Box canyon turn?

[Inverted]

I think those are closer to hammerhead turns, no?

A Skyhawk doing a Hammerhead? Ummm no.

 

[alfadog]

Best answer yet....

I practice and actually do box canyon turns alot... Of course, living in the mountains surely helps.. My situation and the plane I fly is quite different from most others... but.. I can do a 180, SAFELY... in about 300-350 feet in width.. Convert speed to altitude... bleed off till you get to VA and crank into a knife edge and use the altitude you bought about 3 seconds earlier into airspeed on the downrun.. Like the good DR said.... DON"T STALL..

Ps... Both well known mountain flying pilots/authors.. Sparky and Fletcher Anderson were both based out of Jackson Hole... Both were a bit cocky and arrogent... Both wrote books on what NOT to do..... Both died during EXACTLY what they wrote NOT to do.......

What are you doing that in? Also, in a 172, do you recommend flaps and how much? Why so fast? Va is almost 2 x stall speed. Well, if you are going over 60d bank then yes.

I am sure there are different ways to turn around and some are more "aerobatic" then others. You method is one of those, I think.

 

[N801BH]

What are you doing that in? Also, in a 172, do you recommend flaps and how much? Why so fast? Va is almost 2 x stall speed. Well, if you are going over 60d bank then yes.

I am sure there are different ways to turn around and some are more "aerobatic" then others. You method is one of those, I think.

When confronted with having to actually DO a box canyon turn.... To hell with the FAR rules... Keep the maneuver positive G's and get the hell out with a rapid 180.... Deal with the legal paperwork later.....

 

[alfadog]

A Skyhawk doing a Hammerhead? Ummm no.

One description I have come across is "halfway between a chandelle and a hammerhead". Also there was the video I posted of a CFI showing a student something like what you describe in a DA20. What it looks like is something close to a spin entry.

And ummm, why would he not be doing a hammerhead in the Skyhawk? Are you implying that he never exceeded "normal" bank and pitch limits for non-aerobatic flight?

 

[alfadog]

When confronted with having to actually DO a box canyon turn.... To hell with the FAR rules... Keep the maneuver positive G's and get the hell out with a rapid 180.... Deal with the legal paperwork later.....

Not talking abut FARs - just the questions I asked.

 

[N801BH]

Not talking abut FARs just the questions I asked.

No prob sir....... Better to get home to eat dinner........ then to be the lead story in the evening news while all the others are eating dinner.......

 

[alfadog]

No prob sir....... Better to get home to eat dinner........ then to be the lead story in the evening news while all the others are eating dinner.......

Enjoy!

 

[Jeff Oslick]

and there will be times that even if you have flaps and retractable landing gear and even speed brakes - you will be 3 miles from the airport at 3000AGL because ATC needs you there to prevent you from hitting someone else. . . . and at that point your choices are a) a looong final and a 360 or two, or b) a slip. It's always fun to fly sideways, isn't it?

Exactly. From about my 5th flight lesson in a C-150 my flight instructor taught me how to aggressively use slips to put the aircraft exactly where I want it. I routinely practice using slips in simulated emergency exercises. There is a wide range of reasons to use a slip that have nothing to do with poor planning. If you don't practice them, you won't be proficient or comfortable with them when you really need it.

 

[EdFred]

Until you are descending into an area where descending sooner will kill you. That is a very 1 dimensional way of looking at things.

Perhaps reading what I first wrote would provide a better perspective.

without a crosswind or obstacles in the approach path,

Holy ****ing ****....I did take that into account!!!

Comprehension is good.

 

[alfadog]

Here is something from Whitt's page. It speaks to the different methods touched on and that some are more aerobatic than others. It touches on doing hammerheads in a Skyhawk.

