Best way to get into airlines?

byrdman said:
check out the Marine Corp, the only branch who will guarantee you a flying position
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How can they do that? I always thought it was a risk of joining -- you may not get to fly but still be stuck for your req'd term of service.
 
Immelman said:
At the regional level most airlines want 100 hrs multi engine time. With the *current* state of hiring, if an applicant had less I think they'd have a fair shot since there is a shortage of new ATP rated people to take the entry level jobs. Personally, I got hired at my first regional gig with 25 hours multi engine time.
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And I would point out another thing. Just because an airline advertises that you need 100 MEL, doesn't mean they won't take you. I got on with a single pilot 135 gig flying a PA-31 with 30 hours MEL, when they were advertising 100.
 
Irish_Armada said:
How can they do that? I always thought it was a risk of joining -- you may not get to fly but still be stuck for your req'd term of service.
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It would be hard to get people to join if that's the case. Then again, maybe there's an oversupply of people willing to take that risk.
 
dans2992 said:
It would be hard to get people to join if that's the case. Then again, maybe there's an oversupply of people willing to take that risk.
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I don't know about recently, but job guaranties used to be worthless. "Needs of the Service" is a trump card in your contract.
 
shyampatel94 said:
So don't you guys think that buying an old multi engine would take a lot of maintenance cost? I'm thinking of getting my instrument, commercial, and then add on multi with commercial. And then my CFI, CFII, and MEI and train on the Multi to get some hours? Or get contract pilot jobs? I feel like it is a lot of money to buy a twin that won't be a plane. What is y'alls thoughts about this?
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If you do the same thing as all of the other people struggling to get a pilot job... You'll struggle to get a pilot job.

I know of two cases in my circle of friends where some relatively young pilots (30-35) are flying heavies internationally for major airlines (and making the big bucks associated with those higher-level jobs). Neither one did a particularly traditional method.

The more traditional of the two went:
PP-ASEL
PP-AMEL
Instrument in the multi (so he was logging Multi PIC for the entire instrument rating)
Comm-AMEL
Comm-ASEL
CFI
CFII
MEI

Because of the time spent logging multi PIC during instrument training as well as the ability to fly the multi with friends and split costs early on, by the time he got his MEI he had enough multi hours and time in type that he was able to instruct in the twin. Thus, he arrived at 1500 hours total and 500 hours multi at about the same time, and the airlines picked him up in a heartbeat.

The very much less traditional one:
(insert the same path everyone else takes here - PP-ASEL all the way through CFII/MEI) and then...
Flight Engineer-Turbojet.

Yeah. Nobody else knew why he did that either... But he very quickly got a job for a foreign airline as a DC-10 FE/SO. After a year or so in that gig, he got moved up into the right seat, and eventually became the youngest pilot typed on the -10 (not sure how long that lasted).

Fast forward a couple more years, and he wants to have a job based in the US. With a couple thousand hours of heavy jet time under his belt, he also got snapped right up and is doing very well for himself.
 
words of wisdom from my father: if you are offered a job by the regionals, take it. he opted to continue flight instructing because he was the chief flight instructor and making decent money. he wouldve taken a large paycut to go for the regionals. he tells me to just suck it up and take the job. the faster you get into the regionals, the higher seniority you will likely be and faster you will get on with a major airline. he didnt get hired by northwest (now delta) until he was 32.hes 52 now and flies the 767 400. but still pretty low in seniority
 
Henning said:
I don't know about recently, but job guaranties used to be worthless. "Needs of the Service" is a trump card in your contract.
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It's legit. You apply/test/phys and if qualified, you get a contract to attend flight training. If you fail any of those three things, you have no commitment to the Corps. If you wash out of flight school, you still owe your 4 year contract (although, I've seen plenty of cases where the Corps just cuts your commitment and releases you from that point). If you earn your wings, you now owe a 6 year commitment.
 
What do you guys think about the ATP flight school 90 day fast track? I have heard a lot of negative things about this school but I feel like it would work for me? I am a fast learner and get get everything down quickly. The reason I would so this is so I can get all my ratings quickly and start building multi engine time. It says you'll graduate with 100 multi time. What are your thoughts on this?
 
I think ATP is an excellent way to spend a lot of money. For the money you spend on them you could still buy your twin and have a bunch left over for gas. And you can always sell the twin later.
 
dans2992 said:
So why is it that airlines value multi time so much more than single time?

