Bloody hell.

DaleB

DaleB

Final Approach
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DaleB
When I was picking out a flight school, I had two within a reasonable driving distance (sorry, Jesse). One was 10 minutes away, non-towered field (KMLE). The other was a half hour drive across town, but they fly out of a Class C and offered block rates. So I figured I'd get plenty of radio, taxi & ATC training right off the bat (which I have) and save a little to make up for the increased drive time. Up until yesterday it was working OK, although I think it would be fair to say that the Cherokees they fly have had more than their share of maintenance issues.

So yesterday I had a 9 AM flight scheduled. I show up a few minutes early... no CFI. My regular guy has been out of town for a couple of weeks so I had been flying with another one, which was OK, but I don't like switching instructors. Texted my regular guy -- he's not feeling well, no flying. Gee, thanks for letting me know before I drove 20 miles to get there. The other CFI has a student, so I'm stuck.

Now for the fantastic news... the flight school, to whom I just wrote a nice fat check to pre-pay for a block of hours, is closing. Today. Too bad, so sad. Some of the staff is opening a new school on Monday, same aircraft, different field with its 2400 x 40' runway, yay. And they'll honor the hours I've pre-paid. Trouble is, if I want to fly out of a non-towered field, I can do that a heck of a lot closer to home than the half hour drive to get to this place.

Sigh... so now I get to fly off the hours I've already paid for with them, then switch to yet another school and yet another CFI to finish up -- or continue to drive an hour round trip every time I want to fly. Plus I have lessons scheduled for today, tomorrow AND Saturday... all of which I will not be able to do, which sets me back ANOTHER week.

I'm really ticked off about this. Really. It's difficult to express how much. Crap.

:mad2:
 
Flight school closing and you're still going to be credited for the hours you pre-purchased?

You, sir, have won the lottery. I can't tell you how many people have plopped down 10's of thousands of dollars (like over 40K) to have the school go under and they're just out of luck...with a huge loan to pay...with no training...and no way to get more money...totally screwed.

I'd count your blessings and count yourself as VERY fortunate. It could have gone WAY worse for you...
 
You might be able to file suit to get your funds back, accepting them and closing the next day seems fraudulent. However, the new guys honoring your commitment is really nice, they are under no obligation to do so. From the sounds of it you prepaid to get the better rate, which it sounds like you're getting. I've been driving an hour round trip to my airport for years, so it doesn't sound so bad to me. I hope it all works out in the end.
 
Captain said:
Flight school closing and you're still going to be credited for the hours you pre-purchased?

You, sir, have won the lottery. I can't tell you how many people have plopped down 10's of thousands of dollars (like over 40K) to have the school go under and they're just out of luck...with a huge loan to pay...with no training...and no way to get more money...totally screwed.

I'd count your blessings and count yourself as VERY fortunate. It could have gone WAY worse for you...
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Have to say I agree with Captain on this. Welcome to aviation, where the runway is littered with the carcassas of aviation schools that have crashed and burned the students.
 
defintely could have been worse but still a real bummer.
 
Captain said:
It could have gone WAY worse for you...
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It could have... in this case it seems like the same people, same aircraft, they even kept the same Flight Schedule Pro account and just changed the name. Seems like everyone except the two owners are just packing up the whole operation and moving to a new field... where I'll at least get plenty of short-field takeoffs and landing practice.

What really torques me right now is, it yet again will be more than a week between flights. This is getting really old.
 
DaleB said:
Now for the fantastic news... the flight school, to whom I just wrote a nice fat check to pre-pay for a block of hours, is closing. Today. Too bad, so sad. Some of the staff is opening a new school on Monday, same aircraft, different field with its 2400 x 40' runway, yay. And they'll honor the hours I've pre-paid. Trouble is, if I want to fly out of a non-towered field, I can do that a heck of a lot closer to home than the half hour drive to get to this place.

