Body numbness in first flight?

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Ortiz94

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Ortiz94
Hey guys, recently took the leap to do my first flight with an instructor in a single piston engine Piper. I was honestly doing fine and tried to take control of the aircraft as much as possible from take off to cruising so as to not just be a spectator. But then when we turned around and started doing the descent to land, my body and arms were gradually getting number and number and I felt light headed/out of focus. As soon we hit the ground, I opened the door and immediately felt better, but it still took a while to fully recover. I've never experienced this feeling before.

Anyone have ideas on what it could have been? I really want to go for more flights and earn a license, but I see this as potential issue. This has definitely happened to other new pilots in training.
 
Hyperventilation. Breathing a little fast can be unnoticed and results in some blood chemistry changes that produce a tingling sensation in the extremities. It just means you were a bit excited...
 
Sounds like a possible side effect from a case of the bumblebee’s.
 
Sounds like a panic attack. Maybe you were hyperventilating some also.

Then there is the chance there is a CO leak in that plane.
 
Spot on (hyperventilation) - it's weird, but I have seen it. We had a crew chief in my C-130 days; crew chiefs normally didn't fly on tactical (air drop) missions, as the doctrine was minimal crew for low-levels. But this time we simulated a drop after returning from Europe, so the crew chief was on-board. He wanted to watch, so we strapped him in the back, near the front of the cargo compartment. We hit the route, dropped down, and started bombing along at 300' AGL. When we slowed and popped up for the drop, and the ramp and door opened, he passed out. Hyperventilated. We put him on 100% O2, he came around, realized he'd passed out, and started hyperventilating again! Rinse and repeat twice more. We thought he was having a heart attack, and an ambulance met us - he was fine, back at work the next day - he described the feeling just as you did, numbness, light headed, etc. Not too unlike some folk's hypoxia symptoms.

It's a weird, new environment, and you're smart enough to know your life is in a stranger's hands - you can't land the thing (yet), or don't think you can, anyway. If you weren't a little pumped, it would be more odd. So you were just a little too pumped! Control your breathing, slow and steady, be aware of it. You'll get past it. . .
 
You got so excited. You forgot to control your breathing,
 
I have never passed out before, but I was definitely going to pass out if the plane kept going a little longer. And when I look back on it, I did probably forget to breathe properly because I had an adrenaline rush trying to keep the aircraft leveled! I'm also thinking some air con could have helped me out too because I was sweating in the end.
 
Ortiz94 said:
I have never passed out before, but I was definitely going to pass out if the plane kept going a little longer. And when I look back on it, I did probably forget to breathe properly because I had an adrenaline rush trying to keep the aircraft leveled! I'm also thinking some air con could have helped me out too because I was sweating in the end.
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If it happens again the old trick of breathing into/from a paper bag works because it restores CO2 levels in the blood - it fixes the blood chemistry problem.
 
I thought there isn't suppose to be carbon monoxide in the cockpit? My instructor felt fine so I want to assume it was just me from not breathing properly. But I was definitely going to pass out from light headedness/numbness. Should I be cautious before booking another lesson with my instructor? I also do want to emphasize that opening the door and getting fresh air helped with starting my recovery but my head didnt fully go back to normal until 10 minutes after exiting the plane.
 
Sinistar said:
Now there's a perfect example a seasoned pilot giving practical advice based on actual experience :)
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If it were the kid in your avatar making the OP, I'd suggest their headset was too tight. ;)
 
Clark1961 said:
If it happens again the old trick of breathing into/from a paper bag works because it restores CO2 levels in the blood - it fixes the blood chemistry problem.
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No No No...never do this. You have a build-up of CO2 and this will increase it even more. Slow deep breaths is the answer here.
 
@Ortiz94 - being more serious now (I was trying to get your mind off of it BTW).

There should be no Carbon Monoxide in the cockpit beyond normal atmospheric amounts and maybe just a bit more due to air flows through the plane. When we start our 182 and taxi with the window open I read between 0...6ppm. When I do the run-up in the summer with windows open if might go up to 15 or so. During flight, even in the winter with full heat vents open and all fresh air closed, I've never seen it read more than 2. I am quite sure a CO leak (from the exhaust) would have also affected your CFI.

Unless it was cold out, did you have the fresh air vents open? You know its okay to use them, even if the other guy might be cold. Your instructor will understand. And maybe take a drink of water periodically too.

I bet this doesn't even happen on your next flight :)
 
jallen0 said:
No No No...never do this. You have a build-up of CO2 and this will increase it even more. Slow deep breaths is the answer here.
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LOL. Hyperventilation results in O2 saturation of the blood and low CO2 levels. The low CO2 changes the blood pH resulting in Ca precipitation which in turn blocks nerve signals (numbness). Restore CO2 to restore the blood pH resulting Ca solution and restored nerve function.
 
jallen0 said:
No No No...never do this. You have a build-up of CO2 and this will increase it even more. Slow deep breaths is the answer here.
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Okay, wait a minute, are we confusing him now...isn't one of the recommended actions for hyperventilation...to breathe into a paper bag????

