Beyond Burger 2.0

EdFred said:
Had a blind date once. I show up in a leather jacket, leather shoes, leather belt and nothing else. (OK, I was wearing normal clothes too). She's wearing nothing but plant based clothing. She orders salad, I order...half a chicken. Before the food even arrives, the conversation steers to our food choices, she's says she's vegetarian, and I immediately ask "So, are you doing it for your health, or are you one of those animal rights wackos?" Yeah, I used the term wacko. Her response was that she belongs to PETA. I didn't bother to hold back on my opinions after that. And I made sure to devour that chicken without remorse.
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I never think of these things in the moment, but only later when it does no good. You should have told her you are also a member of PETA. People for the Eating of Tasty Animals.
 
Fallsrider said:
Why do you say that?

I care. And I imagine a few million other people do, as well. There are a lot of nutritionists who care very much about cholesterol. And physicians, too. If your cholesterol is over 200, are you going to die of a stroke or heart attack soon? Probably not. But it is not near as simple as saying cholesterol intake is irrelevant. Generally speaking, I think less is better than more.

Obviously, there is a whole lot more to healthy eating than cholesterol intake. That's only one component of many. But it is not irrelevant in my opinion. I eat red meat. I just try to eat it in moderation.
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Of course if your own cholesterol level is high it's a bad thing, but there has never been any study that proved a causal relationship between dietary cholesterol and blood serum cholesterol levels.

This all started from observational assumptions made in the 40's and 50's - oohh... look at this waxy thing, it's bad for you - oooh, it's in eggs too - that must be where you get it from!

And then causation got "proven" by giving rabbits pharmaceutical levels of cholesterol (6 eggs a day). It was later found that herbivores respond very different to dietary cholesterol than omnivores - the same study couldn't be repeated in dogs. Studies thereafter were correlation based and turned out to be more of a measurement of the effects of saturated fat, than of cholesterol. However, nonetheless the AHA introduced its 3 egg/weak guidance in 1968, then changed it to 300mg of cholesterol per day in 2002, and it has been on the books until 2013 when they finally reversed it and said "There is insufficient evidence to determine whether lowering dietary cholesterol reduces LDL-C.". Following that, in 2015 the DGAC formally removed the dietary cholesterol intake limit. So if your nutritionist still prescribes a limit today, tell him/her to go back to school.

Does it harm to try and reduce dietary cholesterol "just in case"? Yes it does because most people ended up substituting it with something that was MUCH worse for them: Instead of having eggs for breakfast people started having cereal.

I personally eat 2 to 3 eggs a day, and 12 oz or more of red meat a day - pretty much every day. Have for 40 years. My cholesterol level currently is 81 LDL-C, 57 HDL-C.

There was one time in my life where my LDL was just slightly over 100, and that was after a 30 week low calorie medical nutritional plan in 2004 where I stopped eating red meat completely and switched to a diet based on chicken breasts etc. and little or no saturated fat. It was a program that reported their results to the CDC. Before I started, my LDL-C was low 80's like always, at the end of the program, it was 105. My tests got excluded when they reported the program results to the CDC, because "obviously the test must have been wrong that day, because how else can you explain your LDL going up instead of down??". That has put a bad taste in my mouth about all of these kind of nutritional studies, and it's what makes me not surprise that these kind of erroneous studies last 50 years before they get corrected.
 
deonb said:
It was a program that reported their results to the CDC. Before I started, my LDL-C was low 80's like always, at the end of the program, it was 105. My tests got excluded when they reported the program results to the CDC, because "obviously the test must have been wrong that day, because how else can you explain your LDL going up instead of down??".
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Who funded the study? Vegetarians? :)
 
Mooney Fan said:
Why ruin a good burger with vegetables?

Need no stinking pickles or other rabbit food messing up my clogger burger
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Dude! Lettuce, tomato and a bunch of Wickles pickles is the minimum amount of vegetables to put on a good clogger burger! It's better if the lettuce is more than iceberg; cheese is good, but hardly vegetabularian; sauteed peppers & mushrooms are great; onions bring out the flavor of everything else, and are themselves milder if cooked.