Sigh... so now I get to fly off the hours I've already paid for with them, then switch to yet another school and yet another CFI to finish up -- or continue to drive an hour round trip every time I want to fly. Plus I have lessons scheduled for today, tomorrow AND Saturday... all of which I will not be able to do, which sets me back ANOTHER week.

I'm really ticked off about this. Really. It's difficult to express how much. Crap.

:mad2:
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Wow. I know you are ticked about the school closing but that is pretty sweet that you can fly off the hours. Make sure you use them up ASAP before they change their minds!
 
alfadog said:
Wow. I know you are ticked about the school closing but that is pretty sweet that you can fly off the hours. Make sure you use them up ASAP before they change their minds!
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This.

I can see the 'new ownership' not getting the money from the defunct guys and telling you, 'sorry, the money never showed up.'

fly baby fly. burn those hours while you can. I can't tell you how nervous I am for you.
 
Fortunately it's not a whole ton of money... by the time you get instructor time in there, probably 5 hours tops. The money is one thing, but the MASSIVE PITA is another one altogether. And wasting three days of what looks to be perfect flying weather. I may go down tho the local place and get a head start.
 
Did you buy dry or wet? If wet, I would take the airplane next weekend and burn off all the hours and be done with them. Dry, you could prolly space out over a month safely. My guess.
 
DaleB said:
Fortunately it's not a whole ton of money... by the time you get instructor time in there, probably 5 hours tops. The money is one thing, but the MASSIVE PITA is another one altogether. And wasting three days of what looks to be perfect flying weather. I may go down tho the local place and get a head start.
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Do you solo? Solo cross-country?
 
Kelvin said:
I would fly NOW...
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Yeah, so would I... if there were a flight school and a CFI to fly with. They're not "open" until next week. I'm not signed off to solo yet, so I'm stuck until they start flying. I'm going to try to get hold of the new people and see if I can get some time in over the next couple of days. If I can burn off every dime before Monday I'll be a happy camper. And I should be able to get signed off to solo by then, too... which of course won't buy me much at the next place, I'm sure.
 
It makes me glad the flight scools at my airport don't require prepayment.
 
DaleB said:
The other was a half hour drive across town, but they fly out of a Class C and offered block rates. So I figured I'd get plenty of radio, taxi & ATC training right off the bat (which I have) and save a little to make up for the increased drive time.
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This was your first mistake. You will not save money using a flight school at a Class C airport. You will get lots of ATC experience early on, but you will burn up far more time with the engine running on the ground than you will at a non-towered field. Not worth it. Master the basics of flying at the non-towered field and then start flying to the Class C to build the ATC skills.
 
DaleB said:
Yeah, so would I... if there were a flight school and a CFI to fly with. They're not "open" until next week. I'm not signed off to solo yet, so I'm stuck until they start flying. I'm going to try to get hold of the new people and see if I can get some time in over the next couple of days. If I can burn off every dime before Monday I'll be a happy camper. And I should be able to get signed off to solo by then, too... which of course won't buy me much at the next place, I'm sure.
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Right, you will have to be checked out again to solo but, if your CFI was competent, it should be less than one hour to get you solo again.

I assume this was wet time? If so, go ahead and use it up. They might rethink their offer once they start buying your fuel. They might also rethink if they find out they are losing you as a student.
 
DaleB said:
Fortunately it's not a whole ton of money... by the time you get instructor time in there, probably 5 hours tops. The money is one thing, but the MASSIVE PITA is another one altogether. And wasting three days of what looks to be perfect flying weather. I may go down tho the local place and get a head start.
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Well, if it's only 5 hours worth then you're in a much better spot. I'd look at that money as gone and if you get to fly them then that's a bonus.

Either way take the advice of flying out of the non-towered field. Class C airspace is no place to get your private. You're going to spend a ton of time on the ground waiting behind other planes just to take off.

Now, all that time counts toward your ticket...but wouldn't you rather spend that time in the air?
 
