Bank Angle in the Pattern

However much is needed to complete the turn without exceeding the critical angle of attack. Sometimes I'll use excessive bank for the sole purpose of dropping altitude if I'm high.
 
I'd say the answer is best determined by skill level and fundamental knowledge of aerodynamics. For a student or low-time pilot, 15-20 degrees should keep them out of trouble. For someone more experienced with a good understanding of load factor and lift vector management, it could be considerably higher. As long as you keep 1G on the wings and have altitude to lose, it doesn't really matter.
 
if you are focused enough on your bank angle to assign a number to it, then your attention needs to be elsewhere. There is nothing inside the cockpit that needs your eyes on it save for a quick glance to confirm 3 green.
 
JHW said:
There is nothing inside the cockpit that needs your eyes on it save for a quick glance to confirm 3 green.
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:eek:

Airspeed indicator?

Good way to die. :yes:

:mad2:

30 to 80 degrees for me, while checking the airspeed. ;)
 
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Pretty much for me the answer is I do not know, but I can assure you it is low angled banks, probably no more than 10 or 15 degrees. If you prepare well then excessive bank angles in the pattern should not be neccessary.

Doug
 
douglas393 said:
Pretty much for me the answer is I do not know, but I can assure you it is low angled banks, probably no more than 10 or 15 degrees. If you prepare well then excessive bank angles in the pattern should not be neccessary.

Doug
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it depends. If you want to keep a tri-pacer within reach of the airport property, or if you are in a king air getting paid per load of lawn darts, then you might decide steeper bank angles are fine and dandy.
 
JHW said:
it depends. If you want to keep a tri-pacer within reach of the airport property, or if you are in a king air getting paid per load of lawn darts, then you might decide steeper bank angles are fine and dandy.
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I should have said in my limited experience in 182's and 172's. I stand corrected.
 
Whatever it takes to safely land the plane , and not scare the pax's.... Generally less then 30 degrees will get the job done.... Remember, anything more then a 60 degree bank is considered aerobatic and there is no aerobatics allowed in a airport traffic area. But... sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do..:yes:
 
Keeping bank angles down arbitrarily is a BAD idea.

Large bank doesn't cause stalls below about 50 deg (coordinated and at 1.3Vs0), but not enough bank for a turn can cause a nasty one. That's the classic cross-control stall on the base-to-final turn.
 
Geico266 said:
:eek:

Airspeed indicator?

Good way to die. :yes:

:mad2:

30 to 80 degrees for me, while checking the airspeed. ;)
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You need an AS indicator to tell you if you are on the verge of stalling?

To answer the OP - look, If its just me or a few select friends, I'm not flying a bus unless I have to be . . .

I'll use what I need for a crisp tight pattern.
 
Geico266 said:
:eek:

Airspeed indicator?

Good way to die. :yes:

:mad2:

30 to 80 degrees for me, while checking the airspeed. ;)
Click to expand...

Depends on what kind of pilot you are I guess. If you are a mechanical, "numbers" pilot, then by all means, keep your primary focus on the ASI and your mental conversion charts of bank angles and stall speeds in level turns if you like.

But if you are the type who prefers to pay attention to the airplane's stick/yoke position, control feedback, and sound, then the ASI is not very important. And the airplane will tell you how fast it's going through the air, but you must learn it AND pay attention. Not saying one type is better than the other. What you're really concerned with low to the ground is AOA. The ASI doesn't tell you anything about that. Stick position and feedback do, however. The "feel" approach is perfectly suitable and safe for some, but maybe not for others. Pretty inaccurate statement to say that the non-ASI worshippers are unsafe and likely to die.
 
Jaybird180 said:
What do you use? 30deg? 15deg? 115deg:hairraise:?
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My CFI said there was not much to be gained by anything over 30 degrees in a normal landing. Anything more than that - such as in an engine out scenario - and he expected to see even more nose down if I needed to make steeper banks.

Generally he would bring my steeper turns to my attention by asking "Why the fighter plane maneuver?"
 
Jaybird180 said:
What do you use? 30deg? 15deg? 115deg:hairraise:?
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I had my sport pilot before starting toward my PPL>
I had this instructor hammer me, 30Deg crosswind downwind. 20 Deg base final. Said it was FAA recommended, but I never found anything written like that.
Needless to say, after a few lessons, I got rid of him and found a wonderful instructor.
 
I bank it until the stall horn goes off.
 
After a simulated Instrument missed approach to 35R (low and climbing at 200 AGL, full power go-around) last week, I was told to enter left traffic for 17L at KAPA.

When abeam the numbers the tower asked for a "short approach".

Why bother climbing anymore? ;)

Racked it over because I was still laterally closer in than usual, and put the nose down in order to not slough off too much energy, flaps straight to 40, confirmed, and still too fast after a continuous steep turn to final (confirmed by altitude, wind whistling through the struts and flaps, and ASI), stomped on the high-side rudder and left the bank in and waited for it to come down, remove rudder at 10', landed just beyond the 1000' marker.