It doesn't seem to make a lot of sense... Performance wise singles can be just as fast/complex as twins.
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Exactly. I wouldn't give any consideration to Part 23/91 ME experience. Airlines use Part 25 transport aircraft and the thinking is totally different for those. There's a lot of posibility for learning "bad habits", in my opinion, plunking around in light twins. Instrument flying, on the other hand, takes the same type of thinking at all levels. I'd rather train a new-hire in a Part 25 aircraft from scratch--just the bare minimum time it took to get a ME rating and not a minute more. In fact, I've done just that.

dtuuri
 
Jeff Oslick said:
Isn't the pilot commitment 12 years now in the AF? Not knocking that path, but with that commitment period, and a big uncertainty given the current funding climate for the military for how much actual flight time you'll get in those 12 years, I'm not convinced it is the optimal path for getting to the majors.

Henning's got a unique take on it. Another path is to become a real expert at training folks in various GA avionics, and/or other specialized training.
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It's 10 years after pilot training. So, at least 11. If you fly fighters you can only count on about 150-160 a year on your non-deployed years. Heavy guys still rack up the hours.
 
Anymouse said:
I think ATP is an excellent way to spend a lot of money. For the money you spend on them you could still buy your twin and have a bunch left over for gas. And you can always sell the twin later.
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The reason I am thinking about ATP is because I have already spent a lot of money on my PPL due to bad instructors and airplane availability. I like the fact that this program is 90 days and you get everything. After I get all my ratings I will be looking for buy an old plane to start training other students and building hours. This is the main reason I am considering this. I am also a college student so it is hard for me to do my training during the school semesters and if I did ATP I could get it done in one summer.
 
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Seek therapy! Or, rack up as much heavy, multi, tailwheel, turbine, IMC, PIC, night time possible while completing advanced degree in astro-physics. Then, while working for peanuts for ten or so years, manage to pay down your student debt. By the time you're in your mid forties, you'll join the middle class, if you're not over-laden with debt. Don't marry a flight attendant.

All kidding aside, your timing is good. And, notwithstanding the recent 1500 hr requirement, efforts are afoot to make all airliners pilotless, all cockpits look the same, and, in the mean time, discourage current pilots from touching the controls or disabling any of the automation. But darn if those uniforms aren't nice!
 
shyampatel94 said:
The reason I am thinking about ATP is because I have already spent a lot of money on my PPL due to bad instructors and airplane availability. I like the fact that this program is 90 days and you get everything. After I get all my ratings I will be looking for buy an old plane to start training other students and building hours. This is the main reason I am considering this. I am also a college student so it is hard for me to do my training during the school semesters and if I did ATP I could get it done in one summer.
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You need your PPL and 100hrs TT for the 90 day fast track at ATP.
The zero-hour fast track is 150 days.
 
mtuomi said:
You need your PPL and 100hrs TT for the 90 day fast track at ATP.
The zero-hour fast track is 150 days.
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Yes I know, I will have the requirements by this coming summer.
 
shyampatel94 said:
50k. With 100hr multi, 20hr single, and 50 hr sim. With all the ratings from instrument to CFI,CFII! And MEI.
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You you can do it for considerably less in the same or less time in your own plane by hiring a dedicated CFI on a monthly salary to work with just you.
 
Henning said:
You you can do it for considerably less in the same or less time in your own plane by hiring a dedicated CFI on a monthly salary to work with just you.
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The problem I see in that is buying a plane. Like the maintenance and fuel. I feel like it will end up just costing a lot more. With the ATP program I can get all my ratings and then buy a plane to build hours and train other students. I would be getting the aircraft rent and all of instructor fees.
 
shyampatel94 said:
The problem I see in that is buying a plane. Like the maintenance and fuel. I feel like it will end up just costing a lot more. With the ATP program I can get all my ratings and then buy a plane to build hours and train other students. I would be getting the aircraft rent and all of instructor fees.
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You still need 1250hrs after that though. You're paying over $400hr for airplane and instructor time even figuring in the SE time, if you add in the sim time your average hourly is $295. I figure $230 hr to operate my 310 and I haven't spent close to that.
 
shyampatel94 said:
What do you guys think about the ATP flight school 90 day fast track? I have heard a lot of negative things about this school but I feel like it would work for me? I am a fast learner and get get everything down quickly. The reason I would so this is so I can get all my ratings quickly and start building multi engine time. It says you'll graduate with 100 multi time. What are your thoughts on this?
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I think it's a great way to light some $100 bills on fire.
Henning said:
You you can do it for considerably less in the same or less time in your own plane by hiring a dedicated CFI on a monthly salary to work with just you.
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:yes: I did my IR, CPL and CFI in an airplane that I own. Not paying for rentals is worth it. I can sell my airplane (but I wouldn't) and break-even if not make a little money on it. IR was the most expensive, but still less than a PPL AND I used a better airplane than I could rent. CPL was $2000 or so and the CFI ended up costing me a couple hundred, plus fuel. I don't see why you'd prolong buying an airplane if you can afford it especially if you plan to instruct in it.
 