Jf1450 said:
From some of the replies, the fact that as a society this has become accepted and we say "oh we'll" is truly a sad state of affairs.
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That a company has gone out of business and there is some collateral damage? Don't see how that is anything but normal for a free enterprise system.
 
I don't think anyone has said, 'oh well'.

It's a freaking outrage that it happens (flight schools closing AND taking students money with them) but it does happen. I do not know the fix. Bankruptcy law changes?
 
Jf1450 said:
From some of the replies, the fact that as a society this has become accepted and we say "oh we'll" is truly a sad state of affairs.
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I don't think folks here are saying..'oh well'. It does suck....but people here are pointing out that it could be a heck of a lot worse.
 
Fearless Tower said:
This was your first mistake. You will not save money using a flight school at a Class C airport. You will get lots of ATC experience early on, but you will burn up far more time with the engine running on the ground than you will at a non-towered field. Not worth it. Master the basics of flying at the non-towered field and then start flying to the Class C to build the ATC skills.
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+1 learning to fly in controlled airspace = big waste of time and money.

I basically taught myself how to fly instruments while my instructor spend the whole time either talking to Orlando ATC answering traffic calls or just sitting there quietly so as not to miss a call from ATC....
 
Fearless Tower said:
This was your first mistake. You will not save money using a flight school at a Class C airport. You will get lots of ATC experience early on, but you will burn up far more time with the engine running on the ground than you will at a non-towered field. Not worth it. Master the basics of flying at the non-towered field and then start flying to the Class C to build the ATC skills.
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I wasn't looking to save money, I wanted the radio & ATC experience. The cheaper block time, I figured, would about make it a wash... although it may have actually been a little cheaper. it's over $20/hr difference between the block rate where I was, and the regular rate where I'll probably have to finish up at KMLE. We typically didn't spend more than 5-10 minutes tops extra time getting clearance and taxiing, OMA isn't that huge. There was one time we had to wait 3 minutes for wake turbulence after an Airbus took off, but that was it... I don't think we ever had to wait more than a minute for anyone else. I know some places are really busy, and maybe OMA is at times, but it just hasn't been an issue there. I won't miss the drive, that's for sure.

I knew the ATC comms would be a challenge for me, and wanted to get comfortable with that up front. And did. So I'm OK with moving to a non-towered field now, it's just going to be a waste of time and money to have to break in a new CFI and all. Plus, like I said, I had hours scheduled every day from yesterday through Sat. and now don't know if any of that is happening.

So I'm going to see how quickly I can get as much flying as possible before they pull the plug... who knows? Maybe I'll like flying off of a short, narrow, rough strip. If it's not total crap, and if they are good on their word to honor the time I already paid for, I may stick with them despite the longer drive.
 
DaleB said:
I wasn't looking to save money, I wanted the radio & ATC experience. The cheaper block time, I figured, would about make it a wash... although it may have actually been a little cheaper. it's over $20/hr difference between the block rate where I was, and the regular rate where I'll probably have to finish up at KMLE. We typically didn't spend more than 5-10 minutes tops extra time getting clearance and taxiing, OMA isn't that huge. There was one time we had to wait 3 minutes for wake turbulence after an Airbus took off, but that was it... I don't think we ever had to wait more than a minute for anyone else. I know some places are really busy, and maybe OMA is at times, but it just hasn't been an issue there. I won't miss the drive, that's for sure.

I knew the ATC comms would be a challenge for me, and wanted to get comfortable with that up front. And did. So I'm OK with moving to a non-towered field now, it's just going to be a waste of time and money to have to break in a new CFI and all. Plus, like I said, I had hours scheduled every day from yesterday through Sat. and now don't know if any of that is happening.

So I'm going to see how quickly I can get as much flying as possible before they pull the plug... who knows? Maybe I'll like flying off of a short, narrow, rough strip. If it's not total crap, and if they are good on their word to honor the time I already paid for, I may stick with them despite the longer drive.
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I learned to fly out of PBI and I am happy I did. This was in the 1970's but it was still a fairly busy place. I quit back then but when I took up flying again recently, radio work was not an issue unlike many of my pilot buddies.
 