Here is my point and my question. If you were teaching a competent but non-aerobatic pilot how to make what is essentially a minimum-radius level turn, what would you teach? Yes, you get the vertical involved to trade your extra speed for altitude but the "box canyon turn" I think I am asking about is basically a level turn and, to me, that makes sense at minimum speed and maximum bank with a margin of safety above the accelerated stall.

http://www.whittsflying.com/web/page3.24Turns_and_Level_Are_Complex.htm

"Blind Canyon Turn

The infamous "blind canyon 180" can get you into a mess of trouble if you don't have a complete understanding of minimum radius turn theory. Just hauling back with full power isn't the whole story here by a long shot. You might not have the room to make it using a level turn. First of all, the stall speed increases by the square root of the load factor x the wings level stall speed as bank is increased, so if you have a stall speed of 60kts wings level, you will pay off at 85kts in a 60 degree bank. And this is just the beginning of the story. There is also a specific airspeed where minimum radius, best rate, and maximum available g can be married to produce an optimum turn. In fighters, we call this corner velocity or corner speed.

For a typical general aviation light airplane, this speed can be found at the intersection of the aerodynamic limit and limit load factor lines on a v/g diagram. It loosely translates to your Va or maneuver speed. Remember, this all applies to level turns. It's possible to reduce the turning radius even more than this by using the vertical plane in the turn. Again in fighters, we call this a high yo yo. You can consider it a wingover. By raising the nose and bleeding off airspeed, then allowing the nose to come through the turn with maximum bank unloaded, you can severely reduce the horizontal turn radius for the turn. There is a level of performance even above these maneuvers that is possible with aerobatic training, even if performed in a normal category airplane. If performed properly by a trained pilot, a hammerhead turn will produce an absolute minimum radius 180 by using the vertical plane almost entirely to reduce the horizontal turning component to near zero. This would be considered an emergency procedure in a normal category aircraft, although it can easily be done within the allowable load factor limits. (emphasis added)

The bottom line on blind canyon turns is this. Don't get caught in this situation in the first place, but if you fly in terrain where an emergency maximum performance turn could save your life, go out and get some competent instruction in these procedures. .Just yanking it around with power isn't the way to go!
Fly safely, Dudley A. Henriques

The Pirouette Turn

Pre-decisions are credited by accident survivors as having much to do with their success. The pirouette,
pivot turn, is an emergency escape procedure as a last option when you have run out of aircraft performance and turning room. The entry into this situation requires a continuous series of bad decisions. Even then the pirouette will not be of help unless you have practiced to proficiency. An incorrectly performed turn will only make a bad situation worse. This means you must practice it. More importantly, the pilot who understands the factors leading to will never need to make the turn.

The pirouette turn allows a 180-degree turn with a minimum radius and no loss of altitude. This is a maximum performance turn required when you have run out of performance. The procedure is to reduce to idle power, put in full flaps and maintain wings level. Then before you begin to sink you put in full power, pitch up the nose and kick in full left rudder. Milk off the flaps.

The aircraft will have made 180-degrees of turn faster than you can say what to do. It is most effective to the left. But could be done to the right if you did not add power. The bank angle should be shallow enough to avoid a stall but steep enough to minimize the turn radius. It is my opinion that this maneuver could be practiced at altitude but perfected at real or simulated high-density altitudes."

 

[Jim Logajan]

"The necessity of a box canyon turn is an admission that you have violated the basic premises of mountain flight." - Sparky

In westerns it seems someone often ends up riding into a box canyon being chased by a posse or some bad guys.

 

[Geico266]

Canyon flying can be fun and exciting if you do it right, in the right aircraft. One tip is to don't go up the middle. This cuts your turning radius in half.

 

[bbchien]

Now, which GA aircraft, say at 8,000 feet have enough energy to do a hammerhead turn....? Esp since the airspeed is genenrally low as the pilot has been tyring to milk Vx climb for sometime before the crisis?

Yah, if Tweetie has enough airspeed to avoid a compressor stall you can do one in....but we're talking 160 hp aircraft operating at 65% flat out power at 8,000, or 106 hp.

YGBFSM.

 

[Silvaire]

In reality, how do you end up in this situation to begin with?

