Bleeding brakes

Timbeck2

Final Approach
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Timbeck2
Quite the ordeal for a Cherokee with dual toe brakes apparently. Had to cancel my flight yesterday morning because I didn't have a left brake. I had one when I landed a week ago. Makes me wonder how something works one minute and doesn't the next. No leaks external or internal. I can pump it up with the emergency brake but then it just goes to the floor.

Any ideas or experience with this?
 
Possibly air in the lines. I imagine you have aluminum lines, so hard to check. Anytime I see bubbles in my Glasair nylon lines, the brakes are useless. Just had it happen the other day. Bleed and refill.
 
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Interesting. Is it dead on both left pedals?

The Cherokee 180 I fly the most doesn't have toe brakes on either side. I never thought much of it but that's a pretty good maintenance saving. It's the only plane I've used the hand brake on. :)

I recently added co-pilot toe brakes to my plane. Theoretically I'm going to practice flying right seat, become a CFI, and give transition training when I retire. Hopefully that's not too unrealistic for a 5 year plan.
 
Quite the ordeal for a Cherokee with dual toe brakes apparently. Had to cancel my flight yesterday morning because I didn't have a left brake. I had one when I landed a week ago. Makes me wonder how something works one minute and doesn't the next. No leaks external or internal. I can pump it up with the emergency brake but then it just goes to the floor.

Any ideas or experience with this?
Welcome to Cherokee brakes. They can be bled and will be firm again for awhile. When ya get to bleeding them frequently just replace all seals and hoses. They'll be good for a few years after that minor maintenance evolution.

Oh, don't try to pressure bleed them from the reservoir side...no matter how much the auto mechanic turned A&P wants to do it that way...
 
When I blew a seal last week the mechanic said he bled lines from bottom up.

However there may still be small bubbles in the line and when we hit altitude on the way home would need to have it done again.
 
Fill the reservoir check them. If not good, bleed them. They seem to bleed aircraft brakes bottom to top.
 
Okay, spent an hour with it today before work. I hooked up clear plastic hose to the bleed nipple (giggity) and ran it to the reservoir. I filled the reservoir and pumped the left brakes until all the air came out. This included pilot's side, passenger side and hand brake. Funny thing is that when I pump the passenger side and the hand brake, (independently) the pilot's brake moves down as well. I put my foot under the pilot's brake to keep it from moving and with my mad Cirque du Soleil contortionist skills, pumped the passenger brake. A bunch of air came out of the lines but I still have the problem. I'm almost at a loss. I'm wondering now if it is the master cylinder for that side.
 
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All I will say is bleeding Cherokee brakes the first time is an experience you will remember for the rest of your life.
 
The only way to bleed a Cherokee is to pressure bleed them from the bottom.
Other wise you will be bleeding forever.

Bob
and lets not forget how we re-position the brake shuttle valves so we can bleed both sides of the system.
 
Do tell Tom. I'll need some illustrations though cause I'm stoopit.*




*The above was NOT meant to be sarcastic. Brake shuttle valves?
 
No brake shuttle valves in a Cherokee. The reservoir feeds the pilot's master cylinders, which pump fluid through the copilot's master cylinders and from there to the brake calipers. If there's a handbrake, it's between the reservoir and pilot's masters. And there are so many rubber hoses in the system that even with all the air out, the brakes are still spongy. Don't get fooled by that.

Bleeding these systems can be a real pain. There are many high spots where air is reluctant to move on through the system. You need considerable and constant flow rates to push it out. Pressure bleeding from the wheels up is pretty much necessary.
 
Bleeding brakes is a 2 person job. NOT something you can do by yourself.
 
Thanks Dan. I've read and re-read the service manual and there is nothing about shuttle valves on my Cherokee let alone how to "re-position" them.
 
Congrats on figuring out a way to do it by yourself. I've always used two people and so did my mechanic. But, where there is a will, there is a way. Necessity being the mother of invention...
 
I've ordered a master cylinder rebuild kit, a Cleveland bleeder and pressure pot and another quart of 5606A. I'm so sore from pumping brakes I'm going another way. Everything I've read says that pressure pot is the best way to go and and after these last couple of days, I'm believing it.
 
Shortly after buying into the Warrior the left brake went bad, pedal to the floor. There was no sign of fluid anywhere that was obvious. I researched the O-Rings for the cylinders and ordered a bunch and ordered AN caps for the hoses. I pulled both left hand cylinders, capping the lines and rebuilt the cylinders. The cylinder that came from the right side had been leaking as evidenced by the build up of gunk on the cylinder itself. Put the rebuilt cylinders in and a friend of mine and I proceeded to bleed the system. We did it for a long time wit nothing seemingly happening. He insisted we had a loose fitting. I crawled back under the panel and made sure everything was tight, it was. We went back to bleeding and within a couple of minutes we had pedal pressure and everything has worked fine since then, probably 6 years ago.
 
rebuilt the master cylinders in my Beech B19. I must say it took longer than I expected to bleed. That was 8 years ago, no problems since.
 