Ain't nothing like a well-dressed burger!
 
I'd try one if it's priced right. In looking at the picture though the patty's a little thick for my liking. I don't want a burger that I have to stretch my mouth trying to fit it in.
 
Ryanb said:
Same here. I know a doctor and his mother who went completely vegan and they both look easily 15 years older than they should.
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Maybe they spent too much time in the sun. Could also be that they were fat from eating too many dead animals, and when they became vegetarians and got skinny again it made them look old. I've seen that happen. My students don't believe I'm old as I am, despite the bald head and gray hair.

Ryanb said:
Most all of the meat substitutes are soy and gluten based and nearly all soy in the United States (unless specifically labeled ‘organic’) is GMO. Things like soy protein isolates are terrible for your gut and digestive health, but it’s always found in these products. If you buy good quality, organically raised meats, I don’t see how the heavily processed, meat substitutes can be better for you. Each to their own.
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This is easily one of the most stupid things I've read on this site. First, not all meat substitutes are soy. I just ate patty made of wheat gluten, a food called Seitan. I eat lots of soy too, though I didn't always. The only thing "hard to digest" about soy is some complex carbohydrates that we don't have the enzymes to digest, commensal bacteria do it for us.

As far as GMOs, the only person reading this who interacts on a regular basis with an organism not touched by the hand of man is yours truly. My little Red Footed tortoise Rosie is pure 100% wild South American tortoise. Every other plant and animal with which you commonly come into contact has been genetically modified by humans. Why you think moving thousands of alleles at random is superior to moving them one at a time is a mystery to me. I can only think of two GMO soybeans that have hit the market. One is resistant to glyphosphate, the other changes the composition of the oil so it doesn't go rancid.

As far as why I'm a vegetarian. I started off because I was desperately poor, so economics. I continued for the health benefit. Now I just do it to **** people off. And I'm the only guy my age I know who doesn't have to take a fistful of pills to continue living.
 
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steingar said:
First, not all meat substitutes are soy
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Key word, I said ‘most’.
steingar said:
Every other plant and animal with which you commonly come into contact has been genetically modified by humans.
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If it’s grown organic, it is not genetically modified. Plain and simple.

My point was that I can’t see how these heavily processed, man made meat substitutes, and I’m not just talking about Beyond Meats, can really be any healthier for you, than lean, grass-fed beef or bison. If you prefer these products, more power to you, but I’m not convinced they’re any healthier.
 
Fallsrider said:
Why do you say that?

I care. And I imagine a few million other people do, as well. There are a lot of nutritionists who care very much about cholesterol. And physicians, too. If your cholesterol is over 200, are you going to die of a stroke or heart attack soon? Probably not. But it is not near as simple as saying cholesterol intake is irrelevant. Generally speaking, I think less is better than more.

Obviously, there is a whole lot more to healthy eating than cholesterol intake. That's only one component of many. But it is not irrelevant in my opinion. I eat red meat. I just try to eat it in moderation.
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Because almost no dietary cholesterol ever makes it to the bloodstream. You eat it, and the next day you **** it out.

The fact that some (maybe most) nutritionists and dieticians don't accept that is because most of them are more religious zealots than scientists. They all have their favorite diets that they push. I didn't start losing weight until I stopped listening to nutritionists and dieticians. Since I stopped listening to them, I've gone down two pants sizes. (Speaking of which, Members Mark blue jeans from Sam's Club are excellent -- and cheap.)

The reason most physicians don't accept it is because very few physicians know a damned thing about nutrition to begin with. The average student physician spends less than 20 hours of med school studying nutrition. https://health.usnews.com/wellness/...-07/how-much-do-doctors-learn-about-nutrition

Rich
 
steingar said:
Maybe they spent too much time in the sun. Could also be that they were fat from eating too many dead animals, and when they became vegetarians and got skinny again it made them look old. I've seen that happen. My students don't believe I'm old as I am, despite the bald head and gray hair.
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Ummmm...

