Blowing of steam.

[Dean]

Why is it that a $2.00 piece of metal cost $148.00 just because it goes on an airplane? I know there is a big liability for the manufacture, but you would think after making the same part for 40 years they would have all the bugs worked out. The part I am talking about is the 6" X 1/2" piece of metal that holds the window open on a 150/152. The part is still available from Cessna for $148.00 bucks and the spring is $4.52. My A&P has two sayings, #1,Bend over and smile. #2, You know, the happiest two days of your life are the day you buy your plane and the day you sell it. Thanks for letting me vent, I feel much better know, I think I'll go Flying.

 

[fgcason]

Why is it that a $2.00 piece of metal cost $148.00

OMG!!

I know of other stuff that can possibly justify the markup but NOT that specific piece of metal. Are they seriously talking just the metal piece by itself or all the stuff it attaches to also?

Two words (well, four words if you include 'bend over') come to mind: Aircraft Salvage

 

[Dean]

Yes, Just the piece of metal. After I picked the phone and my jaw off the floor, I re-explained what I was wanting and was told that it was indeed the quoted price.

 

[fgcason]

Yes, Just the piece of metal. After I picked the phone and my jaw off the floor, I re-explained what I was wanting and was told that it was indeed the quoted price.

I'd have dropped the phone again.

Hey, you wanna go into business together? We could stamp out a huge crate full of those every day and sell them for $50 a pop.

 

[Carol]

Why is it that a $2.00 piece of metal cost $148.00 .....

This item http://www.knots2u.com/2430lug.htm is $139 from Knots2U. I am told that the same thing for a Ford product is around $7. So, $7 for the product and $132 for the supporting paperwork. It took me 5 minutes to install it and 5 minutes for my mechanic to inspect it and take care of the paperwork.

 

[sere]

Yes there is sure a lot of difference in prices sometimes. Lots of parts relate back to the auto industry especially with older aircraft. Sometime you can save if you have a AP/IA who is good at crafting replacement parts. Good luck.

 

[Tom-D]

Sometime you can save if you have a AP/IA who is good at crafting replacement parts

Good luck.

They won't be an A&P long if they get caught manufacturing aircraft parts with out PMA.

 

[Henning]

They won't be an A&P long if they get caught manufacturing aircraft parts with out PMA.

But it would be ok if the A&P mentored the Owner as the Owner made the part. There is a way to make that for much less than $148, but you have to own at least $60 worth of tools to make it properly. You can probably make a good precise copy of it for materials (unless you have access to scrap, you may have to buy $10 as a minimum order) and a few hours of your time to do the job right. I would probably cut it out using a Dremmel type tool unless I had access to a mill.

 

[Maverick]

I'd have dropped the phone again.

Hey, you wanna go into business together? We could stamp out a huge crate full of those every day and sell them for $50 a pop.

I wonder what it would cost you for PMA approval?

Jeannie

 

[Henning]

I wonder what it would cost you for PMA approval?

Jeannie

The PMA itself won't cost much. You need to know how to write a technical manual for procuring approved material, manufacturing the part, and more importantly how to quality control the parts, you also need approved engineering for the part. Then there comes product liability, although I don't think the actuaries would hit you too hard on this part.

 

[Richard]

They won't be an A&P long if they get caught manufacturing aircraft parts with out PMA.

That does not apply if the part is no longer manufactured or the part is still manufactured but the mfg will not sell the part to you.

 

[bbchien]

There is a great sickness in this country and it is foisted by, sorry to say this guys, LAWYERS, for whom it is their meal ticket. $150 for a $2.00 part seems entirely reasonable. After all, the lawyer has to support his Saeta jet. Here in Illinois I'm watching the 100 member (94 lawyers) general assembly derail tort reform, this weekend. It's shameful.

Despite all the other idiocies foisted by the Republicans, their awareness and action on this problem is why I have to support them (blech).

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

The thing about owner-mfg parts that makes me a little queasy is......it is possible that an airplane you buy from such owners down the road could possibly contain dozens, even hundreds of such parts after years or decades of doing this.
No prebuy - in fact - no annual can possibly catch all such parts in my hypothetical scenario. It is not a problem now, but - if prices get impossible and owners get imaginative, it may be. Makers of decorative parts may start thinking they can get away with making structural parts. Soon we have landing gear fabricated of hardware-store steel tubing or aileron cable using bicycle brake cables!
Personally I think that regulation is being misinterpreted (it wasn't intended for that use?) and enough problems resulting from it, we will see it disappear.

