is the case, and they didn't grab him immediately, then how could they prove it was him? I don't really know how much data and of what type ATC receives.
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Today with a standard Mode-C xpndr, it's just another 1200 code they could track to landing in most areas. With ADSB-Out, even on a 1200 code, they get your unique ID and will know the tail number.

If its been 30 days, they probably did not track you to landing.
 
Doesn't have to be a towered field. Had a friend bust Atlanta Class B, flew on for 45 minutes to land at a non-towered field. He was met on the ramp by the FBO with a "Atlanta Approach called. Please call this number immediately."

Nothing serious. He had a nice chat with approach, agreed not to do it again and to pay attention to the airspace.
 
In any event, if you haven't heard yet, you aren't going to hear. However, even though there's no waiver of sanction provided by a NASA ASRS report filed more than 10 days after the event, there still may be lessons learned for others, and it is still anonymous and cannot be used to initiate any action against you. Finally, yes, you really should discuss this with your instructor, under whose authority you are flying, and who is responsible for what you do.
 
I'm kind of amazed I'm saying this but notwithstanding the culpability/liability aspect of this, I hope you recognize the potential for a seriously bad outcome.

Imagine the headlines after you're dead in a flaming pile of debris after hitting an airliner. "Small plane strays into restricted airspace and hundreds die, with more fatalities expected on the ground after the Boeing 777 slammed into the ground at Washington combined primary and middle school."
 
docmirror said:
I'm kind of amazed I'm saying this but notwithstanding the culpability/liability aspect of this, I hope you recognize the potential for a seriously bad outcome.

Imagine the headlines after you're dead in a flaming pile of debris after hitting an airliner. "Small plane strays into restricted airspace and hundreds die, with more fatalities expected on the ground after the Boeing 777 slammed into the ground at Washington combined primary and middle school."
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sensationalistic much?



....
 
BillTIZ said:
Today with a standard Mode-C xpndr, it's just another 1200 code they could track to landing in most areas. With ADSB-Out, even on a 1200 code, they get your unique ID and will know the tail number.

If its been 30 days, they probably did not track you to landing.
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So if you didn't want to get caught, fly to someplace not your home field with no tower, then turn off the transponder and fly home?
 
Looks like you caught a break, you may not be so lucky next time. not paying attention as a student is a bad habit to acquire.
 
bullwinkle said:
So if you didn't want to get caught, fly to someplace not your home field with no tower, then turn off the transponder and fly home?
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Best bet would be to make it look like you were going to land at a private field, then kill the transponder when you get low enough that your interrogation light quits blinking. Then remain at that altitude and fly to another field (not your home field), and when in the pattern then turn it back on, then fly to your home field.

You know, if you were to be such a scofflaw.
 
bullwinkle said:
So if you didn't want to get caught, fly to someplace not your home field with no tower, then turn off the transponder and fly home?
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Still not a guarantee -- especially around here, where turning off your transponder and flying low won't stop them from tracking you. If you really don't want to get caught, the only sure course of action is don't bust B-space in the first place.
 
Ron Levy said:
Still not a guarantee -- especially around here, where turning off your transponder and flying low won't stop them from tracking you. If you really don't want to get caught, the only sure course of action is don't bust B-space in the first place.
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Of course, this is all speculative.
 
Unregistered said:
What he doesn't know will not hurt him.
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Unfortunately, that's wrong. Before you get your ticket, he is responsible for you. If you do get dinged for this, he will too, unless he entered the appropriate training for Class B ops in your log book.

But I agree, if you have heard nothing yet, you are probably clear. But tell your CFI!

-Skip
 
if you think you need more training on situational awareness you probably do - if the airliner did not report a TCAS resolution advisory and did not deviate [and ATC did not notice a conflict and tag you] then there is probably nothing to do but fess up to your instructor. Its better than being in a few thousand pieces on the ground with your last vision a jetliner on fire after you hit him or he hits you . . .
 
If they took notice and wanted to talk to you, they'd have let you know by now. Especially since you're at a towered field. You would have gotten a "call this number" message from the tower.

Keep it in your mind as a lesson learned. We all have them.
 
My sense is that it would depend on the controller at the time and the facility you are talking about.

On a popular aviation podcast, one of the hosts told a story of flying from a Boston periphery airport to KPSM/Pease as a student pilot. Called up Boston Approach for flight following, and was greeted with "are you familiar with the Boston Class Bravo?". I believe he was given a vector out, and continued on his way with FF. No phone numbers, no suspensions, no rulers over the knuckles....
 
deeruck said:
My sense is that it would depend on the controller at the time and the facility you are talking about.