In most cases you make a wrong turn. This happened to a guy and his wife in a 172 leaving Johnson Creek Idaho a few summers ago. When he got to Yellow Pine he turned east and there are three diverging canyons at that point however there is another spur just as you reach Yellow Pine and he must have mistaken that as being one of them so instead of going up what he thought was the middle one he actually went up the left one and once in it the 172 could not out climb the rising terrain. By the time he realized the predicament he was in he was in no position to be carrying out any crazy exhibitionist, semi-aerobatic maneuvers at low speed and high density altitude. He was barely keeping the thing flying at that point.

Obviously the key is to never get yourself into a situation such as this but the mountains can be amazingly deceiving at times, especially given conditions of visibility that are less than ideal. It's happened to the best of us.

 

[Tom-D]

Now, which GA aircraft, say at 8,000 feet have enough energy to do a hammerhead turn....?

YGBFSM.

A 150 horse Super Cub.
A 145 horse C-170.

 

[flyingron]

The safer way is to fly in the top of the Canyon. They typically get wider and lower as you go downstream.

 

[Tom-D]

Obviously the key is to never get yourself into a situation such as this but the mountains can be amazingly deceiving at times, especially given conditions of visibility that are less than ideal. It's happened to the best of us.

 

[NoHeat]

Here's what I was taught in a mountain flying lesson in a 172. I took the lesson at Glacier Park in Montana, btw, not here in Iowa.

First, slow down 300 rpm and pitch up to get slow. Second, simultaneously do three things: slam on full throttle, drop full flaps, 60-degree coordinated bank. All while pulling hard on the yoke to stay level and listening to the stall horn. This maneuver gives you a 180 degree turn with a turning diameter as small as 100 feet, in a Cessna 172.

 

[alaskaflyer]

Here's what I was taught in a mountain flying lesson in a 172. I took the lesson at Glacier Park in Montana, btw, not here in Iowa.

First, slow down 300 rpm and pitch up to get slow. Second, simultaneously do three things: slam on full throttle, drop full flaps, 60-degree coordinated bank. All while pulling hard on the yoke to stay level and listening to the stall horn. This maneuver gives you a 180 degree turn with a turning diameter as small as 100 feet, in a Cessna 172.

From Dave Hoerner?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I think those are closer to hammerhead turns, no?

Some boxes at the end of their canyons are tighter than others....

The only time I sense any noticeably higher G forces in the most aggressive version of this so-called Box Canyon maneuver is when pulling out of the dive, and that can be very much minimized with practice, at altitude for both safety and to practice high DA ops.

 

[alfadog]

Here's what I was taught in a mountain flying lesson in a 172. I took the lesson at Glacier Park in Montana, btw, not here in Iowa.

First, slow down 300 rpm and pitch up to get slow. Second, simultaneously do three things: slam on full throttle, drop full flaps, 60-degree coordinated bank. All while pulling hard on the yoke to stay level and listening to the stall horn. This maneuver gives you a 180 degree turn with a turning diameter as small as 100 feet, in a Cessna 172.

Thanks. More like what I had in mind. Level and no aerobatics. I assume that the assumption in that dropping RPM is that you need to turn NOW and do not even have the time to trade any excess speed for altitude.

 

[Jeanie]

In reality, how do you end up in this situation to begin with?

In most cases you make a wrong turn. This happened to a guy and his wife in a 172 leaving Johnson Creek Idaho a few summers ago. When he got to Yellow Pine he turned east and there are three diverging canyons at that point however there is another spur just as you reach Yellow Pine and he must have mistaken that as being one of them so instead of going up what he thought was the middle one he actually went up the left one and once in it the 172 could not out climb the rising terrain. By the time he realized the predicament he was in he was in no position to be carrying out any crazy exhibitionist, semi-aerobatic maneuvers at low speed and high density altitude. He was barely keeping the thing flying at that point.

Obviously the key is to never get yourself into a situation such as this but the mountains can be amazingly deceiving at times, especially given conditions of visibility that are less than ideal. It's happened to the best of us.

~~~~~ Did they make it out?

 

[Silvaire]

~~~~~ Did they make it out?

No, the wife survived but the husband didn't.

 

[bbchien]

Thanks. More like what I had in mind. Level and no aerobatics. I assume that the assumption in that dropping RPM is that you need to turn NOW and do not even have the time to trade any excess speed for altitude.

