Best Beginner Plane for My Mission

[steingar]

I’ve never stashed for an engine and never will. Just money sting around that someone can sue you for. Aircraft needs an overhaul it’s a squawk like any other.

I would add to the chorus of telling the OP to rent while learning. Complex aircraft add time to the learning process and are expensive for a student to insure. Moreover, depending on where the OP is, his mission might be a pipe dream. Takes a lot of flexibility to travel VFR. Still takes some to travel IFR.

And of course his budget would afford a pretty nice Mooney, though I admit to some bias in this regard.

 

[Salty]

I’ve never stashed for an engine and never will. Just money sting around that someone can sue you for. Aircraft needs an overhaul it’s a squawk like any other.

I would add to the chorus of telling the OP to rent while learning. Complex aircraft add time to the learning process and are expensive for a student to insure. Moreover, depending on where the OP is, his mission might be a pipe dream. Takes a lot of flexibility to travel VFR. Still takes some to travel IFR.

And of course his budget would afford a pretty nice Mooney, though I admit to some bias in this regard.

Aren't you one of the folks that freak out when someone suggests financing an aircraft? That attitude and this one don't really go together.

 

[steingar]

Aren't you one of the folks that freak out when someone suggests financing an aircraft? That attitude and this one don't really go together.

I don’t freak out. I think it a bad idea to borrow to pay for a toy.

 

[Salty]

I don’t freak out. I think it a bad idea to borrow to pay for a toy.

But it’s also a bad idea to have enough set aside for inevitable maintenance? The two don’t mesh.

 

[Blake Julian]

An example of what chemgeek is saying, me and my partner charge ourselves $65/hr dry rate when we use the plane. After 5 years we have $20k for engine reserve, with another 400 hours til we get to TBO. All other expenses are out of pocket.

Ok I’m with y’all now! That definitely makes sense to basically rent it from yourself but it’s actually a savings for OH. That’s a smart idea.

 

[Blake Julian]

I’m not one to finance toys or really anything for that matter. Almost all my purchases I’ve ever made under $100k have been cash. Now that being said I have a $100k upfront budget to get this started including my PPL and everything. I’ve been told to rent different planes until I find one that suites me. I’ve also been told complex raises insurance. So I’m located in BFE North Central Arkansas. The only plane the local airport has is a 172. Therefore I’d have to drive 2-3 hours to say Springfield, MO or somewhere to get a few hours in a different plane. Hard to get time when there’s only 1 plane to rent around here. The airport with the plane also closes at 5pm and I get off at 4. So I guess I should ask more questions since I have no idea how that’ll work. Since it’s a 30 minute drive there.

 

[Sinistar]

You sound good to go on the medical...but make sure to read but do not complete the MedExpress until ready.

If you are serious about owning, you then need to get serious about the hangar! If you already have that solved, then disregard. Otherwise get on every list at every nearby airport you can. Often waiting lists are years long.

The defacto way to short circuit the hangar waiting list is to buy the plane and try get the hangar with it. Since you will be looking for hangars, start hanging around the airport on Saturday mornings. Go to the EAA meeting. You might find someone older who doesn't fly much may want to sell you their plane. It might be a good deal. It might not. Still get the pre-buy inspection by any mechanic other than the sellers.

Many of the pipers have the spar AD to consider. But now many of the Cessna's have the strut inspection as well. And the strutless Cessna's have spar inspections as well. The fleet is getting old.

Expect your first annual to hurt a bit. Think $3000...$7000 or so for your budget purposes. Then back to the numbers you had.

Low wings look cooler (except the retract Cardinal and 210's). We each like having a door and shade thus the 182. I'm told the low wings are a bit easier to land in crosswinds but never flown one so maybe that is bogus.

Many models allow car gas (MOGAS) which can save you some $$$. But it needs to be ethanol free premium so not as much savings these days.