I did not know that.

Hmmm. Do I have to go drain all the fluid out of the brake systems that I've bled by myself?

:D:D

I bled my system once (by myself), with a pressure bleeder, from the bottom and the pedals are rock-solid. It took 10 minutes.

No need to buy a fancy pressure-bleeder system...Just go to Lowe's and buy a cheap pressure sprayer from the gardening section. They're under $10. You'll have to rig up and adapter of some sort if you need to neck down to smaller-diameter tubing for the bleeder nipple.

Of course, some systems are going to be harder to bleed than others due to air pockets in low spots, etc.
 
Yep, the adapter was $25 and I'm going today to buy the 1 gallon pressure sprayer.
 
Or similar:


That will tend to make a mess. There is no seal around the top of that master cylinder plunger, and fluid will squirt out of it when the reservoir gets full. In that system one usually has to pump fluid into the caliper and watch the level rising in the reservoir. I do wish the designers had included a seal of some sort, but they probably figured, rightly, that it would get sticky as it got dry when the fluid level fell. At least the Piper system doesn't do that.
 
Your bottom picture Brian is what I didn't pay $100 for. I've got the adapter for the bleed caliper nipple and I'll get a small pressure sprayer. I was going to pick up one yesterday but the shelf space in which they are usually located was occupied by Christmas decorations.
 
I'm with ya!!! That's what I got a wife for. Completely bled my Ford Escape 3 times working on a brake 'slow release' problem. Ended up being both front hoses, internal deterioration.

For the automotive stuff, I swear by Speed Bleeders. They're caliper bleeder nipples with a built-in check valve, and cost about $8 apiece. Makes for very easy one-person bleeding.
 
Large oil can with tubing seems to work pretty well also...
 
The following is a good procedure.

Bleeding Your
Cherokee Brakes
For as long as I can
remember, bleeding the
brakes on the Cherokee
family of aircraft (which applies
all the PA-28, PA-32 and PA-
34 models) has been a problem.
For years I have also listened to
many mechanics and owners
suggest different approaches
that they have taken to bleed the
brakes and all with a limited
amount of success. After years
of fighting spongy brakes, I felt
there had to be a better way.
The procedure that I use
may not be original, but I have
used it for more than 45 years,
and it has worked for me every
time without a great deal of
trouble or expense.
Before we get involved
with the actual process, I would
highly recommend that all the
brake hoses from the parking
brake to the master cylinders to
the actual brake calipers be
inspected very closely. I have
seen many old hoses actually
swell when brake pressure is
being applied due to just being
old. If the hoses are more than
eight years old or have more than
1,000 hours on them, replace
by Dick Russ
them. Brakes are the best
insurance you can have. If you
were to taxi into another plane on
or off the runway due to a
ruptured or leaking hose, the
insurance company might have a
good case for not paying up since
the factory recommends
replacement every eight years or
1,000 hours. But then that's
another story.
In the way of tools and
equipment, you will need a
quarter-inch box-end wrench (it
would be best to have two
quarter-inch box wrenches, one
for each brake caliper, to make
the brake bleeding process
eaSIer.
NOTE: I have found it very
helpful to reduce the thickness
ofthe box end of the wrench by
grinding it to where the wrench
is not as thick which will allow
the tubing to have more area to
fit over the bleed port.
May 2008
Even though the reservoir may
appear full, continue to check the
reservoir fluid level throughout
the bleeding process. You don't
want to the reservoir to run low
on fluid which will make you have
to start over again.
It's helpful to have an
assistant in the plane during the
brake bleeding process, but it
isn't essential, just helpful.
Loosen the bleed port
fitting and start pumping the
brakes. Continue the pumping
action and observe the hydraulic
fluid flowing in the clear tubing.
Check the reservoir to make sure
you have the reservoir toped off
with fluid. Once the tubing is full
of5606, you won't have to worry
about the reservoir fluid level.
Continue to pump the foot brakes
as well as the parking brake,
observing the flow of hydraulic
fluid until you no longer see any
air bubbles flowing inside the
tubing.
Continue pumping the
You will need 25 feet of
clear 3/16-inch inside diameter
plastic tubing (TYGON). You will
need 50 feet of tubing if you do
both sides simultaneously. Tygon
tubing can normally be found in
the plumbing department of most
hardware stores; it's not very
expensive. Other items you will
need include duct or masking
tape, and .032 safety wire.
You will also need at least
one quart of Mil-H-5606
hydraulic fluid. Mil-H-5606 is
normally available at most FBO's
or from some A&P mechanics. It
may also be purchased from
Aircraft Spruce in gallon
quantities. If you do not have any
on hand, I would suggest at least
two quarts, especially if you have
replaced hoses or overhauled
components of your hydraulic
system. If you have just installed
new o-rings in the calipers or are
just bleeding the brakes then one
quart should be enough. On the
other hand, it's always a good
idea to just have some Mil-H-
5606 around since it is also used
in the landing gear as well.
Now that you are ready to
get started, open the left engine
cowl or remove the top cowl for
access to the brake fluid reservoir
which is mounted on the left side
of the firewall.
Cut the plastic tubing into
two 25-foot sections (one if you
bought 50 feet). Place one of the
quarter-inch box wrenches on the
bleed port fitting which is located
on the lower side of the brake
caliper (right or left brake). Slide
one end of the plastic tubing over
the end ofthe brake bleeder port
fitting. Wrap a small coil of safety
wire around the end of the tubing
to secure it to the brake caliper
bleed port like a clamp.
Using a tie-wrap or
masking tape, secure the tubing
to the existing brake hose or
landing gear strut to make sure
the plastic tubing will not pull it
loose from the caliper bleed
port. Run the tubing up and
over the leading edge of the
wing. Continue with the tubing
taking it up and over the top of
the cabin. Secure the tubing to
the top of the windshield with
tape and continue down across
the windshield to the brake
fluid reservoir.
Remove the brake
reservoir cap and insert the end
of the tubing into brake fluid
reserVOIr.
Repeat the preceding
steps for the other side of the
plane.
Next make sure your
brake reservoir is topped off
with the Mil-H-5606 hydraulic
fluid before you get started.
Tubing Secured Over Top of Windshield
brakes alternating from the hand and have a hard brake pedal. In
brake to the pedals for about five most cases I have found that this
minutes to make sure you have procedure works the first time
all the air removed from the around.
system. When you can no longer
see any air bubbles, close the
bleed port fitting on the brake
(~aliper and repeat the same
operation for the other side.
Normally, when you no
longer have air bubbles showing
up in the tubing you will be done
On the other hand, if you
find the brake pedals or parking
brake still spongy, you probably
have some trapped air in one of
the master cylinders. This is
normally caused by an air bubble
trapped near the top fitting of
one or more of the master
cylinders.
To remove the' air
bubble, place an old towel under
the master cylinder being bled.
Pump the hand brake and lock
the handle. With a 9/16-inch
wrench, momentarily loosen the
top hose fitting and then
immediately retighten the hose
fitting. Release the hand brake
and check the brakes again. If
needed, you may need to do the
same procedure for each brake
master cylinder although only
rarely have I had to do this.
When you are finished
with the brake bleeding, remove
the safety wire and tubing from
the bleed port. Immerse the end
of tubing in a jar or can of the
Mi14I-5606. Carefully remove
the tube you are working with
from the reservoir and allow the
fluid to drain back into the jar
or can. Repeat this for the other
side as well.
After you are finished,
check to make sure your
reservoir is full of fluid and
serviced as needed. Reinstall the
cap on the reservoir and re-cowl
your engine or latch the cowl
door, depending on which you
have. You are now ready to go
flying with good, solid brakes.
 
