Beyond Deadly Force ... Options To Use (n/a)

[Daleandee]

In another thread Michael Cutler had an excellent post about de-escalation of a threat to you or a family member by thugs, criminals, bad guys, etc. In his post he said:

There have been several good points on here for the other side of the debate. Someone said that he carries some extra $20s, because if he can make a threat go away for $50 or even $100, that's a cheap price to pay. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree. In an Advanced Firearms Tactics and Training class I took, one of the most stressed points was of deescalation. Yes, if you can make that threat go away by giving up your phone, your wallet, your purse, your ________, then that is the best option. Any time you can walk away from the situation, that's a good outcome. But remember that the person on the other side of that equation is under a great deal of self-induced stress, and they may not think clearly. In that case, your offerings of your ________ may not suffice. Give up whatever you need to, but don't give up your family's and friend's lives in that exchange.

Full post here: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...ealed-carry-weapon.134506/page-6#post-3151801

While I wholeheartedly agree with what is being said here I'd like to continue the conversation into a couple of ongoing areas.

First: what specifically do you do to avoid and/or de-escalate these situations.

Secondly: isn't the thought of giving in to thugs (terrorism if you will) something we should not do? If my neighbor comes and steals tools out of my shed I'm not gonna harm them over that. How many times do I allow this (with nothing being done by local law enforcement) before I go beyond my beautiful disposition and give him a bit of comeuppance?

If I'm putting gas in my auto and a thug presents a knife wanting my wallet, it is easy to calm the situation by giving it to them but they have just threated me me grave injury or death, and made my life miserable by taking all my money and many valuable documents. If we as a society teach that we will just give in doesn't that embolden the criminals? Should we be more like the Baltimore Mayor that said, “we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well.”

I do agree with Michael and will allow my feet to do their duty and take me quickly away from any situation where running will work. I have no desire to ever harm another human and will always do all I can to prevent doing so even if it cost me material things. But where is the line?

With that in mind I ask again what do you do to prevent unwanted encounters and what options do you use to handle those you can't avoid?

 

[Sac Arrow]

Kill 'em all and let God sort them out.

 

[FormerHangie]

In another thread Michael Cutler had an excellent post about de-escalation of a threat to you or a family member by thugs, criminals, bad guys, etc. In his post he said:



Full post here: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...ealed-carry-weapon.134506/page-6#post-3151801

While I wholeheartedly agree with what is being said here I'd like to continue the conversation into a couple of ongoing areas.

First: what specifically do you do to avoid and/or de-escalate these situations.

Secondly: isn't the thought of giving in to thugs (terrorism if you will) something we should not do? If my neighbor comes and steals tools out of my shed I'm not gonna harm them over that. How many times do I allow this (with nothing being done by local law enforcement) before I go beyond my beautiful disposition and give him a bit of comeuppance?

If I'm putting gas in my auto and a thug presents a knife wanting my wallet, it is easy to calm the situation by giving it to them but they have just threated me me grave injury or death, and made my life miserable by taking all my money and many valuable documents. If we as a society teach that we will just give in doesn't that embolden the criminals? Should we be more like the Baltimore Mayor that said, “we also gave those who wished to destroy space to do that as well.”

I do agree with Michael and will allow my feet to do their duty and take me quickly away from any situation where running will work. I have no desire to ever harm another human and will always do all I can to prevent doing so even if it cost me material things. But where is the line?

With that in mind I ask again what do you do to prevent unwanted encounters and what options do you use to handle those you can't avoid?

Does this happen to you frequently?

 

[RyanShort1]

There's a book several at my church were urged to read called "Left of Bang" (Amazon link if it interests you).

 

[Morgan3820]

If you give in and hand them your wallet, phone or whatever, all it does is kick the problem down to the next person. Dead people don’t rob again.

 

[Daleandee]

Does this happen to you frequently?

I'm just asking the question. You're welcome to join the conversation.

 

[Matthew]

Kill 'em all and let God sort them out.

Back in another lifetime (college), I'm pretty sure it was National Lampoon that had a cartoon I remember. Back then, PDs were making the switch from .38 revolvers to 9mm semiautos. One reason given for the change was that PCP(angel dust) crazies were taking more than 6 rounds to drop. The cartoon took that one extra step and showed a cop with a flamethrower blasting a guy while saying, "Eat flaming justice, dusthead!!!"