If I were you I'd consider looking at the other place you may go. Grass isn't always greener on the other side. I drive 30 minutes (one way) to *my* airport. I find it relaxing and soothing before goinig up in the air. Afterwards it's a nice way to unwind before having to be home to cook dinner. There is another airport about 10 minutes away but they charge a crap load more, there is only one runway strip and the schedule for the airplanes is weeks in advance! The CFI's at the closer airport are all time builders. *My* airport is a club and the CFI's do it for "fun" Go check out the other competition you may realize you're at the right airport for you. Or go call up Jesse and see how quick he can get you done too. :)
 
I know how you feel. Been there done that. Luckily I think I missed out on only a couple of hours, plus then it was wayyyyyy cheaper than it is now, but of course that was at least 15 years ago so I may be wrong on the numbers. I wouldn't even be a student right now if it weren't for the VA. I am using GI bill to fly so I have to go to a 141 school. The closest one for me is an hour and half. Granted the guys there are great and my CFI is top notch so it is worth it some aspects. All in all I would rather be doing it at what will be my home airport that is only 30 minutes round trip away.
 
Wow... 90 minutes each way? That's punishing. I'd love to do something where I take a week or so off work and just finish it in one shot. Sporty's, anyone? :)
 
Yeah it gets old quick. The only good thing about the drive is that at the end of the first leg I get into an airplane and fly for an hour or two. On the way home however the depression sets in, especially when I look at the cost of gas for the car.
 
DaleB said:
Wow... 90 minutes each way? That's punishing. I'd love to do something where I take a week or so off work and just finish it in one shot. Sporty's, anyone? :)
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Go see Jesse...
 
Oh geez, don't think about the cost! Think of the fun you had! Money - can't take it with you. :)
 
Jf1450 said:
From some of the replies, the fact that as a society this has become accepted and we say "oh we'll" is truly a sad state of affairs.
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How do you propose to stop it? Make it mandatory that everyone stay in business even if they're losing money or have family needs to attend to?

Fact is that it's been like this in aviation for years. There's not much money to be made from most schools - ask how much an instructor makes per hour. Heck, instructors building hours to go to the commuters.... it should tell you something that moving to a commuter is usually seen as increasing the take-home pay.
 
saracelica said:
Oh geez, don't think about the cost! Think of the fun you had! Money - can't take it with you. :)
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In reality it only crosses my mind every so often. In retrospect if I was really concerned about the money I would never have gotten into flying in the first place.
 
Do you generally like the instructors, availability of aircraft etc.

If yes, what is your problem exactly ? Fly off the 5 hrs, then continue with your training with them.

If no, fly off the 5 hours in 1 day just to get the hours in the book, then move on to a different school.

Dont prepay anything more for flight instruction than you are willing to walk away from. 5hrs in an account is a reasonable risk if you can get a discount, pre-paying an entire instrument course is not.
 
weilke said:
Do you generally like the instructors, availability of aircraft etc.
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Instructors, for the most part yes. Equipment, not so much.

weilke said:
If yes, what is your problem exactly ? Fly off the 5 hrs, then continue with your training with them.

If no, fly off the 5 hours in 1 day just to get the hours in the book, then move on to a different school.
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That's kind of the plan. The instructor (I think the new place will be down to 1 now) is fine. One plane has ended up inop due to nose gear problems 3 times out of the 5 or 6 times I've flown it; the last time we cooled out heels for an hour waiting on a ride back from the place we were doing TnG's. The other one I've flown has intermittent intercom issues -- a real drag during dual instruction where you have to talk to ATC. Unfortunately, the new place is going to be leasing the same aircraft as the old.

Right now my problem is, I had 5-6 hours of flying scheduled this week, and I'm not getting squat done. I'm also not getting pone calls returned. I don't care if it's a flight school or a flower shop, it's frustrating -- especially when you've already paid.
 