The problem with the Hoerner approach is that there are precious seconds in which the additional KwH from the engine can produce enough work to keep you out of the trees. I disagree with his approach only in that I would not reduce power to get the airspeed down, I would convert it right into altitude and not waste the power over time.

Sometimes a few Kw-secs can be just critical.

You gotta be good, though. This is like the emergency engine out turnback. You have to rehearse of you will flub it. And Die. Kinda like the engine out turnback....

 

[alfadog]

The problem with the Hoerner approach is that there are precious seconds in which the additional KwH from the engine can produce enough work to keep you out of the trees. I disagree with his approach only in that I would not reduce power to get the airspeed down, I would convert it right into altitude and not waste the power over time.

Sometimes a few Kw-secs can be just critical.

You gotta be good, though. This is like the emergency engine out turnback. You have to rehearse of you will flub it. And Die. Kinda like the engine out turnback....

That is my thinking on it too. If there is not a cliff face in front of you, add full power and climb as you drop any excess speed and add the flaps. If there is a cliff face in front, well, there is always that hammerhead.

 

[NoHeat]

From Dave Hoerner?

The instructor was a veteran mountain-flier, Bill Werner. It was a great experience while on vacation.

Montana is a good place to do it, too. Similar terrain but lower altitude than Colorado.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I always show this type of maneuver at about 3000' DA and also over 10,000' DA to impress on the flight student the huge difference in performance AND handling.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I was watching as the countdown approached zero thinking: "This has got to be the dumbest airplane trick ever filmed."

 

[Silvaire]

I was watching as the countdown approached zero thinking: "This has got to be the dumbest airplane trick ever filmed."

Box canyons don't have still water rivers in them and if you descend down into a canyon from a vantage point high above and can't get back out it has nothing to do with the canyon, it's because you're an idiot.

 

[flyingron]

Simply flying through the imaginary wall or floor of the Class B would have been a better solution. There was no canyon, other than the imaginary one.

And once he conceeded flying through the imaginary wall (which he busted) he could have shallowed out and gone around the far side of the wall he did hit. It wasn't a canyon, just a single pinnacle in his way.

 

[EdFred]

You could, but then there is that obstacle that is listed in the AF/D that you planned to slip the airplane once its cleared.

Reading not your strong suit?

 

[Fearless Tower]

I disagree with his approach only in that I would not reduce power to get the airspeed down, I would convert it right into altitude and not waste the power over time.

This - unless you are trying do this 'box canyon' maneuver underneath something like Class B airspace, you can only benefit by climbing during the maneuver, and you will bleed your airspeed off much quicker by pulling the nose up than simply pulling the power off.

 

[EdFred]

My reading is fine, you just tend to use poor illustrations to make your points.

I think you need to read my first post a bit more carefully, or perhaps comprehension is the issue.

 

[zaitcev]

More aggressive bank than a chandelle, I would think.

I think you're approaching the whole thing from a wrong angle, trying to identify a fixed procedure. But in real life your objective is to stay off the canyon wall and do it right in the face of a) canyon being crooked, forked, or shallow, b) wind across the canyon or along the canyon. Therefore, the only thing you need to know is the optimum airspeed at which your turn circle is smallest. This circle may be flat, when you make a horizontal turn, or it may be oblique, which made people talk about the hammerhead turns in the thread. But in practice you may have to slow down, in which case raising the nose is probably the right thing to do: altitude isn't going to hurt. Once coming on the dot, roll with a bootful of rudder and make your turn, but make sure you're not slowing down off your best speed, you'll make the circle worse. Go full power if necesary.

Neither you or I are airshow pilots. Keep it simple and do what's needed to maximize the performance, according to the moment. Don't try to stick to a preconceived procedure. Heck in some cases merely zooming will take you above the canyon rim, then you can turn as wide as you want.

When I flew with Marc Coan, he made me do actual turns inside a real canyon, so I get used to estimating the circle size for various airspeeds versus the canyon walls. It's eye-opening.