Z06_Mir said:
I think it's a great way to light some $100 bills on fire.


:yes: I did my IR, CPL and CFI in an airplane that I own. Not paying for rentals is worth it. I can sell my airplane (but I wouldn't) and break-even if not make a little money on it. IR was the most expensive, but still less than a PPL AND I used a better airplane than I could rent. CPL was $2000 or so and the CFI ended up costing me a couple hundred, plus fuel. I don't see why you'd prolong buying an airplane if you can afford it especially if you plan to instruct in it.
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You guys have a good point. Would it be better to buy a light multi engine or a single for now?
 
Z06_Mir said:
I think it's a great way to light some $100 bills on fire.


:yes: I did my IR, CPL and CFI in an airplane that I own. Not paying for rentals is worth it. I can sell my airplane (but I wouldn't) and break-even if not make a little money on it. IR was the most expensive, but still less than a PPL AND I used a better airplane than I could rent. CPL was $2000 or so and the CFI ended up costing me a couple hundred, plus fuel. I don't see why you'd prolong buying an airplane if you can afford it especially if you plan to instruct in it.
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What plane do you own?
 
shyampatel94 said:
You guys have a good point. Would it be better to buy a light multi engine or a single for now?
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You're going to buy one to last you the duration, or you're going to waste money. The question then becomes which will provide you the greatest opportunity in both the near and long term. Will you be better off doing mostly primary training in a simple single, commercial training in a more expensive complex single and then buying the couple hundred hours of multi time you'll need to be competitive, or selling multi ratings and time building to all those guys who need to get 200 hrs of multi time and ending up with 1400hrs of multi time walking into your interviews?
 
Henning said:
You're going to buy one to last you the duration, or you're going to waste money. The question then becomes which will provide you the greatest opportunity in both the near and long term. Will you be better off doing mostly primary training in a simple single, commercial training in a more expensive complex single and then buying the couple hundred hours of multi time you'll need to be competitive, or selling multi ratings and time building to all those guys who need to get 200 hrs of multi time and ending up with 1400hrs of multi time walking into your interviews?
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How would I do that if I go this route? Like an example of a plane to buy? I have been looking to buy a cirrus for a while now. Or would a different plane be better?
 
shyampatel94 said:
How would I do that if I go this route? Like an example of a plane to buy? I have been looking to buy a cirrus for a while now. Or would a different plane be better?
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A Cirrus will only allow you to do primary and instrument training (you need a retract to do commercial unless they do a split ride or initial commercial Multi) and you will be charging at least twice the amount of the competition, that means your market will be very limited, mostly to those who are looking at buying a Cirrus, and for those the dealers make a pretty attractive offer. On top of that, you don't get as much time because they have solo time which is going to cause you some pretty steep insurance rates. An Arrow for a single would be the best option.
 
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if you have the money to buy a cirrus at 18, I would suggest you invest it wisely and live in a box under a bridge for the next 30 years. At the end of that time both your financial position and your box-living lifestyle will be better than pursuing a career flying airplanes.
 
Henning said:
A Cirrus will only allow you to do primary and instrument training (you need a retract to do commercial unless they do a split ride or initial commercial Multi) and you will be charging at least twice the amount of the competition, that means your market will be very limited, mostly to those who are looking at buying a Cirrus, and for those the dealers make a pretty attractive offer. On top of that, you don't get as much time because they have solo time which is going to cause you some pretty steep insurance rates. An Arrow for a single would be the best option.
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After I would get my commercial and instrument in a single how would I build multi time?
 
shyampatel94 said:
After I would get my commercial and instrument in a single how would I build multi time?
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Good question, you either rent or buy a twin. Cirrus doesn't make one. If you are going to buy a twin to do instruction in, buy it before you do your instrument. You want to have a couple hundred hours in it before you try getting insurance that allows you to instruct in it otherwise you'll be looking at 7-9 times the cost.
 
byrdman said:
If you considering the military route check out the Marine Corp, the only branch who will guarantee you a flying position, talk to your local OSO, they can provide you with details.
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I know several guys who went straight into OCS in the Air Force on contract for flight school. If you go ROTC or academy there's no flight slot guarantee. It's based on class standing. Of course you have guaranteed Army WOFT and spend your entire career in the cockpit with no non operational assignments.
 
JHW said:
if you have the money to buy a cirrus at 18, I would suggest you invest it wisely and live in a box under a bridge for the next 30 years. At the end of that time both your financial position and your box-living lifestyle will be better than pursuing a career flying airplanes.
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tooweaktofollowdreams.jpg
 
shyampatel94 said:
You guys have a good point. Would it be better to buy a light multi engine or a single for now?
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Probably it would be better to finish your PPL first and then take a deep breath and think what do you really want to do with it. If you really want to own a plane, buy a 152 to finish your PPL in.