 

[Sinistar]

The plan is to do as much as possible myself. It’ll be me doing my hobby (turning wrenches) along with learning something new. The only thing I don’t know much about is wiring so avionics would be included in that. I know like 12v,24v, I can make things 36volts but that’s about it lol. I take pride in my work and I don’t trust to many people working on my stuff. I’m great with logging everything too.

Just want to make sure you understand the maintenance rules regarding these airplanes? The PA28's and Cessna 172's are certificated. That means you can do oil changes, swap out a battery, change tires and about 20 other "simple" things. But something as simple as swapping out a battery may require a new Weight & Balance (WB) form that can only be signed by someone with IA (inspection authorization). As you move into more complex maintenance, annuals, etc you will have to have that individual involved. This is where things can take different routes.

If you find a large shop to do your maintenance or annuals they may not let you do any work! You drop the plane and logs off. Later you get a call with the estimated repairs costs. Some will be mandatory. They do the work. You show up with money. The hand you signed off logs. Hopefully everyone is still happy. Repeat each year.

On the other end, you might find a mechanic with IA that prefers to sit back and let you do the work. But they still have to sign it. Sounds like you want this path. So along with the hunt for a hangar and a plane, might as well start searching for mechanics to do your pre-buy and also see if they will let you do most of the work.

Here is another quirk. Lets say you buy a plane either to start your training or part way through. And lets say you need to do an oil change. But lets say you don't have your PPL yet. I don't believe you can properly return it to service (a valid log in your logbook). I think you need to have a valid pilots license or IA to "return it to service". So you still might need a mechanic for you plane while training.

ANother comment on your timeframe. You've basically given yourself 4 months from today to start....finish. Doable. But if you often have low overcast wx between now and then it can put a crimp on the training. If it takes you another month to get started, such a finding your own plane that date will be even hard to hit. So don't give up if it takes longer, actually just expect it to take longer. Aviation moves at its own pace and if you even slightly push it somehow violates newtons laws and pushes even harder.

 

[pfarber]

The plan is to do as much as possible myself. It’ll be me doing my hobby (turning wrenches) along with learning something new. The only thing I don’t know much about is wiring so avionics would be included in that. I know like 12v,24v, I can make things 36volts but that’s about it lol. I take pride in my work and I don’t trust to many people working on my stuff. I’m great with logging everything too.

If you buy a certificated AC then you will be doing none of that. Even A&P MX cannot touch avionics or instruments save for install/remove them and harness repairs. Can't even refill the fluid in a mag compass.

An owner operator can do preventative maintenance, FAR 43 appendix A subpart C, and you can save some money doing those items yourself, but if something breaks, its most likely not preventative maintenance at the point, but actual maintenance.

 

[Blake Julian]

Thanks everyone. I’m really learning more than I thought already

 

[FORANE]

Ok so what plane would suggest?

RV9a
Super easy to fly.
Inexpensive to maintain.
Goes faster than the 172 or similar so you can go to those 20 states without getting a decubitus in the process.

 

[Blake Julian]

RV9a
Super easy to fly.
Inexpensive to maintain.
Goes faster than the 172 or similar so you can go to those 20 states without getting a decubitus in the process.

What’s the load weight on it? Like can I fit 2+ people and like a weekend bag? Wait is that an experimental aircraft?

 

[Sinistar]

RV9a is a experimental plane. They are awesome!

If you build it yourself you can even do all of the maintenance. Once the original builder sells it I think you still need a IA to sign off the work and annuals. A experimental builder should be along shortly to clarify. Hopefully the mx rules (after first sale) are a bit more lax than the certificated rules.

Sorry for all the rules Blake.

 

[FORANE]

RV9a is a experimental plane. They are awesome!

If you build it yourself you can even do all of the maintenance. Once the original builder sells it I think you still need a IA to sign off the work and annuals. A experimental builder should be along shortly to clarify. Hopefully the mx rules (after first sale) are a bit more lax than the certificated rules.

Sorry for all the rules Blake.

Yes, it's experimental. Many consider that a good thing unless you have a reason for needing certified.
You, or anyone else, may do all maintenance. An IA is not required for signing annual; an A&P or the original builder is required for that.

