Base leg altitude

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Witmo said:
Don't Bonanza A36s have engines? Even without an operable engine, I suspect more than a few commercial pilots could demonstrate a successful power-off 180 in a Bonanza.
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Power off 180 wouldn't be a "normal pattern" though would it?
 
You all seem to be talking about a closed pattern (more or less) in small airplanes, at uncontrolled airports.

Putting anyone of those parameters aside, “downwind” can become much different.
 
Racerx said:
Power off 180 wouldn't be a "normal pattern" though would it?
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But a "normal pattern" doesn't preclude using the engine so why couldn't an A36 make the runway from a "normal pattern" with the gear down and full flaps?
 
Witmo said:
But a "normal pattern" doesn't preclude using the engine so why couldn't an A36 make the runway from a "normal pattern" with the gear down and full flaps?
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Because a normal pattern doesn’t necessitate not using the engine.
 
Witmo said:
But a "normal pattern" doesn't preclude using the engine so why couldn't an A36 make the runway from a "normal pattern" with the gear down and full flaps?
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MauleSkinner said:
Because a normal pattern doesn’t necessitate not using the engine.
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Huh? I was responding to John Collins who claimed that a Bonanza could not successfully land with the gear and flaps down from a normal landing.
 
Witmo said:
Huh? I was responding to John Collins who claimed that a Bonanza could not successfully land with the gear and flaps down from a normal landing.
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That's because Bonanzas are to be landed gear up.
 
Witmo said:
Huh? I was responding to John Collins who claimed that a Bonanza could not successfully land with the gear and flaps down from a normal landing.
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If a normal pattern can be either power on or power off, a normal power on pattern would not be able to make the runway with gear down and full flaps.
 
Witmo said:
Huh? I was responding to John Collins who claimed that a Bonanza could not successfully land with the gear and flaps down from a normal landing.
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No. He was responding to someone about being high enough to glide in. He said when flying a normal pattern, you're not going to glide to the runway. A power off 180 isn't a normal pattern. It is very much abbreviated.
 
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I wonder how many people who insist that they be able to glide to a landing also depart in such a way that they can glide back to a landing? After all, an engine failure on takeoff is more likely and the power is more necessary in that phase, not to mention that you are typically flying in the worst direction away from the field, so I believe it is a much more dangerous exposure than losing an engine an landing short of the runway threshold.

We really ought to start initially circling over the airport right after take off to be ready to safely glide back to it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
As tempting as that sounds. we have very different attitudes about that.
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I've done it plenty, and often turned off the runway before the Cessna or Warrior that was ahead of me even turned final. I always communicate that I have them in sight and will be clear and no factor for them. They got used to it as they should if they're going to fly like that.
 
dbahn said:
I wonder how many people who insist that they be able to glide to a landing also depart in such a way that they can glide back to a landing? After all, an engine failure on takeoff is more likely and the power is more necessary in that phase, not to mention that you are typically flying in the worst direction away from the field, so I believe it is a much more dangerous exposure than losing an engine an landing short of the runway threshold.
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I do if I am staying in the pattern. When you take off with a glider, do you tow them out of gliding range of the field? Of course there's a crucial difference between landing and taking off. If you're taking off to go somewhere, then you will necessarily leave gliding distance of the runway. But when in the pattern to land, there's no reason to not stay within gliding distance.
 
dbahn said:
I wonder how many people who insist that they be able to glide to a landing also depart in such a way that they can glide back to a landing?
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The overwhelming majority of pilots I’ve flown with who claim to stay within gliding distance of the runway for landing don’t, so I can’t imagine they’d be able to manage a departure to do so.
 
Maverick10 said:
I want to thank everyone for their thoughts. Reading all the replies there is a range in how one should go about the landing in view of 91.119. Yes I am a newbie, a bit of a rebel, but I want to learn to fly safely and frankly I heard about the Trent Palmer case and I know my situation is different, I am landing at a non-towered airport, but not really different in the broad sense of how 91.119 was explained to me. A smart guy that I know explained Palmer and 91.119 to me and said it has nothing to do with a suitable place to land, the FAA screwed up making that the heart of their case, it's an appealable error. He told me that the case really has to do with the meaning of necessary and that you cannot use "I am landing" as a blanket excuse to qualify for the exception. So at the airport I described, the smart guy (who is a pilot and a lawyer) tells me you cannot fly 100, 200 or maybe even 300 ft AGL over homes located at the beginning of base leg when there are plenty of higher altitude and flight path options to safely get you to the final approach leg and all along the route, like what was said in the replies above, the ability to glide to the runway should equipment failure occur.