You only recently started taking lessons, yet so far you've started about 20 threads about what to buy and if a Cirrus or a Diamond or a twin would be the right plane to buy, and how you can get your 1500 hours and your ratings as soon as possible etc.

Clearly you have a passion for flying, that is great, but you really need to take your time, concentrate on the training for now, and think well ahead on what you really need to achieve your goals.

Also, thinking ahead and making rational decisions is something you really need if you want to pursue a career in aviation. "I want everything, yesterday"-attitude isn't what the airlines want from the candidates.

For example, buying a Cirrus would be a silly thing to do for your goals. You cannot do your commercial on it, providing training in it is a small market and to be bluntly honest, I don't see an average Cirrus buyer being happy with a recently certified zero-experience 19-year old instructor.
For instructing, you need to be marketable. Its not just getting your ratings and expecting customers to jump in and fly with you, there are loads of CFI/CFII's in the market.

I don't want to discourage you, I hope you will pursue your dreams, but seriously, take some time and have a realistic plan.
 
mtuomi said:
Probably it would be better to finish your PPL first and then take a deep breath and think what do you really want to do with it. If you really want to own a plane, buy a 152 to finish your PPL in.

You only recently started taking lessons, yet so far you've started about 20 threads about what to buy and if a Cirrus or a Diamond or a twin would be the right plane to buy, and how you can get your 1500 hours and your ratings as soon as possible etc.

Clearly you have a passion for flying, that is great, but you really need to take your time, concentrate on the training for now, and think well ahead on what you really need to achieve your goals.

Also, thinking ahead and making rational decisions is something you really need if you want to pursue a career in aviation. "I want everything, yesterday"-attitude isn't what the airlines want from the candidates.

For example, buying a Cirrus would be a silly thing to do for your goals. You cannot do your commercial on it, providing training in it is a small market and to be bluntly honest, I don't see an average Cirrus buyer being happy with a recently certified zero-experience 19-year old instructor.
For instructing, you need to be marketable. Its not just getting your ratings and expecting customers to jump in and fly with you, there are loads of CFI/CFII's in the market.

I don't want to discourage you, I hope you will pursue your dreams, but seriously, take some time and have a realistic plan.
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I totally understand and respect what you have to say. I will definitely decide what my realistic goals are once I get my PPL. I just really want to pursue an aviation career. I am getting really close to finishing my PPL also! So I am just looking into the future. But thank you for what you had to say! I really do respect it.
 
Muttley said:
Shyam -

I can really appreciate your goals and it seems you're asking the right questions. However you are getting quite a lot of disparate advice, so listen to everyone and keep your own counsel.

I was in your position almost exactly 4 years ago. Just under three years after my first lesson I started getting paid to fly; sitting up front in a turbine powered aircraft with less than 900 hrs and no CFI ratings. (I only have Comm, Instrument, Multi.) Fast forward another year and I'm salaried in a Corporate owned King Air 350, two trips to SimCom and Flight Safety under my belt and an SIC type rating. By the way, I'm also debt free and currently making more money than a 10 year F.O. in the airlines. Once I hit 1500 hrs the company will pay for my combined Type Rating and ATP in the King Air.

I did this by paying cash for all of my training, renting the cheapest airplanes I could find to build time, hanging around three different airports, getting to know people and offering to fly with them until I was skilled enough to realistically offer my services as a paid contract pilot/co-pilot. Started flying for guys in piston singles, which led to turbine singles, which led to turbine multi....you can see the logical progression.

This business is all about networking, reputation and work ethic. Be nice, get to know everyone you can, listen more than you talk and take every opportunity to do any aviation related odd-job you can. When you do get the occasional odd job, do it better than the next guy and you'll get more jobs.

Right now, when I'm hanging around the airport, I feel like the luckiest guy alive while inside I'm laughing at the airline hopefuls paying off their 6-digit loans by giving endless discovery flights in between trips to the grocery store for Ramen Noodles. But I am always really nice to them and happily give them our leftover catering and always seek one out if I hear of a right-seat trip opening. Oddly though...rarely do those guys take me up on the right seat gig because they feel it's beneath them to sit up front in a Pilatus because it's not a shiny jet...go figure.

Now go out to the airport, take your books to study, meet everyone you can and learn something new everyday.
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Word!!:rockon:
 
nailed it in these sentences. there are days where i just hang out at the airport and make contacts with people and help me build time. the aviation community is really tight knit. get to know everyone
Muttley said:
This business is all about networking, reputation and work ethic. Be nice, get to know everyone you can, listen more than you talk and take every opportunity to do any aviation related odd-job you can. When you do get the occasional odd job, do it better than the next guy and you'll get more
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