What’s the load weight on it? Like can I fit 2+ people and like a weekend bag? Wait is that an experimental aircraft?

2 people plus 75 lbs baggage was what ours carried.

 

[Blake Julian]

I may go that route but I can’t find on RVs website if it comes with engine or not. I also looked at the RV10 on there. It’s a little bit more but if it comes with engine it’ll still be under my $70k aircraft purchase budget. There around a year out so that would give me time to build up some hours before I would have to have insurance too. I also like the Sling TSI but that’s quite a bit more.

 

[FORANE]

I may go that route but I can’t find on RVs website if it comes with engine or not. I also looked at the RV10 on there. It’s a little bit more but if it comes with engine it’ll still be under my $70k aircraft purchase budget. There around a year out so that would give me time to build up some hours before I would have to have insurance too. I also like the Sling TSI but that’s quite a bit more.

The 10 will be 200k plus. If you were pricing the kits, they do not come with motor or avionics.
Unless you have a desire to build, don't do it. If you just want to fly, find one already built.

 

[Blake Julian]

That’s what thought but experimental has less restrictions correct?

 

[WDD]

M2C - get your 3rd class medical, learn to fly (which will take you longer than January 2022), fly 100 hours, and then you'll know what kind of plane you'll want. You don't know now.

 

[idahoflier]

I would never encourage anyone to buy an aircraft before getting a license. You don't know what you don't know at this point and there isn't much sense in jumping off the ownership cliff...

But, if you really do live in BFE and can't make the local FBO work for training, have you identified a CFI to train you? If so, is that CFI available after 5:00 p.m.? Have you identified a mechanic to service your aircraft? There are a few aircraft in your price range, but any C172 is likely going to be a bit old and/or require maintenance. Your best value that may work is an older Cherokee 140 or a C150, between those I would go the Cherokee 140 route if it was me. Another option, which I would do if I was in your position is find a nice RV-12. An RV-12 would be much newer than any Cessna or Piper and you could legally do all the maintenance and it would probably be easier to resell if you decide to do that. You would still need to find an A&P to do the yearly condition inspection.

All that said, finding a suitable aircraft in your price range that is reasonably local is probably a tall order too. So you will need to consider how you plan on traveling to find that aircraft and how to get it home once you do. This is just skimming the surface of everything you need to consider...

Anyway, good luck!

 

[Lachlan]

Does that original budget for the first year include any go-go joose? Gas ain't free. Or CFI time? Or DPE fees? Sales tax, if applicable? Flying can be pretty affordable, but the OP went from looking at an affordable way to start off in aviation to full throttle before he got to the runup area.

 

[Blake Julian]

I would never encourage anyone to buy an aircraft before getting a license. You don't know what you don't know at this point and there isn't much sense in jumping off the ownership cliff...

But, if you really do live in BFE and can't make the local FBO work for training, have you identified a CFI to train you? If so, is that CFI available after 5:00 p.m.? Have you identified a mechanic to service your aircraft? There are a few aircraft in your price range, but any C172 is likely going to be a bit old and/or require maintenance. Your best value that may work is an older Cherokee 140 or a C150, between those I would go the Cherokee 140 route if it was me. Another option, which I would do if I was in your position is find a nice RV-12. An RV-12 would be much newer than any Cessna or Piper and you could legally do all the maintenance and it would probably be easier to resell if you decide to do that. You would still need to find an A&P to do the yearly condition inspection.

All that said, finding a suitable aircraft in your price range that is reasonably local is probably a tall order too. So you will need to consider how you plan on traveling to find that aircraft and how to get it home once you do. This is just skimming the surface of everything you need to consider...

Anyway, good luck!

I’m most definitely not going to purchase an aircraft without my PPL. I’m getting numbers and figuring out everything that way when I obtain my PPL I could start the next step into ownership. One of the local airports does have a CFI and he’s suppose to be calling me back this week to discuss details and rates. I’m hoping he can give me somewhat of a discount if I pay a lot upfront or something along those lines as I’m aware it will most likely take more than 40hrs to get my PPL. I’m in Flippin, AR. Down the road from Gastons which I’ve noticed a lot of pilots on here have flown in to.