Rich
 
JScarry said:
One identified the fake and the other did not.

If you are a vegetarian, why would you want a burger that tastes like meat. And if you are a dead-animal eater, why would you want to eat plants that taste like meat? Why not just eat meat? I don’t get the use case for these.
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I don't know about these chemically treated, preservative laced vege burgers on the market now, but I do believe a heavily plant based diet is healthier than a heavily meat based diet. I love a lot of good tasty vegetables but if there were one that actually tasted as good as meat, I would eat it in a heartbeat. If it weren't for health considerations, I could eat complete meat based diet with just a few carbs occasionally.
 
Ryanb said:
Key word, I said ‘most’.

If it’s grown organic, it is not genetically modified. Plain and simple.
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I can't believe you're really this ignorant. Ever seen a banana seed? They're the little black things in the fruit, and they're immature. Bananas can only reproduce vegetatively, a situation not evidenced in the wild. they're a man made plant. Ever seen rose seed? Roses are homeotic mutants where stamens and sepals were turned into petals. And I'll bet cash money you don't even know what an aurochs is. So according to you if I take my GMO plant and grow it sans fertilizer and pesticide, its natural too. Tell you what, that GMO soybean has a much better chance of surviving without humans than the vast majority of plants and animals with which you come into contact.

Ryanb said:
My point was that I can’t see how these heavily processed, man made meat substitutes, and I’m not just talking about Beyond Meats, can really be any healthier for you, than lean, grass-fed beef or bison. If you prefer these products, more power to you, but I’m not convinced they’re any healthier.
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That's because you know less than nothing about the subject.
 
Our local awesome wood-fired-pizza-and-off-the-beaten-path-beer place makes a GREAT vegetarian pizza. We order it with sausage and prosciutto.

Truth be told, we don't eat a lot of red meat; salads and other vegetables, fish, beans, rice and other grains mostly, but every once in a while a piece of bacon, some poutine w/ brisket, nachos w/ pulled pork, and the odd steak... sooooo good. Worrying extensively about what you eat can cause harm through the stress of doing so, in and of itself. We eat a little bit of everyting, enjoy everything, and don't overdo the stuff that you shouldn't overdo.

A couple years ago I was having dinner in a decent restaurant, trying to decide what to order, and I saw them bring out a beautiful bone-in ribeye a few tables away. I succumbed to temptation and ordered one. When they brought it to me, it looked and smelled wonderful... cut piece, went to take the first bite with a badly watering mouth, and I noticed a HUGE woman who had ordered a HUGER salad for dinner at the next table over absolutely GLARING at me. She proceeded to throw eye daggers at me throughout the entire meal. Finally, I walked over and asked her if I had done something to offend her. She looked at me and said, "You caused that poor cow's death!" I replied, "No Ma'am, you did.. you killed that magnificent beast." With a puzzled look, she replied, "How in the world did I do that?!?!" while pointing at her salad.

I said, "YOU ATE ALL OF IT'S FOOD!"
 
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I don't think either impossible foods or beyond meat has claimed that their products have health benefits (which would be lawsuit bait anyway), just less resource intensive. I suppose you could make a public health argument due to the lack of antibiotic use.

Hopefully they'll do pork (ersatzwurst? spork? naming things is hard) next, no more swine fever.
 
If the Beyond Burger is less resource intensive than beef, then logically, it should cost less. Remember that to produce beef, you have to convert all that soy material into a cow first. There is a more direct conversion process in the Beyond Burger patty. I think that they are ripping people off.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Yep, nobody tries to make bacon taste like tofu.
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You can't. Tofu has no taste. It's what a chameleon would taste like if light waves were taste particles. Trying to describe the flavor of tofu is like trying to describe the color of your windscreen.
 
