Ballmer laughs at the iPhone

[flyingcheesehead]

But that's just me... I'm the "a fancy UI is a sure sign of a developer with not enough real work to do" type, so...

They did do one, key, very smart thing - They busted their butt making an excellent API and development tools, so that it's not hard at all to make great programs.

My brother, for instance, once created a web browser, from scratch, in about 5 minutes, WITHOUT WRITING A SINGLE LINE OF CODE. I've played with the XCode tools a bit, but not enough to get to know the ins and outs and actually do anything very useful quite yet.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

They did do one, key, very smart thing - They busted their butt making an excellent API and development tools, so that it's not hard at all to make great programs.

My brother, for instance, once created a web browser, from scratch, in about 5 minutes, WITHOUT WRITING A SINGLE LINE OF CODE. I've played with the XCode tools a bit, but not enough to get to know the ins and outs and actually do anything very useful quite yet.

I can't comment directly since I've never done any development for the Mac, but the importance of well thought-out APIs and developer tools can't be overstated. But I'll also say that as as a primarily (90%+) Windows developer, I'm pretty happy with Microsoft in that regard... Between the Windows API and the MFC you've got a pretty good ability to get into the deeper OS stuff, and .NET is... well, without it I'd either not be as efficient a developer or I wouldn't be employed at all. As far as the real deep stuff (WDF) goes, that's outside my purview so I really couldn't say. But overall, I'd have to say that Microsoft (for all its many other faults) has actually done a pretty good job of empowering developers to write solid Windows apps. Now whether those developers actually do that or not is another story...

... And we're getting close to "Technical Corner" geekery and I can hear the snores from the non-geeks so I'll leave it at that.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Bump! Oh, how fun old threads can be.

Of course, you have to deal with Cingular's EDGE network (Read: as if your phone had 2 56K modems) instead of a real data network, but hey, I'm sure it'll sell like hotcakes.

HAHAHA!!! And, Mr. Barnhill was the one who jumped on the board and started the "I got an iPhone!" thread the first day the phone was out. And get it right - EDGE is like 4 56K modems. But it's really plenty fast for most of what I do, which is why I haven't upgraded to the 3G iPhone.

It's the same old Jobs Reality Distortion Field... Had any other company come out with the exact same product, exact same features, exact same cost, exact same reliability, exact same everything, nobody would've said boo about it. But it's Apple, so of course it necessitates a news flash on CNBC. Whatever.

Yeah, the point is, nobody DOES come out with the same product/features/cost/reliability and most importantly coolness factor and easy UI, or they'd be getting the fanatical news coverage too. And FWIW, I got so sick of the phrase "3G iPhone" before it came out...

But even if it weren't Apple, my opinion would be the same: No keyboard, no way. My advice would be to dump AAPL now before everybody realizes, gee, it's just a lot of hype and the iPhone sure ain't no BlackBerry killer.

Hmmm...

AAPL is 104.23 as I write this.

And $164.48 as I write this. Terrible investment! And it did get over $200 briefly around the end of last year.

And of course, it's a nice looking phone with the glossy exterior, but how will it react to the first time you drop it? Seriously, that's one thing I can't stand about new phones... they make them glossy and shiny and yet if you were to accidentally drop it, the best you can hope for is a gash in that glossy finish. So you've gotta wrap it in an ugly shell or faux leather case.

I've dropped mine more times than I can count. They're not perfectly invincible, and they are WAY too easy to drop (at least the 1st-gen aluminum-case ones are) which is why I put a case on it - Not to protect it from the ground, but to make it easier to grip! But I do drop it on purpose just as soon as anyone tells me how fragile it is, and I will purposely try to scratch the screen with a key too - It just doesn't scratch. It's by far the most durable phone I've ever owned.

 

[SkyHog]

Edfred linked it, I can revive it!

I'm calling a victory on my prediction. The iPhone succeeded, but only by DRASTICALLY slicing its price (which I predicted).