 

[Richard]

The thing about owner-mfg parts that makes me a little queasy is......it is possible that an airplane you buy from such owners down the road could possibly contain dozens, even hundreds of such parts after years or decades of doing this.
No prebuy - in fact - no annual can possibly catch all such parts in my hypothetical scenario. It is not a problem now, but - if prices get impossible and owners get imaginative, it may be. Makers of decorative parts may start thinking they can get away with making structural parts. Soon we have landing gear fabricated of hardware-store steel tubing or aileron cable using bicycle brake cables!
Personally I think that regulation is being misinterpreted (it wasn't intended for that use?) and enough problems resulting from it, we will see it disappear.

Dave, it already is a problem. Not only that but I fear it is more widespread than you can imagine.

Also, you point out a potential problem which is the number one reason why I wouldn't buy someone's homebuilt. But what if all parts and systems are found to be A-OK? There still could be a problem a la the John Denver accident.

 

[AdamZ]

There is a great sickness in this country and it is foisted by, sorry to say this guys, LAWYERS, for whom it is their meal ticket. $150 for a $2.00 part seems entirely reasonable. After all, the lawyer has to support his Saeta jet. Here in Illinois I'm watching the 100 member (94 lawyers) general assembly derail tort reform, this weekend. It's shameful.

Despite all the other idoicies foisted by the Republicans, their awareness and action on this problem is why I have to support them (blech).

I must be looking in the wrong hanger because I can't find any jet there or any airplane for that matter.

Adam Z the lawyer without a jet.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Bruce my interpretation is that the tort lawyers are simply using a system the way it was designed to be used. (I don't like it one bit either, but bear with me..) What I mean is I can't give the lawyers the blame. We have a capitalist (money-driven) society and the lawyers see a (completely lawful) opportunity to remove someone's money and get it for themselves - who would resist that? Morals? Ethics? That is not going to stop 80% of people in this country if the law says its right.

Now if you are going to argue, 'Well its the attorneys that made the damned rules in the first place", no one can disagree.
But most attorneys I have met are like you and I, they are out there helping people get through their lives each day; only a few lawyers benefit from these insane judgements/awards and deserve anyone's scorn.

Conclusion: Lets not group all attorneys in the bad-guy crowd.


So to fix the problem, like you said, its politics and thus almost without hope.

 

[corjulo]

Cessna charges $150 for a $2 part because THEY CAN! Change FAA rules on after-market parts and watch theirs price drop. At least that's what they guys at my local EAA tell me

 

[Tom-D]

That does not apply if the part is no longer manufactured or the part is still manufactured but the mfg will not sell the part to you.

Where did you learn that?

Please quote the reference.

Because I would love to manufacture a few engine parts for my Warner or a 440 Ranger.

or better yet, would you manufacture a couple main wing spars for a F-24, you could get $10k each.

 

[Tom-D]

Cessna charges $150 for a $2 part because THEY CAN! Change FAA rules on after-market parts and watch theirs price drop. At least that's what they guys at my local EAA tell me

When you consider that Cessna did the engineering, got it approved by the FAA, and then suffered through lawuits, why would you think they wouldn't pass the costs to you?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Cessna did the engineering, got it approved by the FAA, and then suffered through lawuits

Tom, you have not mentioned that pricing of almost any item in this country is also driven by available competition.
>

>

>

 

[Richard]

Where did you learn that?

Please quote the reference.

Because I would love to manufacture a few engine parts for my Warner or a 440 Ranger.

or better yet, would you manufacture a couple main wing spars for a F-24, you could get $10k each.

I'll check up on that but my understanding is if the part is no longer available builder may manufacture the part but in doing so he must be able to show it conforms to the original specification. I'll see what I can dig up.

 

[Richard]

Tom, you have not mentioned that pricing of almost any item in this country is also driven by available competition.
>

>

>

You mean like in the automotive world the owner has the option to go outside of OEM parts but in aviation that is not the case? If that is the case--hey, it's capitalism although each mfg has a monopoly on supplying parts for their line of aircraft.

 

[sere]

They won't be an A&P long if they get caught manufacturing aircraft parts with out PMA.

