Bank Angle in the Pattern

[BillTIZ]

You should be able to fly the pattern without an airspeed indicator. Orville and Wilbur did not have an airspeed indicator. IMHO, many pilots are afraid of the low-speed end of the airspeed indicator and do almost everything too fast.

Bob Gardner

One of our pre solo exercises is to cover the ASI and ALT while still above 2K AGL. The student needs to judge pattern entry and fly the pattern with only what he knows from his experience with pitch attitude and judging what looks right outside the window for pattern altitude and when to turn base and final.

Yes this is in a glider.

 

[AggieMike88]

I sorta like Paul's answer in this video B)

 

[flyingmoose]

I sorta like Paul's video also!

 

[Seanaldinho]

One of our pre solo exercises is to cover the ASI and ALT while still above 2K AGL. The student needs to judge pattern entry and fly the pattern with only what he knows from his experience with pitch attitude and judging what looks right outside the window for pattern altitude and when to turn base and final.

Yes this is in a glider.

I remember that being quite a challenging excercise. Very fun and I feel I came out of it as a better pilot.

I sorta like Paul's answer in this video B)

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The conditions under which it isn't true for most pattern flying require descending flight - the more bank, the more nose down you have to be to avoid stalling. Anything else and the FAA AC is correct enough to save lives.

I know enough about physics to know when people are using conditions outside normal pattern maneuvers to score points on pedantry. Consider yourself a couple points up. If you actually read the two documents you'll find they say stalls can happen at any speed and any attitude (relative to the ground) but guess what - they still felt it appropriate to recommend low bank angles in the pattern.

Anyway - I've posted two presumably credible sources that recommend avoiding steep banks in the pattern. If all the net experts and CFIs who think differently wants to take them to task - fine. I've done what I thought was proper by bringing these sources to the discussion.

I couldn't disagree more.

It's got NOTHING to do with "using conditions outside normal pattern maneuvers to score points on pedantry"

It's got EVERYTHING to do with conditions inside the normal pattern that result in dead pilots.

"We" teach pilots that increasing bank causes the stall speed to increase and the way to be safe is to keep the bank angle shallow.

So, what happens? According to the "standard scenario", pilots fixate on bank angle and instead try to horse it around using rudder and elevator. Stall, spin, die.

Teach pilots that stalls happen as a result of pulling not as a result of banking. Teach them to let the nose drop in the pattern. Stop teaching steep turns at constant altitude to ingrain the habit of pulling at the same time that you bank. Teach them to NOT pull. Teach them to not stall, spin, die.

Teaching a myth does not save lives. Particularly when you tell them to do exactly what causes them to die rather than explaining what really causes the stall.

Watch the pull, not the bank.

 

[LDJones]

Pretty much for me the answer is I do not know, but I can assure you it is low angled banks, probably no more than 10 or 15 degrees. If you prepare well then excessive bank angles in the pattern should not be neccessary.

Doug

Doesn't that make for pretty wide patterns??

 

[Threefingeredjack]

Really? How far from the edge of the table do you set your coffee cup??? What if you have added cream and sugar??? Is the cup white or colored??? Questions like this drive me crazy. You position the aircraft where it needs to be to execute a safe landing and keep it under control. I have never in my life even considered what bank angle was appropriate, no matter if it was in a Taylorcraft or a C-130, I just did what I needed to do to make it to the runway safely.

 

[JHW]

Doesn't that make for pretty wide patterns??

There's been several times I've flown a king air inside the "pattern" of a C-172 and landed before him. "Pattern" in quotes because if you can only see them because of their strobes, they're too far away.

 

[dell30rb]

Those who are timid about limiting their bank angle should practice accelerated stalls. Its important to know that bank angle has nothing to do with it. Might save your bacon one day if you are in the pattern, turning and you feel the buffet of an impending stall.

An example - say I am flying with a G meter, straight and level at 60 knots. I pull back on the yoke and the plane buffets and stalls as I hit 2 G's

Now say we are flying straight and level at 60 knots. And I roll it quickly in a coordinated turn to 60 degree bank angle, pulling back on the yoke simultaneously to maintain altitude. As I complete my roll-in to the turn, the G meter hits two G's and the plane buffets and stalls.