DaleB said:
Right now my problem is, I had 5-6 hours of flying scheduled this week, and I'm not getting squat done. I'm also not getting pone calls returned. I don't care if it's a flight school or a flower shop, it's frustrating -- especially when you've already paid.
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You may have noticed, that many 'flight school' tend to be put together from somewhat portable components:
- The planes are usually leased,
- the soda machine is provided by the coke bottler,
- the space is rented on a month-month basis
- the instructors are independent contractors.

The ratio of cash that flows through the business relative to assets of the business tends to be large (pretty much infinite as the school rarely owns more than a desk and a personal computer), there is very little incentive for a bank to provide something like a line of credit so the school can pay for fuel before the students cheques are deposited or the credit card machine batch posts. To make up for that, 'flight schools' often try to borrow their operating capital from the next sucker who walks through the door. I am sorry you became one of the victims of the 'prepaid flight training racket'. It looks like you are not dealing with the outright crooks who run those outfits at times, their promise to credit your time at the new location suggests that they want to keep you as a customer (and no, your actual money is gone gone, they are just willing to eat 5 hrs of instruction and rental to make sure you stick around for the rest of the course). There have been pre-paid flight training scams with damages in the millions.
 
weilke said:
It looks like you are not dealing with the outright crooks who run those outfits at times, their promise to credit your time at the new location suggests that they want to keep you as a customer (and no, your actual money is gone gone, they are just willing to eat 5 hrs of instruction and rental to make sure you stick around for the rest of the course).
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Sactly :D

And don't be surprised if they ask you to buy more time to get the old time credited. If I were in their shoes that is what I would do - they have no obligation to carry the debt of the previous firm.

At that point either walk away or, if you like working with them, tell them they can repay the old time as a hefty discount on pay-as-you-go time going forward. Once burned and all that.
 
alfadog said:
And don't be surprised if they ask you to buy more time to get the old time credited. If I were in their shoes that is what I would do - they have no obligation to carry the debt of the previous firm.

At that point either walk away or, if you like working with them, tell them they can repay the old time as a hefty discount on pay-as-you-go time going forward. Once burned and all that.
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There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again." :wink2:
 
I talked to the chief pilot/co owner of the old school. he characterized it as the group of employees "taking over" the operation and moving it. I don't know what arrangements they may have made financially, if any, but the name changed on the Flight Schedule Pro account and someone's obviously doing some work on that site today - moving stuff, changing instructor availability, etc.

I had 2 hours scheduled for yesterday; 2 hours for today, 2 for tomorrow and 2 for Saturday. Since I'm apparently not going to be able to fly until at least Monday -- assuming they actually open when they plan, AND they actually do credit me with what I paid the old place -- I'm just going to devote that time to getting back up to speed to take my knowledge test. At one point in Nov or so of last year I was consistently scoring 96-98% on the practice exams; now I'm back down into the low 80s and need to re-study weather charts/reports, performance and W&B. With that many hours of study I'll get the knowledge test taken next week and see what shakes out as far as flying. This has pretty much made me decide to push things along so I can get my ticket as soon as possible and be done with this whole mess.

One thing is for sure -- I'm not pre-paying anyone for squat.
 
DaleB said:
I'm just going to devote that time to getting back up to speed to take my knowledge test. At one point in Nov or so of last year I was consistently scoring 96-98% on the practice exams; now I'm back down into the low 80s and need to re-study weather charts/reports, performance and W&B. With that many hours of study I'll get the knowledge test taken next week and see what shakes out as far as flying.
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Make sure you have up to date questions if you use them as a stud aid. The FAA is shuffling around some of the questions and introducing new ones, material you used a year ago may not be current enough.

One thing is for sure -- I'm not pre-paying anyone for squat.
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That should be posted over the door at every flight school and it should be item #1 on the 'flight students bill of rights'.
 
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