To answer some questions above: Runway end to end 2700ft. The published pattern puts base leg about a 1/2 mile or so from the beginning of the runway (which if you fly the published pattern the homes would be about 1/4 mile outside the pattern). Most pilots either extend the pattern and go around the homes, fly straight ins or just approach the other end of the runway to land (there are a lot of open fields around these homes). It is a rare few pilots that have no concern about flying at very low altitude (100-300 AGL) over the homes maybe because there is no enforcement at the airport and complaints to the airport go unresolved, or they just feel, like some have replied above, that you are at an airport and the 91.119 exception applies at any altitude. As a humble newbie from the replies I read above it makes sense to avoid the homes or at least be above 500ft AGL at the beginning of final leg. However, I really need help with this because you all have more experience than me (some are instructors) but you are not all in unison about 91.119. Please advise. Thank you in advance for your help!
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I think you're reading in way too much from the TP case. I fly out of an airport that has significant encroachment from residential development. In some cases I clear the last house by about 100 feet. That's necessary for taking off and landing. Crossing over a house 3 miles away is generally not necessary for take off or landing. Don't read more into the rules. What is "necessary" is intentionally vague and is considered based on the individual facts of the case. Use your best judgment and don't do anything stupid and you'll be fine.
 
I am a Bonanza owner of 45 years and specialize instructing in the type. They are very good gliders in the clean configuration, better than 10 to 1, but not so much with the gear down and much worse with gear and flaps down. In the pattern, as long as you delay extending the gear to abeam the numbers and haven't deployed the flaps, you need to turn immediately to the runway to be successful. If you fly a wide pattern, it may not be possible. If you wait until the runway is 45 degrees behind the wing, you are toast. I personally prefer doing power off landings in my Bonanza, but the deck angle is steeper than an untrained pilot anticipates. In training, I will ask the pilot to pull the power to idle once they think they have the runway made. It almost happens that they pull the power way too early and end up with no chance for a successful outcome. I do this to train the pilot what to expect. Use of the prop control is critical, if the aircraft is clean and the prop is not retarded to the rear stop, the descent rate will be roughly 1400 FPM at best glide. Pulling the prop to the rear stop, gives the best glide with a descent rate closer to 800 FPM. It is a dramatic demonstration and sticks in the pilot's memory once they see it. The glide goes from roughly 7 to 1 to above 10 to 1.

The BPPP instructing protocol for teaching power off landings in a Bonanza is to do the maneuver with the gear down, but add sufficient power to reduce the descent rate to what is experienced in a clean configuration at best glide speed in the clean configuration. This is done because extending the gear on short final is too risky. The key position over the runway begins at 2500 AGL, the turn to downwind uses a continuous 25 degree bank, so you don't get very far from the runway. Abeam the numbers is 1500 AGL and turn to base, with a target 1000 on base so you can be 800 AGL on final. Go power off on final to emulate lowering the landing gear, which is already down for safety.
 
John Collins said:
I am a Bonanza owner of 45 years and specialize instructing in the type. They are very good gliders in the clean configuration, better than 10 to 1, but not so much with the gear down and much worse with gear and flaps down. In the pattern, as long as you delay extending the gear to abeam the numbers and haven't deployed the flaps, you need to turn immediately to the runway to be successful. If you fly a wide pattern, it may not be possible. If you wait until the runway is 45 degrees behind the wing, you are toast. I personally prefer doing power off landings in my Bonanza, but the deck angle is steeper than an untrained pilot anticipates. In training, I will ask the pilot to pull the power to idle once they think they have the runway made. It almost happens that they pull the power way too early and end up with no chance for a successful outcome. I do this to train the pilot what to expect. Use of the prop control is critical, if the aircraft is clean and the prop is not retarded to the rear stop, the descent rate will be roughly 1400 FPM at best glide. Pulling the prop to the rear stop, gives the best glide with a descent rate closer to 800 FPM. It is a dramatic demonstration and sticks in the pilot's memory once they see it. The glide goes from roughly 7 to 1 to above 10 to 1.

The BPPP instructing protocol for teaching power off landings in a Bonanza is to do the maneuver with the gear down, but add sufficient power to reduce the descent rate to what is experienced in a clean configuration at best glide speed in the clean configuration. This is done because extending the gear on short final is too risky. The key position over the runway begins at 2500 AGL, the turn to downwind uses a continuous 25 degree bank, so you don't get very far from the runway. Abeam the numbers is 1500 AGL and turn to base, with a target 1000 on base so you can be 800 AGL on final. Go power off on final to emulate lowering the landing gear, which is already down for safety.
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Why not wait until rolling out onto final to drop gear and flaps for your power off 180 landings?
 
10:1 glideslope is 5.7°. Most planes will not make the runway without power trying to maintain a 3° glideslope. But again, nobody lands here without getting further than 200 feet from my house. Many air carrier airports have approaches that take you less than 500' from vehicle traffic. LaGuardia, National, Midway...
 
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Not the 180 power off landing demonstration, but illustrates the difference between some of the smaller aircraft vs the Bonanza attempting the "Impossible turn" back to the runway on a departure engine failure.
 
I don’t pay a lot of attention to the exact altitude on base, but I’d guess I’ve just begun descent as I turn base, so maybe 900’ at that point. And my GPS often gives me a 500’ callout as I’m turning final. That’s in my Light Sport, but I think it was not much different when flying my Cirrus.
 
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