Bombshell

bob8619 said:
He gave me an alternate method to be cleared for a 3rd class, 24 months proof of sobriety via testing and going to couselling and AA and then after completing that they give the 3rd class and you stay under supervision for 24 more months. That's something I'm considering
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That I'll believe, I know they are pretty strict in cases where someone is functional at >0.15 because it is considered a sign of tolerance, and tolerance implies long term abuse.

If Bruce said your ONLY recourse was inpatient rehab 12 years after the fact I was going to call BS - and ask whether you were SURE you were actually talking to Bruce.
 
A few thoughts.

Dr Bruce is the final word on all things medical with the FAA.

Don't bother with AOPA.

Notwithstanding the 3rd class med, the advice on 24 months tested sobriety, AA, and counseling sounds like a good idea. Bonus if it leads to a 3rd class medical, which gets you back in the LSA graces as well.

Finally, if you want to get back in the air for the sheer joy of it, and don't really want to go anywhere, you can fly several categories even after a denial. Ultralights under 254Lbs empty weight, power parachutes, some gliders(sailplanes) will allow you to fly with serious limitations. FAA part 103 covers the regs but the short answer is there are basically no regulations that cover who can fly an ultralight, and most of the regulations deal with the restrictions on the class of aircraft.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultralight_aviation)

If you decide to go the UltraLight category, please be aware, that although there are no regs with respect to the pilotage, I strongly encourage you to continue some dual training, and respect the ultralights as aircraft, even though they are classified as a 'air vehicle' from the FAA.
 
docmirror said:
A few thoughts.

Dr Bruce is the final word on all things medical with the FAA.

Don't bother with AOPA.

Notwithstanding the 3rd class med, the advice on 24 months tested sobriety, AA, and counseling sounds like a good idea. Bonus if it leads to a 3rd class medical, which gets you back in the LSA graces as well.
.
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:yeahthat:

This is your path. Don't look for another route, Dr Chien is the man here. It won't get better, besides, he didn't invent this. If you go ask another doctor, they're going to go to the same FAA that Dr Chien went to and now it looks like you're trying to avoid it.

If you think it's a burden then unfortunately my advice to you would have to be not to try.
 
Proving my sobriety wouldnt be a burden since I have given up all drinking all together so theres nothing to hide there. My only reason for being hesitant is because he mention ECT which I am assuming stands for Electroconvulsive therapy. I'm hoping he meant that if a psychiatrist says I need it I would be required to do it and not that its just an absolutely required step. I'm a little reluctant about shocking my brain for a 12 year old DUI.
 
Yeah seems mighty extreme. I'm not even OK with being prescribed pills to "fix my brain" let alone shock therapy .
 
bob8619 said:
Yeah seems mighty extreme. I'm not even OK with be prescribed pills to "fix my brain" let alone shock therapy .
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My dad was clinical director of Psychiatry for the state of Missouri for over 20 years and he wrote several things on the ineffectiveness of ECT to produce a lasting long term result. He gave up on the whole process.
 
Yeah if it is a without a doubt a requirement then that will be the sure sign that this isn't worth it for me. I read about the memory loss risk and all that. No way, not happening. It seems it might be a last resort type thing though.
 
bob8619 said:
Yeah if it is a without a doubt a requirement then that will be the sure sign that this isn't worth it for me. I read about the memory loss risk and all that. No way, not happening. It seems it might be a last resort type thing though.
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I can't imagine it being a requirement. Go to SSA.org and find a glider club near you.
 
I seriously, seriously doubt that any ECT would be required without a clear clinical finding. If he 'mentioned' it, you better get some specifics on the diagnosis to justify. If that is the req protocol, then yeah - no way I would submit to that. It's completely unjustified but in keeping with the FAA over-intrusiveness.
 
bob8619 said:
Proving my sobriety wouldnt be a burden since I have given up all drinking all together so theres nothing to hide there. My only reason for being hesitant is because he mention ECT which I am assuming stands for Electroconvulsive therapy. I'm hoping he meant that if a psychiatrist says I need it I would be required to do it and not that its just an absolutely required step. I'm a little reluctant about shocking my brain for a 12 year old DUI.
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Let's get this straight:

A licensed medical doctor mentioned to you that you might need electroshock therapy in order to qualify for a 3rd class medical?
 
Jay Honeck said:
Let's get this straight:

A licensed medical doctor mentioned to you that you might need electroshock therapy in order to qualify for a 3rd class medical?
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Yeah Dr. Bruce mentioned it in an email. I 'm waiting to hear back from him to see if he meant its a required step or if he meant sometimes a psychiatrist will say its necessary.
 
Sorry guys I'm dumb. I read the email this morning after waking up and he said "ETC" which I screwed up and converted to ETC, which I then googled and saw the shock therapy stuff which relates to emotional disorders so I thought it fit into the scheme of things. Sheesh I really twisted that one up.

He emailed me confused as all heck about what I was talking about lol
 
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bob8619 said:
Yeah Dr. Bruce mentioned it in an email. I 'm waiting to hear back from him to see if he meant its a required step or if he meant sometimes a psychiatrist will say its necessary.
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We will be interested to hear the clarification.
 