Or are you saying this wasn't hyperventilation?

Edit: Clark beat me to it...man I hate just being a private pilot :(
 
jallen0 said:
No No No...never do this. You have a build-up of CO2 and this will increase it even more. Slow deep breaths is the answer here.
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Incorrect. Hyperventilation results in a deficit of CO2, not a build-up. You need to increase it to get your metabolic rate back in sync, because your body thinks it does not need to breathe, but it does. The CO2 is the cue that tells your body to breathe. This is also why rescue breathing is so useful. Breathing CO2 into the victim helps stimulate the breathe reflex to get them going again.

Hyperventilation is a condition in which you start to breathe very fast. Healthy breathing occurs with a healthy balance between breathing in oxygen and breathing out carbon dioxide. You upset this balance when you hyperventilate by exhaling more than you inhale. This causes a rapid reduction in carbon dioxide in the body.
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https://www.healthline.com/symptom/hyperventilation

Pretty sure this is even a question on the PPL written test.
 
Let me add some peer-reviewed research for you to read. Breathing into a paper bag will increase your CO2 buildup, not decrease it. Increasing your CO2 decreases perfusion, which means your body is starved for ozygen. You need to remove the excess CO2, not increase it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2499228
 
jallen0 said:
Let me add some peer-reviewed research for you to read. Breathing into a paper bag will increase your CO2 buildup, not decrease it. Increasing your CO2 decreases perfusion, which means your body is starved for ozygen. You need to remove the excess CO2, not increase it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2499228
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If I read this correctly, that abstract (1989) was because a few people (3) with low O2 (opposite of Hyperventilation) and heart disease incorrectly used this technique. I would think if the paper bag for hyperventilation was discovered to be deadly back in 1989 there would have been changes made. Am I missing something here?
 
jallen0 said:
Let me add some peer-reviewed research for you to read. Breathing into a paper bag will increase your CO2 buildup, not decrease it. Increasing your CO2 decreases perfusion, which means your body is starved for ozygen. You need to remove the excess CO2, not increase it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2499228
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Better read it yourself. Hyperventilation is not hypoxia. Hyperventilation results in low CO2. Hypoxia is low O2. Nobody has suggested the OP suffered hypoxia.
 
We are talking about using a paper bag to "reset" your blood chemistry. That is what is wrong. Also while the research was about those with hypoxia the CO2 increased results stand alone as a result of the paper bag inhalation.
 
jallen0 said:
We are talking about using a paper bag to "reset" your blood chemistry. That is what is wrong. Also while the research was about those with hypoxia the CO2 increased results stand alone as a result of the paper bag inhalation.
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Yes, increasing CO2 is a good thing when treating hyperventilation since the blood level of CO2 has been depressed. Thank you for providing documentation that breathing in a paper bag produces the desired effect.
 
Clark1961 said:
Yes, increasing CO2 is a good thing when treating hyperventilation since the blood level of CO2 has been depressed. Thank you for providing documentation that breathing in a paper bag produces the desired effect.
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It's not the CO2 that's the treatment. The CO2 is the side effect that acts on the baro and chemo receptors and can and will cause more problems in the near short term. Slowing and deepening your breathing is the answer for solving the issue.
 
jallen0 said:
Let me add some peer-reviewed research for you to read. Breathing into a paper bag will increase your CO2 buildup, not decrease it. Increasing your CO2 decreases perfusion, which means your body is starved for ozygen. You need to remove the excess CO2, not increase it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2499228
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Clark1961 said:
Better read it yourself. Hyperventilation is not hypoxia. Hyperventilation results in low CO2. Hypoxia is low O2. Nobody has suggested the OP suffered hypoxia.
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Sinistar said:
If I read this correctly, that abstract (1989) was because a few people (3) with low O2 (opposite of Hyperventilation) and heart disease incorrectly used this technique. I would think if the paper bag for hyperventilation was discovered to be deadly back in 1989 there would have been changes made. Am I missing something here?
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jallen0 - Clark and Sinistar are correct. What this study says is that the brown bag can be bad for hypoxemic individuals (i.e.,hypoxia) who have been mis-diagnosed. This makes total sense in that hypoxia and hyperventilation share many symptoms. But, I don't think anyone here is saying the OP was hypoxic.
 
@jallen0 - If the OP was having a heart attack (which he was not) I don't think he'd be here posting. And if he had Asthma, he'd probably of told us or been on here earlier asking about the Medical form, special issuances, etc.

And isn't it difficult "Slowing and deepening your breathing" during an actual episode and thus going for more effective and rather elegant solution - the paper bag.
 
Guys, forgot about he heart attack aspect of the research and look at the effects of breathing into a brown paper bag. That information is the result of breathing into the paper bag, not the result of the heart problems. That's why I added the pop culture article to help better explain it. Hyperventilation creates hypoxia because of how the oxygen binds to the hemoglobin tighter and also reduces the ceberal blood flow. Honestly I could go in deeper but I think the main point I was making is getting lost.

