Because I Said So, That's Why

[PPC1052]

Do a lot of people continue to use checklists after they get there PPL?

My "before leaving the house" checklist includes checking my flight bag to make sure I have the check list I created myself for my plane by reading the POH.

 

[wabower]

Learning the flows and repeating them each time is the key element. Running the checklist to be sure you didn't forget anything is what saves your ass when you forget something. Many accidents involve things that a pilot would say "I always do" like checking for "gear down, three green no red." More accurately, these are things that pilots almost always do. 99 out of 100 is an unacceptable score for extending the gear.

Thanks guys. Good to know I would be out of the ordinary, going through a checklist on my own plane.

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks guys. Good to know I would be out of the ordinary, going through a checklist on my own plane.

I suspect you know it, but embarrassment can't be a factor for safety.

If another pilot calls you a wimp for not flying in MVFR, or over the clouds without having the far side in sight, or over personal limits, it can't matter.

It's not hard to find examples of serious accidents from checklist screwups or distracted crews (which checklists are designed to compensate for). Like NWA 255.

Gear-up landings are unfortunately common, but they are seldom fatal. Usually, the only thing hurt is the airplane (and it's even more impossibly expensive if the propeller digs holes in the runway).

 

[Mafoo]

I suspect you know it, but embarrassment can't be a factor for safety.

If another pilot calls you a wimp for not flying in MVFR, or over the clouds without having the far side in sight, or over personal limits, it can't matter.

It's not hard to find examples of serious accidents from checklist screwups or distracted crews (which checklists are designed to compensate for). Like NWA 255.

Gear-up landings are unfortunately common, but they are seldom fatal. Usually, the only thing hurt is the airplane (and it's even more impossibly expensive if the propeller digs holes in the runway).

I hope if this thread has done nothing else, it at least has shown I am going to do what I think is right, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it.

I have changed my opinion about landing if all of GPS has gone down, but only because you and Greg explained to me in a way that causes me to agree that other pilots losing GPS is pretty much a non-event. Not because I was told I was a fool for worrying about it.

If I was the only one at my airport using a checklist, and got made fun of for it, I would just have to be the guy everyone makes fun of.

 

[MAKG1]

I hope if this thread has done nothing else, it at least has shown I am going to do what I think is right, regardless of what anyone else thinks about it.

Well, thats a little overstated. Some opinions (like your instructor's or your examiner's, or some other pilot who has earned your respect) do count more than others.

And direction matters as well. If you want to go flying at Aspen under a 5000 foot (AGL) overcast, it's a good idea to listen to the ramp guy (who probably isn't a pilot) -- or the weather briefer (likewise) -- when he asks if you're sure about that.

Embarrassment and other forms of peer pressure just have no place in aviation.

 

[Mafoo]

Well, thats a little overstated. Some opinions (like your instructor's or your examiner's, or some other pilot who has earned your respect) do count more than others.

And direction matters as well. If you want to go flying at Aspen under a 5000 foot (AGL) overcast, it's a good idea to listen to the ramp guy (who probably isn't a pilot) -- or the weather briefer (likewise) -- when he asks if you're sure about that.

Embarrassment and other forms of peer pressure just have no place in aviation.

Yea, that's why I worded it the way I did. I am here to learn, and benefit from those that know more then me, and that I respect. It's there knowledge that shapes what I think is right.

But "because I know more then you, and this is how it is" is not going to cut it with me (in any aspect of my life). You need to explain it to me, so I believe it.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Yea, that's why I worded it the way I did. I am here to learn, and benefit from those that know more then me, and that I respect. It's there knowledge that shapes what I think is right.

But "because I know more then you, and this is how it is" is not going to cut it with me (in any aspect of my life). You need to explain it to me, so I believe it.

Just a hint...

If it takes a hundred posts and a dozen experienced voices explaining a relatively simple concept numerous ways ... over your protests that they are wrong... until you finally "get it," you are going to miss out on many great learning experiences from those who don't have the patience to break through your shell.

Challenging one instructor with many years and thousands of hours under his belt when you are new is one thing. When you have to challenge them all, that should be giant sign to you.

I sometimes have to remind my kids that it is often better to think more and speak less.

 

[Dan Thomas]

We also ran two Citabrias, and before that an old Champ. Those airplanes have the mag switches behind and to the left of the pilot's head, up high, where they get forgotten. They're just toggle switches, and we sometimes found them still on. Checklist stuff can be critical for safety in such cases, far more important than a master left on. It got so that I never went near one of those airplanes to move it without looking through the window at those switches.

Dan

 

[Mafoo]

Just a hint...