 

[GaryM]

But where is the line?

A useful generalization is that deadly force may be used to defend life, but not property. A lot of states see it that way.
But I'm not a lawyer, so don't mistake that for legal advice.

 

[Tantalum]

(A) I stopped following that thread but thanks for the reference to it, a great post indeed.. I added to the post's like count
(B) to answer your questions

First: what specifically do you do to avoid and/or de-escalate these situations.

..I haven't been in too many directly scary situations.. but the two most recent times, here's what I did
(A) late at night (say 2am?) walking home in an "up and coming" part of town someone wearing only boxer shorts started following us.. probably 1 to 2 car lengths in trail. Dude wasn't homeless, but obviously high on something. Me and my girlfriend. I kept a steady pace towards our car, didn't look, didn't turn around, didn't run. Dude starts saying in a menacing town "I'm going to get you, I am going to eat your face" .. not exactly comforting things to hear. Ignored the dude.. got to our car, I didn't chirp the unlock until we were right next to it. And in we got. I am convinced if I'd turned around or shown any reaction the situation would have escalated. Had he started running towards us I had the carabiner on my key ring in my fist in my pocket ready.

(B) in Central America, broad daylight, but slightly off the beaten path in a town.. homeless person starts walking with us, and is clearly interested in one of the women with us. We pop into a store, but he hangs out outside waiting for us. Store owner takes notice, talks to him, asks him to leave.. he does but comes back, so the police get called. They showed up very fast.. maybe 2 minutes?.. and cleared the guy out

^you can take a lot of clues from the animal world.. travel in groups, don't engage.. etc. Even historically "scary" animals (wolves, sharks, bears, various birds of prey) typically work to avoid confrontation and resort to "deadly force" only after severe provocation

Secondly: isn't the thought of giving in to thugs (terrorism if you will) something we should not do? If my neighbor comes and steals tools out of my shed I'm not gonna harm them over that. How many times do I allow this (with nothing being done by local law enforcement) before I go beyond my beautiful disposition and give him a bit of comeuppance?

I get the logic, but we live in an established functioning (relatively speaking) society. There are vehicles in place for handling that.. 500 years ago, sure.. it was more dog eat dog out there. But today.. if tools keep getting stolen out of your shed might be time for a better lock, some security cameras, and get the local constabulary on speed dial

and made my life miserable

..but you have the luxury to sacrifice $50.. can't be that miserable. Would you want to trade places? It's not fair, but the word is not a fair place. Avoid sketchy parts of town where you may get mugged at the ATM

I full heartedly our rights to bear arms, but it really ought be an "okay, I am totally out of options" scenario.



PS.. most criminals rely on fear to get what they want. Don't show that, or just dazzle them with nonsense.. and you're probably going to be okay

 

[Daleandee]

A useful generalization is that deadly force may be used to defend life, but not property. A lot of states see it that way.
But I'm not a lawyer, so don't mistake that for legal advice.

I agree and that's a fair point. Now let's look at an old man and a young thug full of Flakka. The thug isn't carrying a weapon to speak of but the old man doesn't have a chance against him. Is deadly force warranted?

 

[bflynn]

I agree and that's a fair point. Now let's look at an old man and a young thug full of Flakka. The thug isn't carrying a weapon to speak of but the old man doesn't have a chance against him. Is deadly force warranted?

Depends on so much. In some states, no, in some maybe, in some yes. But you'd better be read to prove the aggression and deadly threat regardless of where you are.

 

[bflynn]

...we live in an established functioning (relatively speaking) society. There are vehicles in place for handling that.

Increasingly, we live in a society becoming dysfunctional. The rule of law is breaking down and justice depends on who your friends are and who is in power. The vehicles for handling issues seem to veer off the tracks with far too much frequency. We started going off the rails 50 years ago and now we don't even teach kids to adhere to law. Is it any wonder that so many other things are breaking?

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

 

[GaryM]

I agree and that's a fair point. Now let's look at an old man and a young thug full of Flakka. The thug isn't carrying a weapon to speak of but the old man doesn't have a chance against him. Is deadly force warranted?