One of my best landings of the year. Just a squeak as the mains touched down with the nosewheel off.

Co-owner even remarked it was nice, where usually I make my crappy landings with him aboard. Ha.

I'm sure we exceeded 30 degrees. I paid ZERO attention to it. I was outside almost the entire time, and listening to the airspeed.

It's not about the bank angle, it's about energy management. I do understand why instructors place arbitrary limits on students, though.

I wouldn't do the above with non-pilots aboard just because they will feel uncomfortable.
 
jesse said:
However much is needed to complete the turn without exceeding the critical angle of attack. Sometimes I'll use excessive bank for the sole purpose of dropping altitude if I'm high.
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:yeahthat:
Just fly the airplane the way it needs to be flown to make it do what you want it to do. If I had to put a number on it, probably about 30deg on a "Normal" pattern IDK..
 
jesse said:
However much is needed to complete the turn without exceeding the critical angle of attack.
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That. Depends a lot on what I'm flying, too, as the turn radius at 50 knots in an LSA is a lot tighter than the turn radius in a Baron at twice that speed.
 
Geico266 said:
:eek:

Airspeed indicator?

Good way to die. :yes:

:mad2:

30 to 80 degrees for me, while checking the airspeed. ;)
Click to expand...

You should be able to fly the pattern without an airspeed indicator. Orville and Wilbur did not have an airspeed indicator. IMHO, many pilots are afraid of the low-speed end of the airspeed indicator and do almost everything too fast.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
You should be able to fly the pattern without an airspeed indicator. Orville and Wilbur did not have an airspeed indicator. IMHO, many pilots are afraid of the low-speed end of the airspeed indicator and do almost everything too fast.

Bob Gardner
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I believe that is a dangerous misrepresentation of history and current regulatory constraints. They had a very basic angle-of-attack indicator on their first airplane. In fact it was their only flight instrument. There should be no implication that they felt they could fly entirely by the seat of their pants. They did not trust their abilities that much, so it seems unwise for anyone else to be too trusting of their abilities except where exceptional circumstances require it.

Since the FAA regulations do not require an AoA indicator, but do require an airspeed indicator, the only alternative we later pilots seem to have is to use the airspeed indicator and keep the bank angle shallow so that the airspeed indicator can be used as a crude replacement for the AoA indicator.

With respect to the original bank angle question, here is a specific recommendation from an AOPA ASF stall/spin safety article:
"Don’t exceed 30 degrees of bank in the traffic pattern."
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/topics/stall_spin.pdf

From the FAA stall and spin AC:
"Excessively steep banks should be avoided because the airplane will stall at a much higher speed."
http://www.mccc.edu/~kuhlj/classpix/AVI 132/AC 61-67c stall spin.pdf
 
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When I was a student, I was real paranoid about banking too much in the pattern and stall-spinning. A CFI finally convinced me that I had nothing to worry about as long as I kept my airspeed up and the ball centered. Now I probably bank 15-20 degrees on average, but if I'm going to overshoot final because of a higher than anticipated tailwind on base, I will go to 30 or so.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Too bad that's not true.
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The conditions under which it isn't true for most pattern flying require descending flight - the more bank, the more nose down you have to be to avoid stalling. Anything else and the FAA AC is correct enough to save lives.

I know enough about physics to know when people are using conditions outside normal pattern maneuvers to score points on pedantry. Consider yourself a couple points up. If you actually read the two documents you'll find they say stalls can happen at any speed and any attitude (relative to the ground) but guess what - they still felt it appropriate to recommend low bank angles in the pattern.

Anyway - I've posted two presumably credible sources that recommend avoiding steep banks in the pattern. If all the net experts and CFIs who think differently wants to take them to task - fine. I've done what I thought was proper by bringing these sources to the discussion.
 
RoscoeT said:
Yep. If an airplane "normally" stalls at 50 mph indicated, what will its stall speed be in a 60 degree banked 1 G turn?
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In a 1G turn, the "stall speed" is the same. If you're holding altitude, however, the Gs go up and so does the speed at which the stall occurs.
 
Geico266 said:
:eek:

Airspeed indicator?

Good way to die. :yes:

:mad2:

30 to 80 degrees for me, while checking the airspeed. ;)
Click to expand...

You should be able to feel if your are getting close to a stall, once the runway is made (power off, ofcourse) there is nothing on that panel you need to worry about (minus a RG plane).

As for bank, anything that you need whilst being smart.

One can even come in on a high downwind, pitching for near vne with only decent power to not shock cool, power out & level off abeam the numbers burning a little airspeed, 90 degree bank and yank to vfe sweeping into final, first notch flaps, feel sink, second, feel sink third, touchdown, flaps up.
 
RoscoeT said:
Yep. If an airplane "normally" stalls at 50 mph indicated, what will its stall speed be in a 60 degree banked 1 G turn?
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At 60 degrees, the load factor is 2. The square root of that is 1.41, which is what we multiply the stall speed by to get the stall speed in that bank. It's way beyond any 1.3 Vso. A 50 mph stall becomes 70.5.