Not quite true. A & P and IA's all the time make repairs. Example as long as they use some of the original material they can repair an item. Like an engine frame. You have some bent or rusted tubes. They cut out the bad and replace with new. I have seen lots and lots of parts rebuilt that way. If they were not allowed to do that then lots of our older planes would never see the sky again.

 

[RogerT]

Why is it that a $2.00 piece of metal cost $148.00 QUOTE]

This is why I'm very seriously considering selling my Warrior and buying
something Experimental that fits under Sport Pilot. Anybody wanna buy
a Warrior? It's gotten to the point where it just isn't worth it to try to
keep a certificated aircraft going.

RT

 

[bbchien]

I must be looking in the wrong hanger because I can't find any jet there or any airplane for that matter.

Adam Z the lawyer without a jet.

Well, my apologies, Adam. But there are an awful lot of luxury cars parked outside the Madison County Courthouse. And, the tallest building in my downtown belongs, granite sidewalks and all, to the #2 Ambulance chaser in the city.

The Television is plastered with $10,000 ads from his media buyer. His wife invites mine over to see her "gold" collection. He drives the Bentley. He uses Frac jets. That's how it is in 2005. I keep telling the kids to NOT do Medicine. Manufacturers simply RUN to Mexico. I think there's a connection.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Over the years, several times folks have mentioned that a part from the automotive store was the same and cheaper. I've stayed with the approved part, but sometimes really shook my head. There are some fairly banal things that don't appear to have any special trait because they're in the plane. There are other parts that are certainly critical. Seems we should be able to use things that don't have special application in an aircraft. It's all a matter of perspective.

Talked to a guy that manufacturers racing engines for cars. He rebuilt his own engines on a Baron. Said he couldn't believe how sloppy the manufactured engine was and how much they were getting for it. But then, he hasn't had families sue him after the engine stopped on a car.

There is very limited production of some parts. Any time someone can set their own price without comptition, it's gonna get expensive. As our GA fleet ages, this is certainly more of an issue. And making GA reasonably affordable is becoming more difficult because of issues like this and other things like access fees, cities requiring crazy things to lease a hanger, no through-the-fence operations, etc.

Best,

Dave

 

[Henning]

The thing about owner-mfg parts that makes me a little queasy is......it is possible that an airplane you buy from such owners down the road could possibly contain dozens, even hundreds of such parts after years or decades of doing this.

You say that like it's a bad thing. I have different experience with it. I have had owners bring me manufactured parts superior to factory. When I build a part for a plane of mine, I make sure to build a superior part, and most owners do the same thing. It's our rear ends in the plane at the end of the day, you think we wanna fly around in junk?

 

[Henning]

I'd have dropped the phone again.

Hey, you wanna go into business together? We could stamp out a huge crate full of those every day and sell them for $50 a pop.

Well, you kinda just hit upon one of the problems. It's gonna take 50 years to sell that big crate of 150 window struts. Economics of scale has a high influence on the cost of aircraft parts. You just don't sell that many that it's worth doing big production runs, and if you only order 1000, you have set up and tooling costs. Plus you have to package and warehouse the parts as well as distribute them to dealers or ship direct to customers. This means you need warehouses and shipping departments....

I'm not saying $148 isn't too much, it's way more than I would pay, but I'll bet for Cessna to handle that part, at $148 Retail price to the consumer, Cessna isn't making a killing on it if you factor everything in. My guess is that they'll realize $15 on it. Personally, I'd go to the clip kit that holds the winow to the bottom of the wing, I love those on a Cessna. Real Redneck Flying, with your elbow sticking out the window. Anyway, they're great for photography.

 

[AdamZ]

Well, my apologies, Adam. But there are an awful lot of luxury cars parked outside the Madison County Courthouse. And, the tallest building in my downtown belongs, granite sidewalks and all, to the #2 Ambulance chaser in the city.

There are folks in every profession like that. I know of a bunch of docs who owned all the outpatient surgi centers in my area and made mucho $$$ selling them to the hospital. They drive the top of the line mercedes have the beach house, mountain house etc.

The Television is plastered with $10,000 ads from his media buyer. His wife invites mine over to see her "gold" collection. He drives the Bentley. He uses Frac jets. That's how it is in 2005.

Yes we have that here to but I only see the adds if I'm, home sick because they always run on day time T.V. On the other hand I also see the glitzy ads for the Plastic docs to boost up breasts, remove spider veins, and make you look like Jessica Simpson or Tom Cruise. The lasik guys advertise big time. They have even set up financing companies so you can buy your surgery on credit.