 

[Blake Julian]

Does that original budget for the first year include any go-go joose? Gas ain't free. Or CFI time? Or DPE fees? Sales tax, if applicable? Flying can be pretty affordable, but the OP went from looking at an affordable way to start off in aviation to full throttle before he got to the runup area.

I have thought about fuel, CFI time, sales tax and DPE fees. Fuel I have at $6gal and I’m I know it’s $4.99 here (so I know I’m high but better be safe than sorry when budgeting and it fluctuates with regions and suppliers, but the rental plane is wet at $145hr, CFI is $45hr, sales tax would vary, and the DPE if I pass the first time is $700 I believe. I have for my PPL atleast $15000. Is that to high or low? I mean I know it depends on the person but on average? I like to plan and crunch numbers before investing in anything to see if I can do it before I get to far into it and can’t afford it.

 

[Blake Julian]

M2C - get your 3rd class medical, learn to fly (which will take you longer than January 2022), fly 100 hours, and then you'll know what kind of plane you'll want. You don't know now.

Y’all are saying wait until I have hours so that’s what I’ll do

 

[Lachlan]

I have thought about fuel, CFI time, sales tax and DPE fees. Fuel I have at $6gal and I’m I know it’s $4.99 here (so I know I’m high but better be safe than sorry when budgeting and it fluctuates with regions and suppliers, but the rental plane is wet at $145hr, CFI is $45hr, sales tax would vary, and the DPE if I pass the first time is $700 I believe. I have for my PPL atleast $15000. Is that to high or low? I mean I know it depends on the person but on average? I like to plan and crunch numbers before investing in anything to see if I can do it before I get to far into it and can’t afford it.

$15 large seems high, but everything is expensive compared to the Before Time. I’m sure you’ll end up just fine. Money makes airplanes fly, and money makes students into pilots. Sounds like you’ve got plenty.

 

[Blake Julian]

$15 large seems high, but everything is expensive compared to the Before Time. I’m sure you’ll end up just fine. Money makes airplanes fly, and money makes students into pilots. Sounds like you’ve got plenty.

I wouldn’t say I have plenty but I enjoy crunching numbers and budgeting so I know what I’m getting into before I get into it. I actually figure it’ll be around $10-12 but I always shoot high

 

[FORANE]

We bought a c-150 to teach my wife to fly in. I made a deal with my cfi partner to train her in exchange for free use of the 150 anytime he wanted to use it. We put a couple hundred hours on it in a couple years ownership. We sold it for the same price we paid when we bought it. Insurance was around $600 annually. We put a couple tires on it, did routine maintenance, and paid for a couple very reasonable annuals. The cost to train her was way less than 15k. I think it was less than 5k. An additional benefit is she was better trained for it.

 

[WDD]

Figure 60 to 70 hours to get ppl.

 

[Blake Julian]

We bought a c-150 to teach my wife to fly in. I made a deal with my cfi partner to train her in exchange for free use of the 150 anytime he wanted to use it. We put a couple hundred hours on it in a couple years ownership. We sold it for the same price we paid when we bought it. Insurance was around $600 annually. We put a couple tires on it, did routine maintenance, and paid for a couple very reasonable annuals. The cost to train her was way less than 15k. I think it was less than 5k. An additional benefit is she was better trained for it.

Cost of renting a plane is where the cost of the PPL goes up I figured on 60hrs of flight time 8,700 is just in plane rental. Not counting CFI rental

 

[Salty]

Cost of renting a plane is where the cost of the PPL goes up I figured on 60hrs of flight time 8,700 is just in plane rental. Not counting CFI rental

As an owner, it’s possible to drop $8700 on a bad mechanical issue without flying a single hour.

 

[WDD]

It will usually always be cheaper to rent than own a plane.

 

[chemgeek]

It will usually always be cheaper to rent than own a plane.