At 45°, it's 1.19 Vso, getting close to the 1.3 if that's where we're at.

I used 30 degrees in the circuit. Turbulence can induce problems if we get too close to the stall.

Dan
 
In regards to the airspeed indicator.........

It seems that there is too much of "one size fits all" on this forum. As if "feel by your rear" can take place of everything.

It's not so! The first mention of an airspeed indicator was brought up by an owner of RVs. With my RV6, the Hartzell constant speed prop acted as an excellent airbrake. I can descend at 1400 fpm & still loose plenty of airspeed to drop from 120 kias to 80, while turning base. But at the same time, since the C/S prop will slow this little airplane down so fast...........the airspeed can also diminish to the point of a stall before you know it. Therfor, the airspeed indicator (taking into account-- bank angle), or better yet, an AOA is quite helpful. Sure...you can always land by your rear-end, and keep the airspeed margin a little higher. It's up to you I guess. In the meantime, I always took quick glances of the airspeed.

L.Adamson

P.S.---- that "base turn" is a short high angle turn. No 747 patterns for me! :wink2:
 
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Dan Thomas said:
At 60 degrees, the load factor is 2. The square root of that is 1.41, which is what we multiply the stall speed by to get the stall speed in that bank. It's way beyond any 1.3 Vso. A 50 mph stall becomes 70.5.

At 45°, it's 1.19 Vso, getting close to the 1.3 if that's where we're at.

I used 30 degrees in the circuit. Turbulence can induce problems if we get too close to the stall.

Dan
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Only if your turns are level and coordinated.

The question was about a 1 G turn. The load factor is 1. A 1 G turn is possible if you descend during the turn.
 
bobmrg said:
IMHO, many pilots are afraid of the low-speed end of the airspeed indicator and do almost everything too fast.
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Depends on what you're looking at. In some cases, we just prefer doing things faster. Airspeed can be your friend.

When it comes to landings, of course, one must maintain controlled airspeed. Since I fly into a 2800 ft strip in twins, I need to have my airspeed down pretty low on final and be comfortable with it. But when I have a longer airport, I'll carry a bit more speed. Gives me more margin if an engine fails on short final. If it happens on short final going into my 2800 ft strip, I'm probably crashing.
 
Guys, if you are pulling G's in the pattern turning to the runway something is seriously wrong . . . unless you are in an airplane with a Martin Baker.

All of the rules of thumb and mathematical forumulae [yes, forum - ulae] are predicated on maintaining altitude - there is no 'critical bank angle' or critical angle of attack in an unloaded wing -

Go try it sometime - take it up - slow it to 1.2Vso - calculate it for your rough weight, get your airplane in its specified condition - and crank it into a 45 degree bank but unload the wing - and keep it unloaded - crank it to 90 - you might flip over into an inverted descent but its not going to be because you stalled -

duh.
 
Plus, I've slam dunked into airports [even VFR] by ATC - slowing down to gear speed and then tossing some flaps - and then simply pulling some G's [say 2.5 or so] is a GREAT way to get rid of energy - I've been 155kias on downwind or some angle to the airport - at idle - slowed to gear speed, dumped the flaps to white line still at pattern altitude and simply cranked a coordinated turn remaining at altitude til about 65mph then unloading the wings in the turn - you end up about 1.3Vso 100 AGL when your stomach catches up . . .

G's are great way to get rid of excess energy . . .
 
As pointed out, the problem with limiting bank angle to some arbitrary number is that often pilots will then compensate with dangerous rudder inputs to bring the nose around. Rather than focus on bank angle, focus on not pulling the yoke/stick and staying coordinated in the pattern. This keeps the wings unloaded. If you feel yourself pulling more than just a little in the pattern under normal circumstances as you turn base or final, it's time to think about going around.
 
comanchepilot said:
Plus, I've slam dunked into airports [even VFR] by ATC - slowing down to gear speed and then tossing some flaps - and then simply pulling some G's [say 2.5 or so] is a GREAT way to get rid of energy - I've been 155kias on downwind or some angle to the airport - at idle - slowed to gear speed, dumped the flaps to white line still at pattern altitude and simply cranked a coordinated turn remaining at altitude til about 65mph then unloading the wings in the turn - you end up about 1.3Vso 100 AGL when your stomach catches up . . .

G's are great way to get rid of excess energy . . .
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Very true. Also known as a standard arrival into Newark. Hate flying into there.
 
MAKG1 said:
Only if your turns are level and coordinated.

The question was about a 1 G turn. The load factor is 1. A 1 G turn is possible if you descend during the turn.
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In a steady descent, the load factor is unchanged. If the descent rate is increasing, then the load factor is lower. But that descent needs to be constantly increasing, which tends to get deadly.

Same as a straight-ahead climb or descent. If the flight path is in a straight line, up or down, you are at 1G.

Dan
 
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