It added features that were necessary, like the ability to sync with exchange....

edit: aw...weak, Kent beat me.

 

[ScottM]

Edfred linked it, I can revive it!

I'm calling a victory on my prediction. The iPhone succeeded, but only by DRASTICALLY slicing its price (which I predicted).

It added features that were necessary, like the ability to sync with exchange....

edit: aw...weak, Kent beat me.

I heard a report today that the iPhone competitors are out selling iPhone right now.

I am not sure if that is units for the month or quarter. I know it is not total units to date though.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Yeah, the point is, nobody DOES come out with the same product/features/cost/reliability and most importantly coolness factor and easy UI, or they'd be getting the fanatical news coverage too. And FWIW, I got so sick of the phrase "3G iPhone" before it came out...

I really do disagree. AAPL has become an entity that is a legendary marketing company first, a very good design shop second, and a decent but hardly groundbreaking technology company third. Maybe nobody else could design a product like the iPhone. Maybe. Certainly nobody else could market it as well. But from a technology standpoint, basically anybody could build the thing. ANYbody.

Hmmm...

And $164.48 as I write this. Terrible investment! And it did get over $200 briefly around the end of last year.

Ehh... Yeah, now you see why I'm not a financial adviser!

But the reality is, though, that in the smartphone market, RIM still enjoys twice the market share of the iPhone. So my prediction about the business market is absolutely true: the Blackberry is still trouncing the iPhone in market share. There's just no way around it, and AAPL hasn't been able to knock it down, let alone out, even after releasing a "new" (although there's hardly anything "new" about the 3G IMO) model and slashing the price. That's not really a track record to hang one's hat on, and probably has a lot to do with why AAPL isn't trading above $200 anymore.

 

[Everskyward]

Bump! Oh, how fun old threads can be.

Yup. I never even read this thread the first time because I had no interest in iPhones. What a difference a year makes. I went out and bought one yesterday. Now I need to figure out how to use it.

I'm calling a victory on my prediction. The iPhone succeeded, but only by DRASTICALLY slicing its price (which I predicted).

I would not have bought one at $500.

I heard a report today that the iPhone competitors are out selling iPhone right now.

That may be because they are a PITA to buy. The only reason that I ended up with one yesterday is that I had an early morning trip that cancelled so I was in town early with nothing to do. I remembered that the Apple store at Park Meadows opens at 0800 for iPhone sales. I was there at about 0815 and there was already a line. I didn't care because I had the whole day to kill but some people left when they found out about the wait. As it was I got the last 8GB phone they had that day. All the rest were the 16GB which are $100 more.

The other factor is that some people don't want to change their service to AT&T. I already have AT&T and was eligible for an upgrade. My flying buddy wanted to stick to Verizon so he bought Verizon's version made by LG.

 

[gkainz]

I heard the KOOL 105.1 dj on radio the other day who stood in line at Park Meadows for two iphones - a 16g for her and an 8g for her hubby. The clerk retrieved and rang up 2 16g phones. Instead of voiding the sale and undoing all the hoopla or whatever they had already done (set up and register the phones, transfer the numbers, etc) the manager came over and gave them the 16g for the 8g price.

 

[flyersfan31]

I got one due in no small part to Kent's iEvangelism. I haven't looked back. Best phone I've ever had. If Microsoft could ever figure out how to make stuff user-friendly like Apple does they'd rule the world. They're kinda close now as it is.

 

[mikea]

Edfred linked it, I can revive it!

I'm calling a victory on my prediction. The iPhone succeeded, but only by DRASTICALLY slicing its price (which I predicted).

It added features that were necessary, like the ability to sync with exchange....

edit: aw...weak, Kent beat me.

Yeah, Nick like they didn't sell iPhones at all until the price on the 3G dropped two weeks ago.