Owning is more about convenience than saving money. It costs about the same to rent as to operate an owned plane. What's usually gets neglected in these cost comparisons is the capital cost of acquiring an aircraft in the first place.

Personally, I think it makes more sense to rent until earning the PPL, by which time you will have a LOT more understanding and perspective about aircraft operation, logistics, and potential ownership. And if one flies a variety of aircraft during training, one can determine preferences for high vs. low wing, etc.

Certainly I had no clue about aircraft ownership and operation when I started. One's eyes can get bigger than their wallet, and expectations of dispatch reliability for travel can be unrealistic. I didn't buy my first plane until completing the PPL. By then I had experienced my share of aircraft repairs, minor failures, and gotchas, as well as had more realistic expectations of utility. Four years later I realized an IFR rating would be necessary if I wanted to travel anywhere in a light plane with a reasonable level of comfort and dispatch reliability.

Like steingar, I don't put away an engine reserve. But I am able to write a check tomorrow to overhaul the engine if that's required. (Did that 10 years ago, hopefully won't need to do that again anytime soon.) I guess that's a reserve in waiting. I'm also ready to write a check if the GNS-430W or some other avionics box fails. (I bet nobody is putting away an avionics reserve, but well-equipped IFR aircraft probably has avionics whose replacement value far exceeds the engine. And those avionics have a limited service and support life.) Those are the kind of things to think about as an owner of an expensive and cranky toy. I'm always amused by the "I'll buy a plane and save money" threads.

 

[Rich Holt]

Ok I’m looking into getting my PPL.

It sounds like you have a seasonal gig. Have you considered a 141 school? If you have the time to make it your 9-5 for a couple of months, it will probably save you some $$. Start date. finish date, scheduled exams for written/practical, dedicated ground school, etc.

I may go that route but I can’t find on RVs website if it comes with engine or not.

Unless you really want to build it yourself (a year at least building for a beginner) try looking at a place like barnstormers for one that is already built.

Figure 60 to 70 hours to get ppl.

Good grief, why?

 

[Blake Julian]

It sounds like you have a seasonal gig. Have you considered a 141 school? If you have the time to make it your 9-5 for a couple of months, it will probably save you some $$. Start date. finish date, scheduled exams for written/practical, dedicated ground school, etc.

Unless you really want to build it yourself (a year at least building for a beginner) try looking at a place like barnstormers for one that is already built.

Good grief, why?

Can’t really make it a 9-5 as we are still opened in the winter just not slammed like the rest of the year. Just closed two weeks around Christmas. I’ll just wait and build hours and go from there when it comes to purchasing an aircraft.

 

[Blake Julian]

Owning is more about convenience than saving money. It costs about the same to rent as to operate an owned plane. What's usually gets neglected in these cost comparisons is the capital cost of acquiring an aircraft in the first place.

Personally, I think it makes more sense to rent until earning the PPL, by which time you will,have a LOT more understanding and perspective about aircraft operation, logistics, and potential ownership. And if one flies a variety of aircraft during training, one can determine preferences for high vs. low wing, etc.

Certainly I had no clue about aircraft ownership and operation when I started. One's eyes can get bigger than their wallet, and expectations of dispatch reliability for travel can be unrealistic. I didn't buy my first plane until completing the PPL. By then I had experienced my share of aircraft repairs, minor failures, and gotchas, as well as had more realistic expectations of utility. Four years later I realized an IFR rating would be necessary if I wanted to travel anywhere in a light plane with a reasonable level of comfort and dispatch reliability.

Like steingar, I don't put away an engine reserve. But I am able to write a check tomorrow to overhaul the engine if that's required. (Did that 10 years ago, hopefully won't need to do that again anytime soon.) I guess that's a reserve in waiting. I'm also ready to write a check if the GNS-430W or some other avionics box fails. (I bet nobody is putting away an avionics reserve, but well-equipped IFR aircraft probably has avionics whose replacement value far exceeds the engine. And those avionics have a limited service and support life.) Those are the kind of things to think about as an owner of an expensive and cranky toy. I'm always amused by the "I'll buy a plane and save money" threads.

