Beyond Burger 2.0

steingar said:
Ryan, this is simple nonsense. Meat is very calorie dense. if you eat it all the time you get lots and lots of calories. You need lots and lots of activity to burn off all those calories, and most people don't get it. Meat by itself doesn't cause health problems, but it's caloric load contributes to them. Excess calories causes obesity, which affects an obscene number of Americans. Obesity can contribute to all the health problems you mentioned.

The nice thing about plant protein is it isn't as calorically dense as meat, unless you're eating one of the more recent veggie burger examples, which you shouldn't do all the time. Yes, you can get fat even if you don't eat meat, I've known some fat vegetarians. But not eating meat makes it far easier to stay svelte and healthy. I've known exactly zero fat vegans.
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Here is the thing, forget the "meat" argument for a second - fine, take eggs, for example. Like meat, they are very calorie dense. But, you can't absorb all of those calories in a form where they must be burned off. You can absorb some of them of course. Remember that protein (and fat) has to be broken in to aminos, then carbohydrates, to sugars, and finally to glucose before it can be used for either energy or fat formation. So the process to get there is inefficient and a lot is used up on the way. Starches? They are nearly already there, so you will essentially absorb all of those calories.

I can eat 4,000 calories a day of protein and not get fat. Half of that in starches has me gaining weight.
 
Sac Arrow said:
Here is the thing, forget the "meat" argument for a second - fine, take eggs, for example. Like meat, they are very calorie dense. But, you can't absorb all of those calories in a form where they must be burned off. You can absorb some of them of course. Remember that protein (and fat) has to be broken in to aminos, then carbohydrates, to sugars, and finally to glucose before it can be used for either energy or fat formation. So the process to get there is inefficient and a lot is used up on the way. Starches? They are nearly already there, so you will essentially absorb all of those calories.

I can eat 4,000 calories a day of protein and not get fat. Half of that in starches has me gaining weight.
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I am sorry, but this diatribe exhibits a complete ignorance of digestive physiology. It is true that simple sugars can be used the most directly for energy, which is why you can get a sugar high. But calories are calories, and if you ingest too much they're going to get converted to adipose tissue. Your body can use all this stuff and knows how to convert most of these things to the things it needs when it needs them.

And yes, a protein rich diet doesn't get converted into fat, though I confess I've no idea how that works. But a diet that rich in protein is expensive, inefficient, and can't be good for your kidneys. Here's the rub. If I can maintain my weight with 1000 calories of starch and the 20 grams of protein I need every day, that's what I'm going to do. A balanced diet with strict potion control will maintain the weight, even of a mutant like you.
 
steingar said:
I am sorry, but this diatribe exhibits a complete ignorance of digestive physiology. It is true that simple sugars can be used the most directly for energy, which is why you can get a sugar high. But calories are calories, and if you ingest too much they're going to get converted to adipose tissue. Your body can use all this stuff and knows how to convert most of these things to the things it needs when it needs them.

And yes, a protein rich diet doesn't get converted into fat, though I confess I've no idea how that works. But a diet that rich in protein is expensive, inefficient, and can't be good for your kidneys. Here's the rub. If I can maintain my weight with 1000 calories of starch and the 20 grams of protein I need every day, that's what I'm going to do. A balanced diet with strict potion control will maintain the weight, even of a mutant like you.
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Granted, I am not a digestive physiologist, but, I pulled the diatribe out of a nutritional textbook, not my arse.
 
steingar said:
Yes, but very few people eat lean sirloin or chicken breasts without adding lots and lots of calories. Please stop telling me that none of this matters. There are a lot more skinny vegetarians by per capita than there are skinny non vegetarians. If you were correct than vegans wouldn't be expected to have better health than non vegans, which they do.
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You’re further proving my point. It’s not the meat itself that’s causing the weight gain, it’s added substances and processes by which they cook it. So, instead of pushing this argument that if someone wants to lose weight than they must cut animal proteins out of their diet (which is totally untrue) than begin looking at the way people are consuming the foods they do.

I know plenty of vegetarians, in fact, the Christian university that I attend pushes the vegetarian diet, but you know what? A good majority of them are still overweight, because they eat lots of starches and processed meat substitutes, most of which are just as calorically dense as their meat counterparts. Vegetarians have a lower obesity rate not because they don’t eat meat, but because they’re more likely to live a healthier lifestyle overall. It’s safe to say I know just as many meat eaters who are healthier (at least by appearance) than many of the self proclaimed vegan and vegetarians.
 
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Ryanb said:
You’re further proving my point. It’s not the meat itself that’s causing the weight gain, it’s added substances and processes by which they cook it. So, instead of pushing this argument that if someone wants to lose weight than they must cut animal proteins out of their diet (which is totally untrue) than begin looking at the way people are consuming the foods they do.

I know plenty of vegetarians, in fact, the Christian university that I attend pushes the vegetarian diet, but you know what? A good majority of them are still overweight, because they eat lots of starches and processed meat substitutes, most of which are just as calorically dense as their meat counterparts. Vegetarians have a lower obesity rate not because they don’t eat meat, but because they’re more likely to live a healthier lifestyle overall. It’s safe to say I know just as many meat eaters who are healthier (at least by appearance) than many of the self proclaimed vegan and vegetarians.
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I suspect very strongly that the overweight vegetarians you know still ingest a lot of animals fats in the form of dairy and eggs. It's the biggest difference between a vegetarian and a vegan. Like I sad, I've not seen too many fat vegans.
 
steingar said:
I suspect very strongly that the overweight vegetarians you know still ingest a lot of animals fats in the form of dairy and eggs. It's the biggest difference between a vegetarian and a vegan. Like I sad, I've not seen too many fat vegans.
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Examples of calorie-dense plant-based foods:

- non-milk chocolate
- French fries
- potato chips
- bread
- peanut-butter
- jam
- coconut-milk latte
- (some kinds of) cake and muffins
- margarine
- deep-fried somosas
- deep-fried banana
- vegetable spring rolls
- non-gelatin jujubes or gummies (like Maynard's)

OK, you get the point. (I have a vegan daughter, and she loves most of these). Eating vegan may buy you good karma, but if you live in a bigger city with lots of vegan restaurants and cafés, it won't make you thinner.

My Ottawa neighbourhood alone has three (count 'em) vegan bakeries within 20-min walk, and most of the selections have as much sugar and fat as the lacto-ovo alternatives, if not more. ☺️
 
steingar said:
I suspect very strongly that the overweight vegetarians you know still ingest a lot of animals fats in the form of dairy and eggs. It's the biggest difference between a vegetarian and a vegan. Like I sad, I've not seen too many fat vegans.
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It's amusing that people here will argue with a respected biochemist here about biochemistry.
 
It has been confirmed by a respected geneticist that I am a mutant.
 
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