Let me add, I am relatively new here and take most everything you guys say about flying as fact, or close to it as I am very much learning. My day job when not reading the forums is as an emergency nurse and critical care flight nurse. For what that is worth don't breath into a paper bag if you are hyperventilating, just take slow deep breaths.
 
jallen0 said:
Let me add some peer-reviewed research for you to read. Breathing into a paper bag will increase your CO2 buildup, not decrease it. Increasing your CO2 decreases perfusion, which means your body is starved for ozygen. You need to remove the excess CO2, not increase it. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2499228
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I did not really disagree with you that a paper bag is not needed. Slow breathing will do the trick.

Removed. I was wrong, you were correct. My mistake
 
jallen0 said:
Guys, forgot about he heart attack aspect of the research and look at the effects of breathing into a brown paper bag. That information is the result of breathing into the paper bag, not the result of the heart problems. That's why I added the pop culture article to help better explain it. Hyperventilation creates hypoxia because of how the oxygen binds to the hemoglobin tighter and also reduces the ceberal blood flow. Honestly I could go in deeper but I think the main point I was making is getting lost.

Let me add, I am relatively new here and take most everything you guys say about flying as fact, or close to it as I am very much learning. My day job when not reading the forums is as an emergency nurse and critical care flight nurse. For what that is worth don't breath into a paper bag if you are hyperventilating, just take slow deep breaths.
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If you are a nurse you probably shouldn’t have gone down the path of saying hyperventilation results in high CO2 levels when in fact the opposite is true. Things like that tend to destroy credibility.

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003071.htm

Sorry that I don’t have a pop culture reference for you so you could understand it.
 
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drjcustis said:
As an ER physician, I enjoy reading POA, a bunch of pilots arguing about how to fly a plane. What’s better is reading their medical advice!
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Have to agree with you here. OP could have a medical condition heretofore unseen, airplane could have a CO leak, and then there’s also hyperventilation, and probably half a dozen other possibilities...

OP... for a cheap start to figuring it out, buy a cheap O2 sensor for your finger and put it on during the next flight. Even that sucks, but it’s better than medical advice from the Internet.

Note: If you go to your doc and ask about it, be forewarned that any insurance codes filed that smell like “issues with consciousness” are quite likely to become a red flag later (once you report it) to Aeromedical, so some reasonable caution is in order here to avoid getting a total crap diagnosis coded into your insurance company’s database.

Once a crap diagnosis is in there, jumping through Aeromedical’s hoops to prove it untrue is a nightmare.

But you probably want to know if you have some sort of real medical issue like anemia or similar... take care of your health first, but guard against stupidity being typed into computers by well-meaning medical clerks who just want to get the Doc paid...
 
PaulS said:
Great, even the ER doctor doesn't know who is right.
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Doesn’t surprise me about the medical profession. They are almost as bad as engineers. At least doctors treat one victim at a time. Engineers can screw up an entire city if ya give them a chance...

...yes, I r an injunear.
 
denverpilot said:
Have to agree with you here. OP could have a medical condition heretofore unseen, airplane could have a CO leak, and then there’s also hyperventilation, and probably half a dozen other possibilities...

OP... for a cheap start to figuring it out, buy a cheap O2 sensor for your finger and put it on during the next flight. Even that sucks, but it’s better than medical advice from the Internet.

Note: If you go to your doc and ask about it, be forewarned that any insurance codes filed that smell like “issues with consciousness” are quite likely to become a red flag later (once you report it) to Aeromedical, so some reasonable caution is in order here to avoid getting a total crap diagnosis coded into your insurance company’s database.

Once a crap diagnosis is in there, jumping through Aeromedical’s hoops to prove it untrue is a nightmare.

But you probably want to know if you have some sort of real medical issue like anemia or similar... take care of your health first, but guard against stupidity being typed into computers by well-meaning medical clerks who just want to get the Doc paid...
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There’s also the old adage about hearing hoof beats...

Sure, if you go to the ER or discuss it with a doctor they will go down the list. From what I’ve seen the zebra conditions get eliminated rather quickly. OTOH, a primary care physician and preventive care seems to be a good thing since stuff gets screened and you’ve got some history when ya go to the doc and say “I don’t feel so good...”
 
Clark1961 said:
There’s also the old adage about hearing hoof beats...

Sure, if you go to the ER or discuss it with a doctor they will go down the list. From what I’ve seen the zebra conditions get eliminated rather quickly. OTOH, a primary care physician and preventive care seems to be a good thing since stuff gets screened and you’ve got some history when ya go to the doc and say “I don’t feel so good...”
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History is good. I definitely wasn’t suggesting an ER visit for it.

We’ve had friends essentially pass out when visiting from Australia when we took them up Pikes Peak... :)

They were healthy, just not doing so well at 14,000 for a couple of hours.

Someone with some “on the edge” medical condition for O2 processing or transport in their blood or [insert list of stuff here] might find that a light aircraft ride up 2000-3000’ makes them feel “not so good”... is all I was sayin’.

It ain’t necessarily hyperventilation.
 
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