MuseChaser said:
You can't. Tofu has no taste. It's what a chameleon would taste like if light waves were taste particles. Trying to describe the flavor of tofu is like trying to describe the color of your windscreen.
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Exactly...
 
"According to Odembo, the animals' meat just taste like normal meat. ... “My favourite meal is often reptiles especially snakes, lizards, chameleons and tortoise.”.
 
My burgers start out vegetarian, but then I run them through a steer! I’m 65, I’ve eaten meat, fowl, fish, and vegetables my whole life. I get regular exercise; my HR is 60 and my BP is 115/65. I don’t need to be no stinking vegetarian!
 
I actually had Beyond Meat burgers at 6Y9. Brought them up in a cooler so I'd have something to eat. They were good too.
 
Ryanb said:
Key word, I said ‘most’.
If it’s grown organic, it is not genetically modified. Plain and simple.
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This is what non-genetically modified Cauliflower looks like:
upload_2019-10-2_9-58-7.png

And Broccoli...
And Cabbage...
And Kale...
And Turnips...
And Brussels sprouts...

They all came from the same plant originally (Wild mustard), but are now different lines. People have no problems buying or selling any of those as either "Organic" or "Non-GMO".

This is also what makes the "Paleo" diet so amusing. It's supposed to be a diet based on what people ate in the paleolithic era (that ended 10'000 years ago). But the top recommended vegetables for Paleo are: Cauliflower, Broccoli, Brussels Sprouts, Cabbage, Kale... which didn't exist until 7500 years later. Here are some things that existed BEFORE that: The Roman Republic, Steel, Metal locks and keys, Windmills, Light houses, Screws, Mirrors, Passports, Crossbows, Pythagoras.


It seems like we're all fine eating food that have been genetically modified. Whether it be through breeding, pruning, grafting, cropping or transplants. All of those processes swap out genomes, and even whole mitochondria across individual specimens and species. This isn't natural evolution in any way, shape or form. Those changes were selective and deliberate, driven by humans, on a non-evolutionary timeline.

But can you imagine if a company were to dare take something that looks like a dandelion today and turn it into something that looks like a cauliflower? Or sell a blueberry that is the size of a tennis ball? (Natural tomatoes are the size of blueberries). You'd have a protest in front of them a mile deep.
 
deonb said:
This is what non-genetically modified Cauliflower looks like:
View attachment 78354

And Broccoli...
And Cabbage...
And Kale...
And Turnips...
And Brussels sprouts...

They all came from the same plant originally (Wild mustard), but are now different lines. People have no problems buying or selling any of those as either "Organic" or "Non-GMO".

This is also what makes the "Paleo" diet so amusing. It's supposed to be a diet based on what people ate in the paleolithic era (that ended 10'000 years ago). But the top recommended vegetables for Paleo are: Cauliflower, Broccoli, Brussels Sprouts, Cabbage, Kale... which didn't exist until 7500 years later. Here are some things that existed BEFORE that: The Roman Republic, Steel, Metal locks and keys, Windmills, Light houses, Screws, Mirrors, Passports, Crossbows, Pythagoras.


It seems like we're all fine eating food that have been genetically modified. Whether it be through breeding, pruning, grafting, cropping or transplants. All of those processes swap out genomes, and even whole mitochondria across individual specimens and species. This isn't natural evolution in any way, shape or form. Those changes were selective and deliberate, driven by humans, on a non-evolutionary timeline.

But can you imagine if a company were to dare take something that looks like a dandelion today and turn it into something that looks like a cauliflower? Or sell a blueberry that is the size of a tennis ball? (Natural tomatoes are the size of blueberries). You'd have a protest in front of them a mile deep.
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That's because 95% of the American public is comprised of morons. They just jump on whatever hashtag bandwagon of the week, and have no clue what they are or aren't for. Shhhhhh, don't tell them about navel oranges.
 