Wasn’t really just about saving money but also just wanting to fly when I wanted to fly. I see what everyone is saying and Ill hold off.

 

[Archimago]

"Grumman AA5/AA5B"
I'm a little partial to these

 

[Crashnburn]

Ok I’m looking into getting my PPL. We get slow in the winter at work and I’m wanting to get my PPL by the end of January. That aside my mission would be Cross Country travel as I have friends and family in over 20 states. Getting my PPL has been a dream of mine since I was a kid. I would have got it sooner but building natural gas pipelines across the country hindered any free time. I’ve been looking at C172s and I’m really really liking P28s. My budget for the aircraft is $70,000-$75,000. I don’t want to go over that due to I’m also wanting to hangar it and I know I’m going to have to buy some extras… My flat rate yearly budget I have is $11,800. I shot high on my numbers I know but better be safe than sorry. I have
$3000:Hangar
$1500:Annual
$2300:Insurance
$5000:Maintenance

Am I far off or am I on the right track? What ever is left over on the maintenance will be rolled over into the next year. Little upgrades or updates would also be used out of the maintenance funds. What would be the best aircraft?

Do you need 4 seats? Liberty XLs are economical to operate, and at least as fast as a C172. They are a semi-orphan plane, but there is an active Liberty Owners and Pilots group. Libertys are also designed for minimal inspection and repair time. Even with the Vanguard weight increase, they don't have a tremendous useful load, but enough for my wife, me, and 50 or 60 lbs. of baggage, plus 3 hours cruise, and 1 hour reserve fuel. And, they're in your budget.

 

[Rcmutz]

One of the things the OP should do is compare the total cost of ownership with the cost of renting. For ownership costs include insurance, hangar, annual, and engine reserve. These are the fixed cost before the airplane is flown the first hour. Now plot that against hrs per year adding in fuel cost (hrs flow x gph burn x $5.00 per gallon. Plot on the same graph, the cost of renting for the same hours per year, you will probably see that the lines cross somewhere around 75 hrs per year, depending on hangar and insurance cost. You will see if you are not flying that many hours a year, renting is probably cheaper. But, nothing is better than going out to the airport and having YOUR plane waiting for you! To hell with cost, it’s a hobby!!

 

[Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)]

So @Blake Julian hasnt been on POA since 10/19/21. Curious if there has been any progress.

If he does check back in, be cautious about pre paying for a discount or block time etc. Some people and some organizations go bankrupt or disappear with your money.

If a flight school legitimately goes bankrupt, you are an unsecured creditor and likely get $0 back. With an individual person (aCFI, for example) - prepaying could make them les motivated to be flexible around your schedule etc.

Be cautious prepaying.

 

[Ed Haywood]

M2C - get your 3rd class medical, learn to fly (which will take you longer than January 2022), fly 100 hours, and then you'll know what kind of plane you'll want. You don't know now.

This should probably just be a website autoreply or sticky for this topic.

 

[Country Flier]

Hey @Blake Julian , I have a different suggestion: get a plane "just for now". Now I don't mean getting one before you get your pilots license though (while learning you're gonna bounce some landings...do it in a rental, not your baby). But get a "starter plane" right after you get your pilots license...something like a C150, tomahawk, skipper, AA1B etc. Fly it for a couple of years, build up a ton of hours (which will help lower insurance cost dramatically) learn about ownership, maybe even get your IFR in it, then sell it to get your "forever plane".
Good news is, the little 2-seaters I mentioned are cheap to buy, cheap to fly. Being cheap, its really hard to loose money (at least a lot of money) in the buying and selling...of course we all have our own definition of what's cheap though!
Anyway, just another idea. BTW, I got my PPL in 44 hours, and bought my first plane (a cheap 2 seater) 2 hours later at 46 hours. Owned it for exactly 2 years to the day, then sold it to upgrade. I had over 400 hours when I sold it.