I've no real qualification to answer that. But since you asked, 'disparity of force' is a legal concept likely to be introduced in the defense of the old man.

 

[Lowflynjack]

A useful generalization is that deadly force may be used to defend life, but not property. A lot of states see it that way.
But I'm not a lawyer, so don't mistake that for legal advice.

Well, I live in Texas... so we're not one of those states!

My general rule is, if I can avoid a situation, I will. If I can't, I will react and react swiftly to defend myself or others. Don't hesitate so long by defusing the situation that you get hurt. Assume the person you are dealing with is armed and/or dangerous and be prepared to defend yourself. I've taught self-defense classes to women and the number one rule is when you feel like you can't get away, it's time to fight without hesitation and don't hold back.

 

[Lachlan]

Nowadays it’s easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys. In the old days the bad guys wore masks. Today, it’s different.

 

[GaryM]

Nowadays it’s easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys. In the old days the bad guys wore masks. Today, it’s different.

I kinda feel sorry for bank tellers. Having masked people coming to their window all day has to add to the stress level.

 

[Rushie]

I agree in theory it’s best to de-escalate rather than shoot someone, but in reality there really is no way of knowing what the criminal’s true intention is. In the case of my coworker’s wife, the couple she was trying to help initially took her to an ATM and made her withdraw cash. That should have been enough but for whatever reason they put her back in the car, took her out of town, murdered her and dumped her in a river, presumably so she couldn’t testify to the robbery.

In the case of my brother being approached by three men, sure, maybe he could have handed over his wallet and cell phone, and they would have said thank you, got in their car and left. Or they could have robbed him, then killed him to get rid of the witness. Or maybe they wanted to beat up a random person. Or they could have had sexual assault in mind. Yes, it happens to males too. Maybe they had dismember-you-with-a-machete-while-you’re-still-alive in mind. That happens too.

A car pulls up while he’s walking in a deserted parking lot, three men get out, leaving the car running, leaving the doors open, and they start approaching him from his 12 o’clock, 10 o’clock and 3 o’clock. Showing them that he was armed and willing to shoot them if necessary was the only appropriate response.

Maybe in other cases you can try to talk someone out of the crime, or give them money and they’ll leave you alone, maybe if you know the person and their pattern of behavior is somewhat predictable.

Otherwise you can avoid confrontations altogether and that’s best. For example, road rage. Just don’t. Don’t be an ass when you drive and if somebody else is an ass just let it go. That’s the kind of avoidance and de-escalation that is appropriate. I drive real nice because I have a gun. When I walk around in public I’m nice and polite to everyone because I have a gun.

 

[charheep]

I have told my wife, if someone breaks into the house, go to the upstairs far bedroom and yell that you are scared for you life. Yell it loud with the windows open. Call 911 and tell them someone is in the house and you are scared for your life.

If the people breaking in climb the stairs, then she will shoot until the danger is removed. If they steal the whole first floor's property, then that can be replaced. If they climb a few stairs, then she needs to protect herself and the kid. At that point, she cannot know what they are thinking and only assume they mean to bodily harm.

Again, property should not be defended with firearms/deadly force. Its the gray area of what is the intention of the bad people that needs to be thought through. Her being a woman and usually with a small child, she can use the "I feared for my and my kids' life" defense more than I could. She knows if someone tries to rob her, to throw her purse the opposite direction and stay moving away. That way she can judge the intentions. In CCW class, they said someone with a knife that is closer than 25 feet (if I remember correctly) can inflict damage before most trained cops can draw and fire. Space is the best way to defuse the situation. Lots of distance.

 

[eman1200]

I just give them the 'eman stare' and that's usually enough to scare 'em off. if for some reason that doesn't work I give them the 'sac crazy eyes' look and it rarely escalates beyond that. it's good to have several tools to work with.

 

[Kristin]

Increasingly, we live in a society becoming dysfunctional. The rule of law is breaking down and justice depends on who your friends are and who is in power. The vehicles for handling issues seem to veer off the tracks with far too much frequency. We started going off the rails 50 years ago and now we don't even teach kids to adhere to law. Is it any wonder that so many other things are breaking?