On a popular aviation podcast, one of the hosts told a story of flying from a Boston periphery airport to KPSM/Pease as a student pilot. Called up Boston Approach for flight following, and was greeted with "are you familiar with the Boston Class Bravo?". I believe he was given a vector out, and continued on his way with FF. No phone numbers, no suspensions, no rulers over the knuckles....
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As long as there is no loss of separation which triggers the tell-tales, and it's not around a security TFR like the DC SFRA with the military watching, controllers have the option of brief on-the-spot over-the-air counseling with a "now go and sin no more" result. If the alarms are triggered, that option is lost.
 
Ron Levy said:
As long as there is no loss of separation which triggers the tell-tales, and it's not around a security TFR like the DC SFRA with the military watching, controllers have the option of brief on-the-spot over-the-air counseling with a "now go and sin no more" result. If the alarms are triggered, that option is lost.
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Perhaps Mark can clarify but when I did ATC a 1200 wouldn't trigger a CA and the subsequent "computer snitch" report. I know ARTCCs had CA with 1200 codes but at the time approach facilities didn't. It had to be a discrete VFR assigned by the controller to trigger a CA. That was a while ago though so possibly their software has been updated.

Either way, I agree, if no sep was lost and he didn't get notified by the tower to call, then he's good. Even if he did get notified today, he could have a case based on not being notified in a timely manner about his PD. I'm sure AOPA legal services could answer that though.
 
I was in a flight where the PIC was screamed at by the tower for busting Bravo. There were no separation issues, and, according to him, nothing happened. I am not an expert in these matters, but that is the only experience I have had.

I did have an experience flying out of PWK where ATC extended my downwind when I was flying an Arrow on rwy 34. For those of you not familiar with RWY 16/34 at PWK, the end of 34 is very close to ORD Bravo. I had to remind ATC and ask if I could turn xwind, he said yes and then yelled at me as I "still had a 1/2 mile to go". Better safe than sorry is my motto....
 
Velocity173 said:
Perhaps Mark can clarify but when I did ATC a 1200 wouldn't trigger a CA and the subsequent "computer snitch" report. I know ARTCCs had CA with 1200 codes but at the time approach facilities didn't. It had to be a discrete VFR assigned by the controller to trigger a CA. That was a while ago though so possibly their software has been updated.



Either way, I agree, if no sep was lost and he didn't get notified by the tower to call, then he's good. Even if he did get notified today, he could have a case based on not being notified in a timely manner about his PD. I'm sure AOPA legal services could answer that though.
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Our facility has CA alerts on all aircraft. Don't know about the snitch, I don't work in QA. :)

If we have to violate a Bravo buster, we typically make them call as soon as they land.


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MarkZ said:
Our facility has CA alerts on all aircraft. Don't know about the snitch, I don't work in QA. :)

If we have to violate a Bravo buster, we typically make them call as soon as they land.


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Cool. I used the old TPX-42 with ARTS IIIa...junk!
 
MarkZ said:
If we have to violate a Bravo buster, we typically make them call as soon as they land.
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Just a technical point here. Controllers cannot "violate" anyone. The controller can submit a form 8020-17 through ATQA (Air Traffic Quality Assurance) and the report goes to the FSDO in the district of the event and is assigned to an Inspector to investigate.

The Inspector follows with a 8020-18, gathers information and makes the determination if a violation did indeed occur.

If the PD was an airspace bust it usually ends with counseling and is closed out. If a loss of separation occurred a bit more in depth investigation will occur, but again could be closed out with counseling or may lead to a documented flight review or possible violation.

As always if you get caught in one of these the best policy is to be cooperative. The Inspector has to complete the form so all of the information is entered into the ATQA, which may show a potential problem with ATC in that area that needs to be corrected.

FWIW, I did several of these while in GA (FSDO) and I would say less than 2 or 3% result in a violation.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Just a technical point here. Controllers cannot "violate" anyone. The controller can submit a form 8020-17 through ATQA (Air Traffic Quality Assurance) and the report goes to the FSDO in the district of the event and is assigned to an Inspector to investigate.

The Inspector follows with a 8020-18, gathers information and makes the determination if a violation did indeed occur.

If the PD was an airspace bust it usually ends with counseling and is closed out. If a loss of separation occurred a bit more in depth investigation will occur, but again could be closed out with counseling or may lead to a documented flight review or possible violation.

As always if you get caught in one of these the best policy is to be cooperative. The Inspector has to complete the form so all of the information is entered into the ATQA, which may show a potential problem with ATC in that area that needs to be corrected.

FWIW, I did several of these while in GA (FSDO) and I would say less than 2 or 3% result in a violation.
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For Class B and the like, that's all true. For security TFR's like the DC SFRA, the Inspector has little choice but to process it as an enforcement action ("violation") rather than an administrative action such as counseling. So if you're going to bust airspace, please try not to do it around where I live.
 
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