 

[mikea]

But the reality is, though, that in the smartphone market, RIM still enjoys twice the market share of the iPhone. So my prediction about the business market is absolutely true: the Blackberry is still trouncing the iPhone in market share. There's just no way around it, and AAPL hasn't been able to knock it down, let alone out, even after releasing a "new" (although there's hardly anything "new" about the 3G IMO) model and slashing the price. That's not really a track record to hang one's hat on, and probably has a lot to do with why AAPL isn't trading above $200 anymore.

Another one. THAT APPL can't get the market share that RIM got in 8 years with a new product in 11 days....1 year for the original version. Short the stock!

Once again... You hear that anything on the iPhone doesn't work? How aobut when it first came out? How'd ya think it'd go if it came from Microsoft?

I know. I have Windows Mobile VERSION 6 and the stoopid thing still pops up a window to ask me if I want to connect when I enter a phone number and press [Call]. No, Bill, I just wanted to watch the pretty numbers dance on the screen.

 

[mikea]

Wow! Thanks for the financial advice.

AAPL is 104.23 as I write this.

I'll buy 25 shares of AAPL from you on October 1, 2007 at that price. Wanna cover me? Anyone? That's a lot of money for a company in that will be in dumper by then. That's a full 3 months after the iPhone will tank.

Somebody look up what AAPL closed at on 10/1/2007.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Another one. THAT APPL can't get the market share that RIM got in 8 years with a new product in 11 days....1 year for the original version. Short the stock!

I'm not saying it hasn't done well, just that it hasn't been the "Blackberry killer" that a bunch of the pundits were saying it would be... It hasn't gotten any real traction in the business market. Could change with the Exchange functionality, but so far...

Once again... You hear that anything on the iPhone doesn't work? How aobut when it first came out? How'd ya think it'd go if it came from Microsoft?

I know. I have Windows Mobile VERSION 6 and the stoopid thing still pops up a window to ask me if I want to connect when I enter a phone number and press [Call]. No, Bill, I just wanted to watch the pretty numbers dance on the screen.

Oh, don't get me wrong: You won't hear me say it's a bad product. Just that, as is often the case, while it's wildly successful, its success hasn't really matched the hype that preceded it.

 

[rpadula]

I'm not saying it hasn't done well, just that it hasn't been the "Blackberry killer" that a bunch of the pundits were saying it would be... It hasn't gotten any real traction in the business market. Could change with the Exchange functionality, but so far...

That, and RIM hasn't exactly been sitting around with their thumbs you-know-where. They've produced some nice BB models since iPhone 1.0, and it looks like they may have a winner with the upcoming Bold.

Just that, as is often the case, while it's wildly successful, its success hasn't really matched the hype that preceded it.

Segway anyone?

-Rich

 

[mikea]

Segway anyone?

Now THAT'S one! I was SURE that every twin driver would have one stowed in the back.

It needed to be $1500 instead of $3500.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'm calling a victory on my prediction. The iPhone succeeded, but only by DRASTICALLY slicing its price (which I predicted).

Hmmm... They sold a boatload of 'em at $599, though not as many as they'd have probably liked. They sold a boatload more at $399, and now they're going to sell my proverbial metric assload of 'em at $199. That's pretty standard with tech, Nick... Don't go so far out on a limb next time.

It added features that were necessary, like the ability to sync with exchange....

That should start to give it some traction in the business market. I wonder what Ballmer thinks of it now...

edit: aw...weak, Kent beat me.

Ah, don't worry about it. I'm just surprised that Scott didn't beat us both, he's the old-thread-revival champion!

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I heard a report today that the iPhone competitors are out selling iPhone right now.

I am not sure if that is units for the month or quarter. I know it is not total units to date though.

Gee, ya think? Seems they can't make 'em fast enough. It's been almost a month now and still people are waiting in lines for them. If they could make them fast enough to keep up with the worldwide demand, they'd be doing even better.

As it is, there are a lot of "competitors" in the market, so you could say that any phone's competitors are outselling it.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I really do disagree. AAPL has become an entity that is a legendary marketing company first, a very good design shop second, and a decent but hardly groundbreaking technology company third. Maybe nobody else could design a product like the iPhone. Maybe. Certainly nobody else could market it as well. But from a technology standpoint, basically anybody could build the thing. ANYbody.