If you can follow along with this you can understand how bank angle does not directly affect AoA

 

[N801BH]

Personally, I am sitting here is disbelief that there are pilots on here who don't understand how a aircraft flies and what causes a stall.....

Geez.... What kind of instructors are out there now.

 

[LDJones]

I sorta like Paul's answer in this video B)

Love the growing gaggle of epaulets!

 

[Captain]

Obviously mixing level and descending turns. Not really fair. The AC is speaking to level turns and it's true.

Break

In all professional flying I've done it's SOP to execute a go around at the first (any) indication of a stall. (horn, buffet, light, airspeed indicator)

So yes, the ASI is in my scan.

 

[flyingmoose]

Love the growing gaggle of epaulets!

Well that makes you fly better right?

 

[Jaybird180]

What's the stall speed of an aircraft at 0G?

 

[LDJones]

Well that makes you fly better right?

I never knew. Don't own any, but Christmas is coming.

 

[write-stuff]

What's the stall speed of an aircraft at 0G?

Infinity.

 

[fgcason]

Why are people afraid to fly an airplane properly? Do they think they'll fall out the door if it's not kept nearly level? No wonder there are stall/spin problems from base to final.

Use the bank angle that will get you from where you are to where you're going without running into anything and without stalling. Just turn the silly airplane and get on with things and don't worry so much about it.

Ho hum flatsville stuff: Crosswind to downwind turns at 15deg put you on downwind at the right separation from the runway for a forced landing on the runway and at pattern altitude when you get on downwind. 30deg to base and final turns gives you plenty of time to get level, check for traffic, put more flaps in then make the next turn.
At the family farm runway, 40-50deg bank angles from the sort of two turn angled in base then to final turn while at full flaps and falling like a rock is mandatory..the treetops say so and arguing with them won't get you anywhere useful. A 30deg bank going in that way will put you in the tree tops. A 15deg bank either direction would be just idiotic stupid beyond words.

 

[MAKG1]

In a steady descent, the load factor is unchanged. If the descent rate is increasing, then the load factor is lower. But that descent needs to be constantly increasing, which tends to get deadly.

Same as a straight-ahead climb or descent. If the flight path is in a straight line, up or down, you are at 1G.

Dan

No one said anything about steady descents. The question was about a 1 G turn.

If you are so close to the ground as to be unable to make the turn, go around. You should be at least 400 AGL at base to final. You are at much greater risk playing around with the cross-control stall.

 

[comanchepilot]

Everyone in piston singles also needs to approach downwind at cruise speed [try to do this when not busy - but hey, airplanes fly at different speeds right? Downwind in a Baron or KingAir is cruise speed for a 150] and get in on the ground in less than the standard 3 mile pattern . . .

The scene at Brackett on Friday was exactly what Paul was talking about - student in the pattern for the left side. I'm cleared #2 behind him, he's in a Skyhawk, and the guy is like 2 miles from the end of the runway - I'm turning - don't see him - call no joy and the tower tells me he's still a mile out -

Thankfully - the tower guys have a relative knowledge of basic skills and changed the flow to me first and the Skyhawk #2 - remember here- I'm just turning base about 900AGL doing 100mph and he just inside a mile. I'm down and off the runway before he's even over the fence - dragging it in? I think so.

 

[RoscoeT]

Why are people afraid to fly an airplane properly? Do they think they'll fall out the door if it's not kept nearly level? No wonder there are stall/spin problems from base to final.

Yep. If folks wouldn't make such a big deal about some arbitary bank angle in the pattern being too steep or "dangerous", nobody would feel the need to cheat with rudder and drill into the ground on base/final. But the majority of pilots are simply timid in an airplane when it comes to maneuvering beyond a narrow range of airspeed and bank angle. Some overcome this, many don't.

 

[wabower]

Since I'm in the process of installing and calibrating an AOA in the plane, I'm probably more conscious of IAS than at other times. So during the most-recent flight, I started thinking more about the issues involved with integrating the information provided by both systems, yada yada.