I keep telling the kids to NOT do Medicine. Manufacturers simply RUN to Mexico. I think there's a connection.

My dad who is a retired family doc says medicine ain't what it used to be. {He is right, he started practicing in the "fee for service days"" do you remember them} we have the lawsuit talk now and then but he thinks its mostly the health insurance companies that have changed things and we could have five entire threads on that subject. Ironically Bruce I tell my daughter NOT to go into law. Some where out there there has to be a profession or business we can direct our kids to. If you figure it out let me know.

 

[Everskyward]

Over the years, several times folks have mentioned that a part from the automotive store was the same and cheaper.

Years ago I was stranded at a small town airport with a bad voltage regulator in a Cessna 206. The mechanic said that he could have one FedExed in for the next day or I could go to the Ford dealer, buy one, and put it in myself since it was the same thing. He said that he wouldn't do it but I could use his tools.

I said thanks but no thanks for various reasons but I imagine there are a number of people who would have taken him up on his offer.

 

[Henning]

This item http://www.knots2u.com/2430lug.htm is $139 from Knots2U. I am told that the same thing for a Ford product is around $7. So, $7 for the product and $132 for the supporting paperwork. It took me 5 minutes to install it and 5 minutes for my mechanic to inspect it and take care of the paperwork.

That's not exactly accurate. You will get the gas strut for $7. You will not find those mounts under production anywhere, someone has to make them, and I'll bet at the production scale they are done at, they are made by hand (a skilled hand will be able to make it in under 5 minutes in a proper shop). You could have looked at an existing one and made the same thing yourself and had it installed on a field approval. It would have cost you $30 in materials and about 2 hrs of your time (4.5 if you want it to look really good, lotsa sanding and polishing time) and whatever you have to spend on the tools to make it if you don't have access to them already. Then there is the time you'll pay the mechanic to get the paperwork done.

BTW, You don't pay $139 for the parts, you pay $139 for the parts and convenience of having this nice modified better performing part, installed, functioning and legal, 10 minutes after you got to the plane with it. BTW, $139 is not an unfair price for what you get there.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Some where out there there has to be a profession or business we can direct our kids to. If you figure it out let me know.

I plan to tell mine to do something they like doing, so long as they won't starve in the the process. Life's too short to go through it hating your job. And there's nothing wrong with changing your mind and trying something new if your first choice doesn't work out like you though it would.

Jeff

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Yes there are. Several parts on my plane have the same factory part number as the one at NAPA Auto Parts down the street. I know several folks that work on their own plane that have made that point and purchased that part at the auto store.

As the plane gets more sophistocated, more high performance, there is less in common. But, there are still things like you just brought up, where the aircraft system is still functioning in the same manner as an auto. Problem is, one doesn't normally know what might be different in the auto part. If you're knowledgeable enough to know there is no difference at all, if it's still not a certified part, you have to question if it could cause much more trouble later than paying the extra amount now.

Still, there is some crazyness. Friend paid Piper a small forture to replace a seat bracket that could easily have been fabricated. Many shops just 'replace parts'. We're losing a lot of the craftsmen that could fabricate.

Best,

Dave

 

[Henning]

Years ago I was stranded at a small town airport with a bad voltage regulator in a Cessna 206. The mechanic said that he could have one FedExed in for the next day or I could go to the Ford dealer, buy one, and put it in myself since it was the same thing. He said that he wouldn't do it but I could use his tools.

I said thanks but no thanks for various reasons but I imagine there are a number of people who would have taken him up on his offer.

Yep, I would have. You really have to use some common sense in these things. You really have to look at the part and what it does. Cessna, Lycoming... They don't manufacture alternators and voltage regulators, these are outsourced parts. So you have to ask yourself "Is there anything special there has to be about this part for it to go on an airplane?" whenever you are faced with a parts dillema. There is also the "Will it be good to get me to KXXX where I can fix it better?" question. Somethings you don't compromise at all, but a voltage regulator isn't one of them.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I did. I know generalizing is bad, but consider that these parts being made are done so in many cases by someone who is trying to save a buck. That is the only requirement to participate. You don't have to understand or study materials spec, load analyses, nuttin'! Is that conducive to building a quality part?

Hey, it's possible someone's entire certified airplane could be made up of home-made parts over time with this loophole, isn't it?!

.
.
.