Sorry man, calling Apple a "legendary marketing company" made me fall off my chair laughing. They're better than they used to be - There was a point where they couldn't have sold food to Ethiopians - But they're far from good at marketing. Apple's BEST marketing is word-of-mouth from satisfied customers, who then are labeled "fanboys." Their actual corporate marketing is still fairly average, IMHO.

Good hardware design certainly sells some units (especially to the better-looking half of the population), but it really is great user interface design that does the trick. As EdFred or Nick or someone pointed out a year ago, other phones have the same features the iPhone does - Technically, anyway. I even admitted at the time that my previous phone, a Sony Ericsson W600i, technically could check off the same boxes as the iPhone.

But, it's not about the features. It's the interface, stupid! I bought the Sony Ericsson because of the features, but I hardly ever used any of them because it was a pain in the butt. The iPhone is super easy to use, so I actually USE all the features. There's a HUGE difference there.

But yes, there is some groundbreaking technology there. There's a reason they have over 200 patents on the original iPhone.

But the reality is, though, that in the smartphone market, RIM still enjoys twice the market share of the iPhone.

Or, put another way, the iPhone has gobbled up a third of RIM's massive market share in only a year.

So my prediction about the business market is absolutely true: the Blackberry is still trouncing the iPhone in market share.

The business-focused functionality just came out under a month ago. Give it another year or two, and RIM may be the next Palm.

That's not really a track record to hang one's hat on, and probably has a lot to do with why AAPL isn't trading above $200 anymore.

AAPL has gone with the rest of the market, mostly. As an Apple stockholder, I've watched it pretty closely... And the iPhone has not had ANY negative effect on the stock price. Frankly, Wall Street makes no sense sometimes. One of Apple's biggest stock price drops came immediately after they'd announced their biggest quarter ever, by far, and exceeding expectations for sales of Macs, iPods, AND iPhones. I guess the market must feel that such growth is unsustainable or something.

 

[Sam D]

the Blackberry is still trouncing the iPhone in market share. There's just no way around it, and AAPL hasn't been able to knock it down, let alone out, even after releasing a "new" (although there's hardly anything "new" about the 3G IMO) model and slashing the price.

I think you'll see this begin to change. My company, with 10k+ employees has completed testing on the phone to see if it will work with exchange and meet our security requirements. That part is done. Now, we're working through negotiations with AT&T. Once that is complete, every employee is going to be given the option of having this phone -- even though the plan is more expensive than blackberry. Reason -- we complete heavily for Gen X talent. Me? I still think I need a keyboard. But I think I'm in the minority. I can't think we're alone.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I got one due in no small part to Kent's iEvangelism.

Oh, the pressure! It was the key on the screen thing, wasn't it?

I haven't looked back. Best phone I've ever had.

Glad to hear it! And the "best phone I've ever had" line has been said by many, myself included.

If Microsoft could ever figure out how to make stuff user-friendly like Apple does they'd rule the world.

Andrew gets it... Once again... "It's the interface, stupid."

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Me? I still think I need a keyboard.

Sam et al,

Here's the secret to the keyboard: Stop correcting your mistakes. Just aim relatively near the letter you want, and the phone is amazingly good at correcting them for you. Some folks claim they can get 40 wpm. I know that once I figured out how to NOT go back as soon as I made a mistake, the on-screen keyboard started working WAY better for me. I once typed a word that was 9 letters long, only got 2 letters right, and the phone knew what word I really wanted. Amazing.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Sorry man, calling Apple a "legendary marketing company" made me fall off my chair laughing. They're better than they used to be - There was a point where they couldn't have sold food to Ethiopians - But they're far from good at marketing. Apple's BEST marketing is word-of-mouth from satisfied customers, who then are labeled "fanboys." Their actual corporate marketing is still fairly average, IMHO.