I concluded that during a typical circuit I only use the IAS for two things:

1. To assure the plane has slowed to it's somewhat limited max flap speed.
2. Speed check once fully configure, trimmed and power set for landing.

So, why not at any other times?

1. When power is applied for takeoff, tail will rise when it's ready to fly. A few seconds later it will do so by itself.
2. With flaps up, climb with nose just below horizon yields good rate and visibility. I don't care about the speed needle.
3. On downwind, power at bottom of green arc will keep it close to flap speed. No reason to look at ASI.
4. Passing abeam the touchdown point is the IAS checkpoint for VLO. Adjust power as required.
5. Turning base, add remainder of flaps and trim to final approach speed.
6. Check IAS on final.

After doing it a few times I discovered that IAS was never more than 5 mph different than what I perceived, and always fast.

 

[dell30rb]

Whatever it takes to safely land the plane , and not scare the pax's.... Generally less then 30 degrees will get the job done.... Remember, anything more then a 60 degree bank is considered aerobatic and there is no aerobatics allowed in a airport traffic area. But... sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do..

Sure about that?

I know 60 degrees bank is the cutoff for passengers and chutes.

I seem to remember that you can exceed 60 degrees in many aircraft that are in the utility category but you cannot exceed 90 unless the aircraft is certified for aerobatics.

Also I remember reading another definition defining aerobatic maneuvers as abrupt and not necessary for normal flight operations. Don't think a steeply banked base-final slipping turn with a smooth entry and exit qualifies

 

[bobmrg]

I believe that is a dangerous misrepresentation of history and current regulatory constraints. They had a very basic angle-of-attack indicator on their first airplane. In fact it was their only flight instrument. There should be no implication that they felt they could fly entirely by the seat of their pants. They did not trust their abilities that much, so it seems unwise for anyone else to be too trusting of their abilities except where exceptional circumstances require it.

Since the FAA regulations do not require an AoA indicator, but do require an airspeed indicator, the only alternative we later pilots seem to have is to use the airspeed indicator and keep the bank angle shallow so that the airspeed indicator can be used as a crude replacement for the AoA indicator.

With respect to the original bank angle question, here is a specific recommendation from an AOPA ASF stall/spin safety article:
"Don’t exceed 30 degrees of bank in the traffic pattern."
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/topics/stall_spin.pdf

From the FAA stall and spin AC:
"Excessively steep banks should be avoided because the airplane will stall at a much higher speed."
http://www.mccc.edu/~kuhlj/classpix/AVI 132/AC 61-67c stall spin.pdf

I knew that the Wrights had an AoA indicator, Jim. We would all be better off if the FAA scrapped airspeed indicators and mandated AoA for everyone. My point is still valid: Too many pilots learn to fly while relying on the ASI to keep them safe instead of learning the physical sensations of an imminent stall.

Bob

 

[N801BH]

Sure about that?

I am pretty sure....

Feel free to head on down to OKCity and while there and some FAA types standing on the ramp are watching your landing go ahead and do 85 degree wing over on the base to final turn and see how that works out for ya.

 

[dell30rb]

I am pretty sure....

Feel free to head on down to OKCity and while there a some FAA types standing on the ramp watching your landing go ahead and do 85 degree wing over on the base to final turn and see how that works out for ya.

A wingover is an abrupt maneuver (though they should be done quite smoothly) which takes you up, then back down again (and should be 180 degrees, not 90) while a slipping turn keeps you in the pattern

 

[N801BH]

A wingover is an abrupt maneuver (though they should be done quite smoothly) which takes you up, then back down again (and should be 180 degrees, not 90) while a slipping turn keeps you in the pattern

My mistake...... remove the word "wingover" and get back to me..

 

[dell30rb]

My mistake...... remove the word "wingover" and get back to me..

I have no doubt someone would be freaking out but is a 60+ degree bank technically an aerobatic maneuver?

 

[N801BH]

I have no doubt someone would be freaking out but is a 60+ degree bank technically an aerobatic maneuver?