If it takes a hundred posts and a dozen experienced voices explaining a relatively simple concept numerous ways ... over your protests that they are wrong... until you finally "get it," you are going to miss out on many great learning experiences from those who don't have the patience to break through your shell.

Challenging one instructor with many years and thousands of hours under his belt when you are new is one thing. When you have to challenge them all, that should be giant sign to you.

I sometimes have to remind my kids that it is often better to think more and speak less.

I really don't want to rehash all this again, but all these posts were mostly because what I said was taken wrong, so we have pages and pages of posts where I try trying to explain to people what was in my head when I said it.

When someone finally addressed what I was talking about in the first place (not wanting to be in the sky because an unknown number of other aircraft around me just lost there form of navigation they most commonly rely on), it took very few posts to convince me it was a non-issue.

There were a few that said basically "it happens all the time, don't worry about it", and I need more then that to not worry about it.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I really don't want to rehash all this again, but all these posts were mostly because what I said was taken wrong, so we have pages and pages of posts where I try trying to explain to people what was in my head when I said it.

When someone finally addressed what I was talking about in the first place (not wanting to be in the sky because an unknown number of other aircraft around me just lost there form of navigation they most commonly rely on), it took very few posts to convince me it was a non-issue.

There were a few that said basically "it happens all the time, don't worry about it", and I need more then that to not worry about it.

No. We heard you. Over and over as you changed your argument to try to win your point while pooh-poohing those who have already been at your stage in the learning curve and matured past it.


Here are your earlier posts. All about broken planes and electrical failures and nothing about other aircraft. But you seem to want to keep posting and changing your story until you think you've exhausted everyone else into submission.

...
For your situation to happen in real life, I would need to have been in IFR conditions for 30 minutes, with failed avionics. When I pop out of IFR and am back into VFR with parts of my plane broken and no clue where I am, you better damn well know I am landing.

No, it's not that the GPS is gone. It's why. If all my gps's are gone, and my panel has newly broken avionics in it, and I happen to have been lost in the fist place, something makes me feel like I should get not the ground as soon as possible to figure it all out.

Why is that such a bad thing?

I have trained without GPS. This has nothing to do with Navigation.

Things start breaking in my plane, I care. You old timmers might not, but I do.

Call me a sissy for not liking electrical failures while I fly. But I am landing.

 

[Jim Logajan]

But "because I know more then you, and this is how it is" is not going to cut it with me (in any aspect of my life). You need to explain it to me, so I believe it.

You should have used "Locus ab auctoritate est infirmissimus" as your subject line. If nothing else, this would have slowed down those who missed the central point of your OP long enough to look the Latin phrase up. Then they'd be arguing how wrong Aquinas was instead of how dangerous it is to rely on GPS.

 

[Mafoo]

No. We heard you. Over and over as you changed your argument to try to win your point while pooh-poohing those who have already been at your stage in the learning curve and matured past it.


Here are your earlier posts. All about broken planes and electrical failures and nothing about other aircraft. But you seem to want to keep posting and changing your story until you think you've exhausted everyone else into submission.

I am going to post this, and then I am done. I am so tired of talking about this.

Here was post 44 of the thread we are talking about. How am I changing my story now, when I stated this from the very beginning? This is the first person to ask me why I made that statement, and what I said to him 2 hours after I made the statement that has everyone upset with me.

Are you saying you do not want to be flying because WWIII has broken out hence the down GPS system or are you saying that you will not fly in an airplane without a functional GPS, period?

I am saying 95% of everyone else in the sky just lost there primary form of navigation. I don't want to be up there while they dig out there maps, and play with there VOR stuff that they havent used in 10 years.

Can we just let it go please? This is making me not want to be on this site, and I really like engaging on constructive conversations with the members of PoA.

 

[ChrisK]

Thread ignore. Seriously. You will thank me later.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Thread ignore. Seriously. You will thank me later.

I don't think he can resist the urge. He keeps saying he is done, but then he keeps posting.


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[Mafoo]

I don't think he can resist the urge. He keeps saying he is done, but then he keeps posting.


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I said that in the other thread, and I have not posted there.

I am going to take Chris's advice, and ignore both of them.

 

[denverpilot]

Can't resist: "Are you sure about that?

You're fine bud. Just mellow a touch on the whole thing. It'll be a lot clearer in 20 more years.

Keep in mind, no one here has any intent to harm, and are looking out for you more than you might realize. You're engaged, asking questions, and figuring out the stuff you'll need to know to make it to where they are today.

Sadly, I bet more than 8/10 people who have been active in this thread personally knew someone or was only one degree of separation away from someone, who's been killed doing this stuff. We've all been humbled to learn new stuff too, long after the ticket was accomplished.

Keep flyin'. Keep learnin'. We all have to.