Good hardware design certainly sells some units (especially to the better-looking half of the population), but it really is great user interface design that does the trick. As EdFred or Nick or someone pointed out a year ago, other phones have the same features the iPhone does - Technically, anyway. I even admitted at the time that my previous phone, a Sony Ericsson W600i, technically could check off the same boxes as the iPhone.

But, it's not about the features. It's the interface, stupid! I bought the Sony Ericsson because of the features, but I hardly ever used any of them because it was a pain in the butt. The iPhone is super easy to use, so I actually USE all the features. There's a HUGE difference there.

But yes, there is some groundbreaking technology there. There's a reason they have over 200 patents on the original iPhone.

But again, none of that is "revolutionary", and little about it is even "groundbreaking" (and a patent count isn't exactly a good measure of "groundbreaking"-ness... Last year, IBM received 200 patents. It received about 200 patents every 23 days). But that's all we heard in the hype about it... Revolutionary, revolutionary, revolutionary. I'm sorry, but taking an existing feature set (and as you mentioned, at least several other phones had the same, or more, or better features) and slapping an interface on it is not "revolutionary" -- even if that interface is reaaaaaaaaaly cool. My beef isn't about Apple vs. Microsoft or Apple vs. Motorola or Apple vs. RIM. My beef -- as I keep saying -- is with iPhone hype vs. iPhone reality. The two just don't match up and never have... That's all I'm saying.

But the hype continues still. What is that a result of? Not just good design, although that's a small part of it. Not new technology; as you mention, there wasn't really anything "new". It's marketing, period. It's not like in the music player space, where Apple's products are dramatically better in design, feature set, and interface than all their competitors. So there's obivously something else at work there.

Or, put another way, the iPhone has gobbled up a third of RIM's massive market share in only a year.

Not exactly... The smartphone space has grown as a result of iPhone sales, even though lots of people who have an iPhone don't use it as one. Put another way, plenty of the people who bought an iPhone are now counted as smartphone users, even though they had no intention of using typical smartphone features.

The business-focused functionality just came out under a month ago. Give it another year or two, and RIM may be the next Palm.

We'll see. If I'm RIM, though, I'm not too worried.

AAPL has gone with the rest of the market, mostly. As an Apple stockholder, I've watched it pretty closely... And the iPhone has not had ANY negative effect on the stock price. Frankly, Wall Street makes no sense sometimes. One of Apple's biggest stock price drops came immediately after they'd announced their biggest quarter ever, by far, and exceeding expectations for sales of Macs, iPods, AND iPhones. I guess the market must feel that such growth is unsustainable or something.

Hard to say, but some of that could have to do with the Air's disappointment.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

I think you'll see this begin to change. My company, with 10k+ employees has completed testing on the phone to see if it will work with exchange and meet our security requirements. That part is done. Now, we're working through negotiations with AT&T. Once that is complete, every employee is going to be given the option of having this phone -- even though the plan is more expensive than blackberry. Reason -- we complete heavily for Gen X talent. Me? I still think I need a keyboard. But I think I'm in the minority. I can't think we're alone.

That's not surprising, and I won't be surprised if the iPhone does make some more inroads into that space. But, like computer sales, I don't see it becoming the dominant player... It's a niche product.

And I'm with you on the keyboard...

Sam et al,

Here's the secret to the keyboard: Stop correcting your mistakes. Just aim relatively near the letter you want, and the phone is amazingly good at correcting them for you. Some folks claim they can get 40 wpm. I know that once I figured out how to NOT go back as soon as I made a mistake, the on-screen keyboard started working WAY better for me. I once typed a word that was 9 letters long, only got 2 letters right, and the phone knew what word I really wanted. Amazing.

Meh... I dunno. That might be fine for the typical "lol omg wtf d00d" SMSers out there, but for most business types who write emails in which spelling and such is important, there's simply no substitute for a real, physical QWERTY keyboard.