I was taught anything over 30 degrees nose up or down and any bank over 60 degrees was considered aerobatic...

I could be wrong though.

 

[Jeanie]

Unusual attitude training by an aerobatic CFI is a good idea for pilots who are timid or perhaps I should say overly cautious with banks. Some were taught to use shallow banks and watch their ASI, some are just rusty and perhaps uncomfortable from reading accident reports.
The best thing I did as a student was get 4 hrs of aerobatic time. I was much less fearful afterwards. Im not saying everyone is cut out for aerobatics but all pilots would benefit from the "normal" unusual attitude training that is offered nowadays.

But, maybe, I'm just the one with an unusual attitude

 

[dell30rb]

I don't think that you are the only one who thinks that, I am not even sure myself. But if you read the FAR's, the section of aerobatic flight does not include bank angles in the definition.

The section on parachutes, says that chutes must be worn with pax if bank angles exceed yada yada yada, but this section makes no mention of aerobatics.

Finally, according to the POH I can exceed 60 degrees of bank in a pa-28 as long as its in the utility category. Its not an aerobatic plane so I am thinking that a bank angle of more than 60 is not, by itself, qualifying of aerobatics.

91.303 Aerobatic flight.
No person may operate an aircraft in aerobatic flight—

(a) Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement;

(b) Over an open air assembly of persons;

(c) Within the lateral boundaries of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace designated for an airport;

(d) Within 4 nautical miles of the center line of any Federal airway;

(e) Below an altitude of 1,500 feet above the surface; or

(f) When flight visibility is less than 3 statute miles.

For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's attitude, an abnormal attitude, or abnormal acceleration, not necessary for normal flight.

§ 91.307 Parachutes and parachuting.
(a) No pilot of a civil aircraft may allow a parachute that is available for emergency use to be carried in that aircraft unless it is an approved type and has been packed by a certificated and appropriately rated parachute rigger—

(1) Within the preceding 180 days, if its canopy, shrouds, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or other similar synthetic fiber or materials that are substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, or other fungi and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or

(2) Within the preceding 60 days, if any part of the parachute is composed of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber or materials not specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section.

(b) Except in an emergency, no pilot in command may allow, and no person may conduct, a parachute operation from an aircraft within the United States except in accordance with part 105 of this chapter.

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations for any certificate or rating when given by—

(i) A certificated flight instructor; or

(ii) An airline transport pilot instructing in accordance with § 61.67 of this chapter.

 

[Everskyward]

I got my private during the time period when steep turns were required to be 60 degrees and I enjoyed doing them even then. As far as bank angle in the pattern is concerned I'll say that I can't really recall ever looking, either in small airplanes or larger ones. In general, I know that we are not supposed to exceed 30 degrees with passengers whether in the pattern or not but there's no issue with doing steep turns empty.

 

[N801BH]

Thanks for researching that and posting the specs.....

As for the PA-28 limits in the utility catagory.... Where do ya draw the line..

An aileron roll is just a steep bank that continues...

Ps... I have a "good friend" :wink2::wink2::wink2: that can verify a PA-28-151 will do aileron rolls very nicely and safely.

 

[RoscoeT]

I don't think that you are the only one who thinks that, I am not even sure myself. But if you read the FAR's, the section of aerobatic flight does not include bank angles in the definition.

The section on parachutes, says that chutes must be worn with pax if bank angles exceed yada yada yada, but this section makes no mention of aerobatics.

This is right, bank and pitch angles have absolutely nothing to do with the legal definition of aerobatics. However, "unusual attitude" is included in the FAA's definition of aerobatics. Folks, regs are ambiguous for a reason. It's called latitude for the FAA. There is nothing definitively aerobatic about a 90 degree bank angle, but that doesn't mean an FAA inspector won't interpret this 90 degree bank as an "unusual attitude", "not necessary for normal flight". If you read the definition of aerobatics, it can be pretty much anything. I can perform an abnormal acceleration of the airplane within 20 degrees of pitch and bank. That's technically aerobatics. But no FAA inspector will see it that way. The rest of you can argue all you want about what aerobatics is and isn't. The fact is...is that it's arbitrary and subject to opinion and interpretation. If the FAA really wants to bust you, guess how what you did will be interpreted.