Maybe someone more versed in this than I can confirm, but I -think- genetic modification is a process that occurs in nature.
 
deonb said:
This is what non-genetically modified Cauliflower looks like:
View attachment 78354

And Broccoli...
And Cabbage...
And Kale...
And Turnips...
And Brussels sprouts...

They all came from the same plant originally (Wild mustard), but are now different lines. People have no problems buying or selling any of those as either "Organic" or "Non-GMO".

This is also what makes the "Paleo" diet so amusing. It's supposed to be a diet based on what people ate in the paleolithic era (that ended 10'000 years ago). But the top recommended vegetables for Paleo are: Cauliflower, Broccoli, Brussels Sprouts, Cabbage, Kale... which didn't exist until 7500 years later. Here are some things that existed BEFORE that: The Roman Republic, Steel, Metal locks and keys, Windmills, Light houses, Screws, Mirrors, Passports, Crossbows, Pythagoras.


It seems like we're all fine eating food that have been genetically modified. Whether it be through breeding, pruning, grafting, cropping or transplants. All of those processes swap out genomes, and even whole mitochondria across individual specimens and species. This isn't natural evolution in any way, shape or form. Those changes were selective and deliberate, driven by humans, on a non-evolutionary timeline.

But can you imagine if a company were to dare take something that looks like a dandelion today and turn it into something that looks like a cauliflower? Or sell a blueberry that is the size of a tennis ball? (Natural tomatoes are the size of blueberries). You'd have a protest in front of them a mile deep.
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They REALLY got it wrong when they hit Kale...
 
steingar said:
Kale is a form of lettuce, not cabbage.
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Might want to re-verify that. It appears they aren't even in the same order.
Kale: Brassicales (which includes the veggies deonb mentioned)
Lettuce: Asterales

They are the same Class/Clade (Eudicots)however. But that's like saying a whale is a form of human or vice versa.

Lettuce is more closely related to sunflowers.
 
EdFred said:
Might want to re-verify that. It appears they aren't even in the same order.
Kale: Brassicales (which includes the veggies deonb mentioned)
Lettuce: Asterales

They are the same Class/Clade (Eudicots)however. But that's like saying a whale is a form of human or vice versa.

Lettuce is more closely related to sunflowers.
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I stand corrected.
 
I always thought cabbage and lettuce were closely related just based on looks too.
 
steingar said:
Just had it in my head the Kale was Asterales. Don't know how it got there.
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Does anyone else hate the "improved" taxonomy hierarchy? Now there's superorders and subfamilies and infraclasses and whetever else there is. When I was in Africa I was partnered up with 5 field biologists, and we got to talking about that. They hate it as well.
 
Don't like it but it ain't my biz. I do hate my occasional brain farts though.
 
this thread reminds me that I pulled a tube of non-gmo, wholly organic veggie breakfast sausage from the freezer last night. It was all vegan ingredients processed by the elk :)
 
I just made the mistake of trying to eat Bob Evan's breakfast sausage. The animals they ground up must have eaten nothing but salt.
 
MuseChaser said:
I just made the mistake of trying to eat Bob Evan's breakfast sausage. The animals they ground up must have eaten nothing but salt.
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Ah, that brings back a few memories. I used to really dig Bob Evans. It used to be a final stop on the way to the airport years ago in Michigan. Not sure there’s many of them south of the Mason Dixon.
 
I served a mess of veggie sausage patties I got at Costco for New Years. I doubt anyone would mistake them for real meat, but they were savory and salty, and done up in the air fryer they had a nice crisp texture. They were all gone at the end of the party, and I didn't hear any complaints. I will happily serve those again.

The years was really good. I made German pancakes, scrambled eggs, and the above mentioned sausages. I had three kinds syrup including a home made fruit syrup which was excellent. A pal brought a fruit salad, and we had lots of yummies for dessert including a big cheesecake. We do brunch every New Years, but I felt this one was a real standout. And I'll make those German pancakes again in a heartbeat. They're really easy and boy are they good.
 
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