Edit: Now if they could come up with a good way of implementing some kind of tactile keyboard in the iPhone interface as it is, that would be revolutionary and groundbreaking.

 

[astanley]

I got one due in no small part to Kent's iEvangelism. I haven't looked back. Best phone I've ever had. If Microsoft could ever figure out how to make stuff user-friendly like Apple does they'd rule the world. They're kinda close now as it is.

If it had a usable keyboard for the 50+ emails I write from my BlackBerry a day... I'd own one. But, they don't, and I'm not using a soft-keyboard.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[ScottM]

If it had a usable keyboard for the 50+ emails I write from my BlackBerry a day... I'd own one. But, they don't, and I'm not using a soft-keyboard.

Cheers,

-Andrew

The soft keyboard is really easy to use. Easier than the one on my Q. I often will switch to my iTouch to read and enter PoA posting than use the Q.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

The soft keyboard is really easy to use. Easier than the one on my Q. I often will switch to my iTouch to read and enter PoA posting than use the Q.

Scott, no offense man, but your posts do have something of a tendency to be, er, creatively spelled sometimes. I'll happily chalk that up to the iTouch's keyboard, though.

And FWIW, I also have an iTouch. I'm a fan, overall... The only thing that I don't like about it is the keyboard (which I rarely use, anyway).

 

[mantakos]

I have an HTC Mogul with a slide-out keyboard, and an ipod touch.

In my opinion, the full "landscape mode" qwerty keyboard of the HTC mogul soundly beats the apple soft keyboard, which soundly beats the miniscule qwerty keyboards you find on Moto Q or some Blackberries, which soundly beat any keyboard with multiple letters mapped to the same key.

The apple soft keyboard is much more useable in landscape mode, but curiously, very few iphone apps support landscape mode, other than Safari, even the standard "from Apple" apps. Meanwhile, virtually every Windows Mobile app, from MS or a third-party, supports seamless swapping between portrait and landscape mode.

Some of the differences are nearly "cultural". The apple encourages "type away, we'll fix it for you", which takes some getting used to. In particular, this encourages "type the whole damn thing, then go back and figure out what it got wrong". Unfortunately, I don't think the Apple interface is very easy to use for corrections, as compared to a full qwerty keyboard with cursor keys. Another problem is that this correction capability varies from app to app, some don't have it.

The apple encourages use without a stylus, so it responds well to "fat finger touches". This works well for gui buttons, scrolling, etc, but has an "imprecise" feeling when working with fine text. The Windows device expects a stylus, doesn't respond well to fat finger touching (you really need to tap with your fingernail), and really requires (and provides) cursor keys for navigation.

What apple did right is figure out that _THE_ big limitation on these devices is screen size, so they put a bigger and higher resolution screen, and came up with an elegant way of navigating around a screen. After using web browsing on the ipod touch, I don't want to use the browser on the Windows phone any more. The Apple made me realize how painful the Windows browser interface (both IE and Opera) are.

I do a fair amount of typing on my phone, and not just email/texting, but taking notes, and typing away at a command-line, and this is really the only area in which the HTC beats the Apple, but it's a pretty important one, unfortunately. Of course, I haven't really "tried my best" to find the best note composition app for the Apple, one that seamlessly switches between portrait and landscape, that supports auto-correct, that allows for zooming via multi-touch, one that doesn't try to use some cute hand-writing font, etc.
-harry

 

[ReverendSlappy]

I have an HTC Mogul with a slide-out keyboard, and an ipod touch.

In my opinion, the full "landscape mode" qwerty keyboard of the HTC mogul soundly beats the apple soft keyboard, which soundly beats the miniscule qwerty keyboards you find on Moto Q or some Blackberries, which soundly beat any keyboard with multiple letters mapped to the same key.

The apple soft keyboard is much more useable in landscape mode, but curiously, very few iphone apps support landscape mode, other than Safari, even the standard "from Apple" apps. Meanwhile, virtually every Windows Mobile app, from MS or a third-party, supports seamless swapping between portrait and landscape mode.