 

[MDeitch1976]

I believe the problem is in the training, and the books. Also, inexperience. Obviously a steeper turn with a lower nose is going to increase descent rate and maybe to out of the ordinary for some. I remember being demonstrated a slip for the first time. The instructor asked for the controls after having me turn an early base. He did not say what he was about to do. This was a very unusual feeling, and sight. The other day watched a smaller jet (something like a citation) come into GAI(Left pattern for a RP32, even after several radio calls to him that he was wrong pattern direction), and I was amazed by the bank angle he made to what was a really short final. I always see other pilots enter really short Base and finals to the RWY, and hope to gain experience with this. I assume some people just never find the comfort zone for this?

 

[comanchepilot]

If you unload an airplane in a 60 degree bank to lose altitude - is that abnormal? It seems to be that what is abnormal would be pulling G's in that situation unless it was part of the turn and necessary to scruff off excess energy and allow you to descend.

The language gives the FAA in its reg has all sorts of wiggle room to call one maneuver abnormal in one circumstance that is not in another. . . intentionally.

And yes, some folks never find the comfort zone in making an airplane do what you want it to do completely within the envelope. . . .but the guy who is flying a pattern a mile off the side into a 2.5 mile final, yeah, that is ripe for retraining. I don't anyone is talking about that.

Understanding how it feels to go to a 2 G pull to scruff off speed while still descending to land seems an essential skill of being an aviator. Understanding how to land an airplane in a particular spot even with an airplane that does not landing in particular spot is also one of those skills an aviator needs. Now, if you want to fly a bus from point A to B - then its not as necessary a skill. Its like landing in a slip, you are not doing to do that in a 737 . . . so why learn the skill, right?

There are some things I'll do in an airplane with fellow pilots who would understand the need that will not happen in an airplane with 60 year old women on a charity joyride. . .

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In a steady descent, the load factor is unchanged. If the descent rate is increasing, then the load factor is lower. But that descent needs to be constantly increasing, which tends to get deadly.

I was hoping I wouldn't be the first to say that.

Folks, a 45-degree banked turn at a steady rate of descent has the SAME load factor as a 45-degree banked level turn. If you're banking at 45 degrees and your load factor is less than 1.414, you're *accelerating* downwards, which is not something that can be sustained for a very long period of time.

No one said anything about steady descents. The question was about a 1 G turn.

The problem is, you don't make 1-G turns in the pattern, or hardly ever - Part of the problem with a 1-G turn is that it is a much less effective turn than a loaded turn.

Let's say you use a 45-degree banked turn, but keep the load factor at 1 G. Now, you'll have only 70.7% of the vertical lift necessary to keep your plane's vertical state steady, and only 70.7% of the horizontal lift that would turn your plane in a vertically steady-state 45º banked turn. So, your turn rate will only be equal to a 30º banked turn, but your vertical acceleration would be 9.43 ft/s^2. Assuming an airspeed of 75 knots, a 90-degree turn would take just under 8 seconds, and that vertical acceleration would add 4,448 fpm to our descent rate!

So, even if you "unload" the wing during a turn, you are NOT unloading it all the way to 1 G. It's far better to keep the descent in a steady state, which means that the load factor will increase exactly the same as it would in a level turn.

If you are so close to the ground as to be unable to make the turn, go around. You should be at least 400 AGL at base to final. You are at much greater risk playing around with the cross-control stall.

YES! So then, why don't we tell students to keep their turns coordinated, at around 30 degrees of bank or less, and if they overshoot final (aka the centerline) when doing so, to keep the turn coming and correct? That's one helluva lot better than trying to get them to unload the wing in a steeper turn that close to the ground before they've had much chance to develop stick-and-rudder skills!!

 

[Dan Thomas]

YES! So then, why don't we tell students to keep their turns coordinated, at around 30 degrees of bank or less, and if they overshoot final (aka the centerline) when doing so, to keep the turn coming and correct? That's one helluva lot better than trying to get them to unload the wing in a steeper turn that close to the ground before they've had much chance to develop stick-and-rudder skills!!