"A Republic, if you can keep it."

If society is becoming dysfunctional, how is it that violent crime has been trending down over the last few decades?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

 

[Robert Gee]

Imagine all the Karens and Kens armed,
How a father&son started it over garbage in an alley.

Meanwhile, how its going

(Seems like their mugshot photo for Murder are not uploading for me)

We as regular citizens can do things that LEOs cant, like knee-capping a fool or turning and walking away.
What would you do if you rolled up on this scene?

 

[Zeldman]

I just give them the 'eman stare' and that's usually enough to scare 'em off.

You mean like this.??

 

[eman1200]

You mean like this.??

Careful, you’ll scare people off by posting that!

 

[MauleSkinner]

If society is becoming dysfunctional, how is it that violent crime has been trending down over the last few decades?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

Violent crimes don’t have the income potential that most politicians, er, criminals, want.

 

[Salty]

I just give them the 'eman stare' and that's usually enough to scare 'em off. if for some reason that doesn't work I give them the 'sac crazy eyes' look and it rarely escalates beyond that. it's good to have several tools to work with.

I thought it was the ‘eman smell’ that did it at long range.

 

[Piperonca]

I just give them the 'eman stare' and that's usually enough to scare 'em off. if for some reason that doesn't work I give them the 'sac crazy eyes' look and it rarely escalates beyond that. it's good to have several tools to work with.

Or, you can do this: https://www.today.com/popculture/copperfield-magically-avoids-getting-robbed-1C9493198

 

[somorris]

I agree in theory it’s best to de-escalate rather than shoot someone, but in reality there really is no way of knowing what the criminal’s true intention is. In the case of my coworker’s wife, the couple she was trying to help initially took her to an ATM and made her withdraw cash. That should have been enough but for whatever reason they put her back in the car, took her out of town, murdered her and dumped her in a river, presumably so she couldn’t testify to the robbery.

In the case of my brother being approached by three men, sure, maybe he could have handed over his wallet and cell phone, and they would have said thank you, got in their car and left. Or they could have robbed him, then killed him to get rid of the witness. Or maybe they wanted to beat up a random person. Or they could have had sexual assault in mind. Yes, it happens to males too. Maybe they had dismember-you-with-a-machete-while-you’re-still-alive in mind. That happens too.

A car pulls up while he’s walking in a deserted parking lot, three men get out, leaving the car running, leaving the doors open, and they start approaching him from his 12 o’clock, 10 o’clock and 3 o’clock. Showing them that he was armed and willing to shoot them if necessary was the only appropriate response.

If I were in the situation your brother was in, I would have zero doubt in my mind that the three people had evil intent and meant to harm me. I think he did exactly the right thing and should have been (probably was) preparing to defend himself with deadly force.

It is pretty easy to sit around and philosophize on a forum like this or sitting around the table having a few beers, but when you find yourself in a situation like your brother did, it would be advisable to be prepared to defend yourself or it may be your last day in this life.

It is kind of interesting that we got into a discussion like this on a flying forum. It is obvious it is on a lot of folk's mind.

 

[eman1200]

I thought it was the ‘eman smell’ that did it at long range.

that's more on the sac side. I call it the five point palm exploding stink sac stare down technique.

 

[asicer]

It's complicated.

On the one hand, giving out $20's is de-escalating. Cut your losses and prevent a bad situation from becoming worse.
On the other hand, giving out $20's is incentivizing armed robbery.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I have luckily never been in a situation (that I can recall) where I have feared for my safety or the safety of those around me to the point where I thought there would be a physical confrontation. However, the things that typically interest me don't generally take me into areas that are risky, especially at odd hours of the night. I'm also not a particularly small guy, and am not likely the most effective target for someone wanting to mug me. I am generally pretty mindful of my surroundings so that I don't put myself in a vulnerable situation. In general, I do not condone using lethal force to protect possessions, but if I'm in my home and someone breaks inside I will assume they have the worst of intentions and will respond accordingly with lethal force. I don't negotiate when it comes to protecting my family or myself. Full stop.

 

[bflynn]

If society is becoming dysfunctional, how is it that violent crime has been trending down over the last few decades?