I just clarified it one post above yours Jay
 
bob8619 said:
Sorry guys I'm dumb. I read the email this morning after waking up and he said "ETC" which I screwed up and converted to ETC, which I then googled and saw the shock therapy stuff which relates to emotional disorders so I thought it fit into the scheme of things. Sheesh I really twisted that one up.
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Ok, that makes a lot more sense.:lol:
 
bob8619 said:
Sorry guys I'm dumb. I read the email this morning after waking up and he said "ETC" which I screwed up and converted to ETC, which I then googled and saw the shock therapy stuff which relates to emotional disorders so I thought it fit into the scheme of things. Sheesh I really twisted that one up.

He emailed me confused as all heck about what I was talking about lol
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This clarification confuses me further. :D
 
Jay Honeck said:
Let's get this straight:

A licensed medical doctor mentioned to you that you might need electroshock therapy in order to qualify for a 3rd class medical?
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:yeahthat:

I'm calling BS on this one.

edit: okay, read further and he didn't say that at all... so what is ETC?
 
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Yeah, that didn't add up.

So, I guess what I would do is start that 24 month tested sobriety, get into counseling and attend some AA, keep flying with an instructor if you want but get the medical stuff done as the FAA and Dr Bruce demand. Then, if you get a denial, you'll be looking at UL, gliders or something, unless you always want to fly with a CFI. Maybe in a few years things will be different.
 
He emailed back and said "And I meant ETG, which it ethylglucuronide, an metabolite of alcohol in the urine…. sigh."

Haha, at least its been an interesting discussion with him.
 
bob8619 said:
He emailed back and said "And I meant ETG, which it ethylglucuronide, an metabolite of alcohol in the urine…. sigh."

Haha, at least its been an interesting discussion with him.
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Now that makes more sense. Luckily, he's a much better AME than typist. :)
 
azure said:
Now that makes more sense. Luckily, he's a much better AME than typist. :)
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Yup...

ETG makes sense. I would guess that he is referring to the many whiz quizzes Bob will be undergoing during his journey. This is the information that it will be looked for and if it's found, it's not a good thing.

All in all, it sounds like there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel.
 
You can paraglide and hang glide without a medical, in addition to the other types of flying mentioned.
 
bob8619 said:
Proving my sobriety wouldnt be a burden since I have given up all drinking all together so theres nothing to hide there.
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Good to know - Appearance is everything.

And I might need to correct something - Dr Chien might have had significant input into the protocols the FAA uses for clearing pilots, so it's possible that he actually might have invented it.

He's a good guy and wants pilots to fly when they can. Just be open and honest with him. What he says is coming from negotiation with the FAA. There's no other path.
 
Talked to Dr Bruce again today and I guess its possible to get my student medical certificate up front so I can at least continue/finish training while in the process of proving sobriety. Thats definitely welcomed news, waiting to hear back from him about how to do this.

EDIT: And hopefully its not another typo :D
 
bob8619 said:
Talked to Dr Bruce again today and I guess its possible to get my student medical certificate up front so I can at least continue/finish training while in the process of proving sobriety. Thats definitely welcomed news, waiting to hear back from him about how to do this.

EDIT: And hopefully its not another typo :D
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Well, that'll get you through the first 2 years at least being able to solo.
 
Yeah it was another very unfortunate typo on his part. My original question was asking if he thought there was any way that they would grant the student certificate so that I could train while I had the money. His answer was "Absolutely so." Maybe I'm crazy but I took that as meaning yes there is a way.
 
His reply to me asking him to confirm what he said:

"Robert, I laid it all out. Wishing it were not so can't make it so.


No, you will not get a certificate of any sort until one of the routes below has been completed. ReRead it if you must.

In business, "no" may mean "ask again". But in regulatory matters, "no" is just that. You do undestand the meaining of "no?", right….:("
 
I just think there has to be a doctor out there who isn't so "one size fits all". Even after my DUI the first step was an evaluation to see if I needed counseling and AA. They didn't just ship me into alcohol counseling.

Surely theres a doc somewhere that would rather have me evaluated before just saying that "option A is inpatient rehab, option B is AA for 2 years". Those would be suitable for a fresh drug/alcohol infraction but is there really no consideration given to the fact that mine is over a decade old? I mean what kind of inpatient rehab would even take a patient before making sure they were in need of rehab?
 
bob8619 said:
I just think there has to be a doctor out there who isn't so "one size fits all". Even after my DUI the first step was an evaluation to see if I needed counseling and AA. They didn't just ship me into alcohol counseling.

Surely theres a doc somewhere that would rather have me evaluated before just saying that "option A is inpatient rehab, option B is AA for 2 years". Those would be suitable for a fresh drug/alcohol infraction but is there really no consideration given to the fact that mine is over a decade old? I mean what kind of inpatient rehab would even take a patient before making sure they were in need of rehab?
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Thing is, it's not up to the doctor, it's up to the FAA, and these are the options the FAA gives you, or you can just go **** yourself. The FAA doesn't want violent alcoholic felons, so you follow their program or you won't get a medical. Bruce isn't making this stuff up on his own, he's a Senior AME who works within the system that he has to. Hell, if it wasn't for him the SSRI protocol likely wouldn't exist. The FAA would rather see you go away, and it's the FAA that's going to issue, not the AME.
 
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