 

[Everskyward]

Problem is, one doesn't normally know what might be different in the auto part. If you're knowledgeable enough to know there is no difference at all, if it's still not a certified part, you have to question if it could cause much more trouble later than paying the extra amount now.

That's the big problem, isn't it? I'm not terribly mechanically inclined and was even less so when this occurred. My clue was that the mechanic would not stick out his neck to install this unapproved part so why should I?

I guess I should also point out that this was not my airplane and the owner, who also was my employer, had no problem paying for the real part and putting us up overnight to wait for it. As he should.

When I said that some people would probably do this themselves I didn't expect two responses within a half hour!

 

[Henning]

I did. I know generalizing is bad, but consider that these parts being made are done so in many cases by someone who is trying to save a buck. That is the only requirement to participate. You don't have to understand or study materials spec, load analyses, nuttin'! Is that conducive to building a quality part?

Hey, it's possible someone's entire certified airplane could be made up of home-made parts over time with this loophole, isn't it?!

While all that is potentially true, it is not in my experience accurate. Most of the people trying to save a buck get salvage yard parts and straighten them. Most of the people who manufacture their own parts do so because the part isn't available, or they want to build a better part so they don't have to deal with the problem they are dealing with again.

BTW, that rebuilt with made parts plane may end up being a better plane. Of what I have seen, the people who build their own parts are pretty much a smart and talented crowd. Often times the parts far exceed factory quality. Remember, the factory builds a part as cheap and simply as it can get away with, machined parts are done with a minimum of cuts, or better yet replaced with a stamped part. If it is your plane and you have access to machines, what is the difference if you spend an extra hour or two on your one or two parts to make them better.

 

[Tom-D]

While all that is potentially true, it is not in my experience accurate. Most of the people trying to save a buck get salvage yard parts and straighten them. Most of the people who manufacture their own parts do so because the part isn't available, or they want to build a better part so they don't have to deal with the problem they are dealing with again.

BTW, that rebuilt with made parts plane may end up being a better plane. Of what I have seen, the people who build their own parts are pretty much a smart and talented crowd. Often times the parts far exceed factory quality. Remember, the factory builds a part as cheap and simply as it can get away with, machined parts are done with a minimum of cuts, or better yet replaced with a stamped part. If it is your plane and you have access to machines, what is the difference if you spend an extra hour or two on your one or two parts to make them better.

Your friends need to gain a better understanding of :

§21.303 Replacement and modification parts.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

That's the big problem, isn't it? I'm not terribly mechanically inclined and was even less so when this occurred. My clue was that the mechanic would not stick out his neck to install this unapproved part so why should I?

I guess I should also point out that this was not my airplane and the owner, who also was my employer, had no problem paying for the real part and putting us up overnight to wait for it. As he should.

When I said that some people would probably do this themselves I didn't expect two responses within a half hour!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yours seems like a pretty simple decision; get the proper part and approval. Not your plane--pretty much means it's not your decision unless very unusual, emergency type circumstances. You have an owner that's willing and able to do the right thing.

I wouldn't criticize someone that used the non-approved part if they knew what they were doing; it wasn't flight critical and there wasn't much in the way of an alternative. In the case where there is a mechanic available, unless one just has no confidence in their abilities, and he wouldn't put the part in; I wouldn't either. Course, I'm not a mechanic and have moderate abilities in that area. Like so many things in life, if everything works fine, no one seems to care. If the part caused a fire in the cockpit or some other difficulty, every second guesser in the world get a shot at your decision. If a non-standard part was installed, certainly it should be inspected and approved when you get home or to a place with reasonable maintenance facilities.

You might benefit from reviewing what maintenance a non-licensed person can legally perform. Tire, oil, small routine things. A voltage regulator without finding out why the old one failed would probably not qualify. I've replaced lights, filled tires, repaired seats, spark plugs, oil and did secure a leaky quick drain valve. Otherwise, I've had the proper person either inspect or complete the repair.

Best,

Dave

 

[Henning]

Your friends need to gain a better understanding of :

§21.303 Replacement and modification parts.

Actually, you may want to read this http://www.faa.gov/avr/afs/300/memo.doc

It sheds an interesting light on the rule. It appears that the sticker is on "for sale", as in selling parts. If a part is produced "for use" as in a one off application, there is much more leeway. The mechanic or any machine shop may produce the part even if there is just a minimal involvement by the owner as spelled out in answered questions by the Assistant Chief Councel.