Jaws, I know you're trying to help and I appreciate it. But right when it gets to the procedure is where it starts to not make sense.


"Tubing Secured Over Top of Windshield
brakes alternating from the hand and have a hard brake pedal. In
brake to the pedals for about five most cases I have found that this
minutes to make sure you have procedure works the first time
all the air removed from the around.
system. When you can no longer
see any air bubbles, close the
bleed port fitting on the brake
(~aliper and repeat the same
operation for the other side."

Da fuq?
 
For the automotive stuff, I swear by Speed Bleeders. They're caliper bleeder nipples with a built-in check valve, and cost about $8 apiece. Makes for very easy one-person bleeding.

Too bad they won't work in the airplane application since the check valve needs to "check" the opposite way during pressure bleeding.
 
Sorry, cut and paste malfunction.

Basically, push fluid up from the bottom. With each master cylinder and fittings wrapped in rags and pressure in the system from below, crack the hose fittings until clear fluid runs out then retighten. Start at the position closest to the caliper, then the next and then the next. Then run more fluid through until it is clear. Might take more than one time around.
 
Okay since I have dual brakes and a hand brake my bleeding sequence would be: pilot's left, right, hand brake, passenger left, and then right for the left brake and reverse order for the right brake? There are two "bleedable" fittings on each of the master cylinders, top one only?

So how do you keep the reservoir from overflowing in a pressure bleed situation? Do you suck it out with a turkey baster every now and then?
 
Okay since I have dual brakes and a hand brake my bleeding sequence would be: pilot's left, right, hand brake, passenger left, and then right for the left brake and reverse order for the right brake? There are two "bleedable" fittings on each of the master cylinders, top one only?

So how do you keep the reservoir from overflowing in a pressure bleed situation? Do you suck it out with a turkey baster every now and then?
When you are back feeding the system from the brake, how do you select which brake master cylinder will allow fluid to flow thru it to the reservoir?

I have a hose from the reservoir to a container. simply allow the extra fluid to go to the container.
 
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