Some of the differences are nearly "cultural". The apple encourages "type away, we'll fix it for you", which takes some getting used to. In particular, this encourages "type the whole damn thing, then go back and figure out what it got wrong". Unfortunately, I don't think the Apple interface is very easy to use for corrections, as compared to a full qwerty keyboard with cursor keys. Another problem is that this correction capability varies from app to app, some don't have it.

The apple encourages use without a stylus, so it responds well to "fat finger touches". This works well for gui buttons, scrolling, etc, but has an "imprecise" feeling when working with fine text. The Windows device expects a stylus, doesn't respond well to fat finger touching (you really need to tap with your fingernail), and really requires (and provides) cursor keys for navigation.

What apple did right is figure out that _THE_ big limitation on these devices is screen size, so they put a bigger and higher resolution screen, and came up with an elegant way of navigating around a screen. After using web browsing on the ipod touch, I don't want to use the browser on the Windows phone any more. The Apple made me realize how painful the Windows browser interface (both IE and Opera) are.

I do a fair amount of typing on my phone, and not just email/texting, but taking notes, and typing away at a command-line, and this is really the only area in which the HTC beats the Apple, but it's a pretty important one, unfortunately. Of course, I haven't really "tried my best" to find the best note composition app for the Apple, one that seamlessly switches between portrait and landscape, that supports auto-correct, that allows for zooming via multi-touch, one that doesn't try to use some cute hand-writing font, etc.
-harry

I agree with pretty much all of that. I'll just reiterate what you said about the browser: It beats -- hands-down -- any of the other browsers on similar devices. On that part Apple, is head-and-shoulders above the competition, for sure.

 

[jmaynard]

I agree with pretty much all of that. I'll just reiterate what you said about the browser: It beats -- hands-down -- any of the other browsers on similar devices. On that part Apple, is head-and-shoulders above the competition, for sure.

I'll go farther: Safari on the iPhone is so far ahead that there is no competition. It makes using the Web from a cellphone possible. I used to swear by the Treo 650/680. No longer. Until you've used a real web browser on your phone, you haven't used the web on your phone. It's that different.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

I'll go farther: Safari on the iPhone is so far ahead that there is no competition. It makes using the Web from a cellphone possible. I used to swear by the Treo 650/680. No longer. Until you've used a real web browser on your phone, you haven't used the web on your phone. It's that different.

Ehh, I think that's overstating it a little, but hey, whatever floats yer boat.

 

[ScottM]

Ehh, I think that's overstating it a little, but hey, whatever floats yer boat.

M$ mobile IE sucks, Opera is bearable but Safari on the iTouch is great.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

M$ mobile IE sucks, Opera is bearable but Safari on the iTouch is great.

Yeah, that's about how I'd sum it up.

 

[mikea]

I have an HTC Mogul with a slide-out keyboard, and an ipod touch.

In my opinion, the full "landscape mode" qwerty keyboard of the HTC mogul soundly beats the apple soft keyboard, which soundly beats the miniscule qwerty keyboards you find on Moto Q or some Blackberries, which soundly beat any keyboard with multiple letters mapped to the same key.
...

I do a fair amount of typing on my phone, and not just email/texting, but taking notes, and typing away at a command-line, and this is really the only area in which the HTC beats the Apple, but it's a pretty important one, unfortunately. Of course, I haven't really "tried my best" to find the best note composition app for the Apple, one that seamlessly switches between portrait and landscape, that supports auto-correct, that allows for zooming via multi-touch, one that doesn't try to use some cute hand-writing font, etc.
-harry

Mine is an HTC Tynan. I found it easier to call up the on-screen keyboard and use the stylus than using the slide-out mechanical keyboard. What drives me nuts in both cases is the double-triple-function-shift-clutch you have to do to get non-alpha chars and numbers.

I've had enough practice that I don't think it's am matter of getting used to it. I will admit the difficulty may be my fat fingers. know the iPhone UI would be easier for me, and the web browser functionality is light years ahead.