Any instructor that catches a student skidding a turn, and doesn't immediately correct it, isn't a good instructor. We used to take control as a means of drilling the wrongness of it into the pupil.

Requiring too much bank or skidding to keep bank angle low are both dangerous fixes to the real problem: failure to plan the turn so that you arrive on centerline without getting too aggressive near the ground.

When I did Citabria or Champ checkouts, any skid by the student (in the pattern, especially) meant that we broke off what we were doing and went out the the practice area, climbed to altitude, and skidded a gliding turn, raising the nose a bit so that speed bled off. The airplane would stall and spin well before the normal stall speed. It was pretty intense for the student and they didn't skid their turns anymore.

Dan

 

[dell30rb]

raising the nose a bit so that speed bled off. The airplane would stall and spin well before the normal stall speed. It was pretty intense for the student and they didn't skid their turns anymore.

Dan

Pull a low speed accelerated stall in a skidding turn and you're going to be immediately in a spin. Do this in a slip, even a full deflection, turning slip with 70 degrees of bank and the plane will just wallow, buffet and want to roll back level.

If you stall in a skidding turn, you are putting in pro-spin rudder at the time of the stall. If you stall during a slipping turn, you are already pushing on the rudder in the correct direction for recovery, so not much happens

 

[denverpilot]

Unusual attitude training by an aerobatic CFI is a good idea for pilots who are timid or perhaps I should say overly cautious with banks. Some were taught to use shallow banks and watch their ASI, some are just rusty and perhaps uncomfortable from reading accident reports.
The best thing I did as a student was get 4 hrs of aerobatic time. I was much less fearful afterwards. Im not saying everyone is cut out for aerobatics but all pilots would benefit from the "normal" unusual attitude training that is offered nowadays.

But, maybe, I'm just the one with an unusual attitude

Ding ding ding. They're just not teaching anything more than 30 degrees these days.

You really owe it to yourself if you didn't grow up in the "use whatever it takes, fly the plane" world and instead grew up flying in the "stabilized approach" world, to go out and get the aircraft stood up on a wingtip for a while.

There was a significant shift in behavior and training sometime between when I got my Private in the early 90's and today, and in their defense, I don't feel the FAAs guidance was interpreted correctly by the GA world.

P.S. Hire Jeanie. Haha.

 

[wabower]

Joe, I don't think the speed differential is a problem that can be solved and will always require some kind of work-around by the tower or the pilots involved.

I can easily slow to pattern speed of 140 in the B-200 or Citation 650, but will fly the final at 110-120 to be at 103 (vref) at the threshold in the King Air and 20 knots faster in the jet. Those speeds are 50-70 knot overtake on light singles on final no matter what I do, so some spacing must be built into the flow when different types are involved. Our reliever airport is home to both an American Flyers training facility and the MX base for Flex-Jet, as well as many other operators varying from LSA's to Boeing 737's.

The tower guys will tell you that they can make it work, but they can't make it pretty. They don't like big patterns either, but what other tool is available? And their problems are compounded by the hurry-up-and-wait speeds issued to inbound planes by DFW approach who never seems to be on the same page as the tower controllers.

Everyone in piston singles also needs to approach downwind at cruise speed [try to do this when not busy - but hey, airplanes fly at different speeds right? Downwind in a Baron or KingAir is cruise speed for a 150] and get in on the ground in less than the standard 3 mile pattern . . .

The scene at Brackett on Friday was exactly what Paul was talking about - student in the pattern for the left side. I'm cleared #2 behind him, he's in a Skyhawk, and the guy is like 2 miles from the end of the runway - I'm turning - don't see him - call no joy and the tower tells me he's still a mile out -

Thankfully - the tower guys have a relative knowledge of basic skills and changed the flow to me first and the Skyhawk #2 - remember here- I'm just turning base about 900AGL doing 100mph and he just inside a mile. I'm down and off the runway before he's even over the fence - dragging it in? I think so.