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/

Why do you use violence as the sole means of judging dysfunction? When law falls apart, we lose the predictability for the future. When what the law is depends on who is enforcing it, the idea of a government run by law is essentially dead.

As to your question, there are many answers. An aging population who tends to commit fewer crimes is one. The training of children to be restrained is another...with a related side effect of why the pilot population began declining around the same time.

 

[RyanShort1]

Nowadays it’s easy to tell the good guys from the bad guys. In the old days the bad guys wore masks. Today, it’s different.

Or is it.

 

[schmookeeg]

Again, property should not be defended with firearms/deadly force.

I read this point of view a lot. It represents a major break with my way of thinking and much of what I read on social media.

I think within the confines of my own property, where someone is uninvited with intent to do me any harm, including property, it is okay for stricter punishments than "book" to be meted out.

(the CFI's foot instinctively moves to the left rudder pedal)

 

[Joe_B1]

I guess if I want to talk about aviation I should frequent a gun forum!

 

[Robert Gee]

I guess if I want to talk about aviation I should frequent a gun forum!

Thats where you go for....
You just gotta know what to ignore and what type of person is easily triggered on subjects. I dont know if they have no one else to talk to, driven them away or are just trying to keep convincing themselves. No minds are getting changed here and the silent majority is a myth. Sometimes its just fun to needle them, something like America needs fewer Christians and more people like Christ, and baffle them with facts until they melt down but mostly it just causes a deep entrenching of ideas because...internet sez.

 

[Salty]

What beyond deadly force anyway? Creationary force?

 

[RyanB]

You mean like this.??

Hey! My clock just stopped!

 

[Morgan3820]

I guess if I want to talk about aviation I should frequent a gun forum!

It is on the Hanger Talk forum. If the current topic triggers you, , you don’t have to participate.

 

[Daleandee]

I have told my wife, if someone breaks into the house, go to the upstairs far bedroom and yell that you are scared for you life. Yell it loud with the windows open. Call 911 and tell them someone is in the house and you are scared for your life.

If the people breaking in climb the stairs, then she will shoot until the danger is removed. If they steal the whole first floor's property, then that can be replaced. If they climb a few stairs, then she needs to protect herself and the kid. At that point, she cannot know what they are thinking and only assume they mean to bodily harm.

Again, property should not be defended with firearms/deadly force. Its the gray area of what is the intention of the bad people that needs to be thought through. Her being a woman and usually with a small child, she can use the "I feared for my and my kids' life" defense more than I could. She knows if someone tries to rob her, to throw her purse the opposite direction and stay moving away. That way she can judge the intentions. In CCW class, they said someone with a knife that is closer than 25 feet (if I remember correctly) can inflict damage before most trained cops can draw and fire. Space is the best way to defuse the situation. Lots of distance.

I have training to verify that someone with a knife within 25' means you need to quickly put some distance between you and them.

We disagree on someone breaking into my home. If things go like I plan the person breaching the door will be carried by six while I'm being judged by twelve.

Perhaps I need a sign on the exterior of the front door that reads;

This door locked for your protection

 

[wilkersk]

I like guns. I used to compete, at one point I was shooting/reloading over 1,000 rounds a week in 9mm and .45. I've taken "defensive handgun" and advanced defensive firearm tactics courses. Had a concealed carry permit for a number of years. Didn't renew it last time it expired. It was just for convenience, I've never felt the need to carry a firearm for protection here inside CONUS.

I've had a dingle-berry come to my house and threaten bodily harm, I've chased off a burglar, I've been confronted by a road-raging idiot, and I've been (unsuccessfully) "mugged" twice (both times the mugger looked worse than I did afterwards). Haven't needed a gun yet.

And, given the level of commitment and competency required to realistically expect to be successful in an actual gunfight, I think I'll keep the gun as a last possible, got me cornered in my own bedroom defensive tool.

All LEO types have my utmost respect. Because, every time they go out in public, they have the responsibility to ensure that what ever knucklehead they face cannot take their weapon away from them. That is why in an officer-involved shooting, the benefit of the doubt must always go to the officer, instead of the PC BS we're doing now. And, why I'd never be a cop.

--JMHO