It would be nice if iPhone ver. 3 or 4 would talk to a Bluetooth keyboard. That would absolutely open the possibilities for more creative portable PDA keyboards like the one that uses a laser so you can type on a nearby flat surface. Alas, Apple prolly only would allow that if they could OEM one in matching Apple white.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

But that's all we heard in the hype about it... Revolutionary, revolutionary, revolutionary. I'm sorry, but taking an existing feature set (and as you mentioned, at least several other phones had the same, or more, or better features) and slapping an interface on it is not "revolutionary" -- even if that interface is reaaaaaaaaaly cool.

The accelerometer and other sensors are... Most of the individual features are not. It's the whole package that is.

It's marketing, period.

No, really. Tell me exactly what *Apple* is doing to market the iPhone? I've seen a couple of TV ads, but they don't have much energy and simply show some of the features of the phone (which means it's not marketing, but design.) There's tons of hype, sure, but that doesn't come from Apple.

It's not like in the music player space, where Apple's products are dramatically better in design, feature set, and interface than all their competitors.

It's not? The iPhone *is* dramatically better in design than the competitors. The iPhone *is* dramatically better in interface than the competitors. When you look at the "checkbox items" for the feature set - Sure, plenty of other phones play MP3's and whatnot - It looks similar. But as others have stated, the web browsing is WAY better. As for MP3's, they're easy to find and play, and there are many little detail features that'll never make a feature list. For example, if you drop your phone or your headphones come unplugged for any other reason, the music will automatically pause. It's all those little details that really make the difference. When you count them, the iPhone does have a dramatically better feature set.

Put another way, plenty of the people who bought an iPhone are now counted as smartphone users, even though they had no intention of using typical smartphone features.

I'd buy that. But, there are a lot of ex-Blackberry folks with iPhones as well.

We'll see. If I'm RIM, though, I'm not too worried.

And now we know why you aren't RIM.

Hard to say, but some of that could have to do with the Air's disappointment.

Disappointment? Sure, *I* wish it had a touchscreen, but the Air is a product that must be seen for what it is: A second computer. Anyone who buys an Air as their sole computer will be disappointed. However, I'm thinking seriously of going back to the desktop/laptop combo next time I upgrade - An iMac plus an Air would make an EXCELLENT combo.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Meh... I dunno. That might be fine for the typical "lol omg wtf d00d" SMSers out there, but for most business types who write emails in which spelling and such is important, there's simply no substitute for a real, physical QWERTY keyboard.

Actually for the "lol omg wtf" stuff, the iPhone sucks. While I have those plugged into it now, it's really looking for real words, so on the rare occasions that I do use text message abbreviations, it often tries to change them to real words. If spelling is important, the iPhone is excellent - It won't let you type a word that's not in the dictionary without touching the little "x" to reject its correction!

Edit: Now if they could come up with a good way of implementing some kind of tactile keyboard in the iPhone interface as it is, that would be revolutionary and groundbreaking.

They're already working on that. It may be gen 4 before we see it, but it's coming.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

The accelerometer and other sensors are... Most of the individual features are not. It's the whole package that is.

I wouldn't say that... The Wii, for example, had been a known quantity for quite some time before the iPhone was being talked about, and was on sale for, what, a year before the iPhone was? And accelerometers have been in use for technology purposes for years (I'm thinking of those silly old VR goggles and hand-things as just the first example that popped into my head)... ho-hum. Glomming that on top of the other stuff isn't "revolutionary" or "groundbreaking" by any stretch of the imagination.

No, really. Tell me exactly what *Apple* is doing to market the iPhone? I've seen a couple of TV ads, but they don't have much energy and simply show some of the features of the phone (which means it's not marketing, but design.) There's tons of hype, sure, but that doesn't come from Apple.

The ads aren't anything special. But the hype is absolutely manufactured: Every leak, every hint, every whisper about specs, features, etc. before the release... none of that is accidental.

And the hype "doesn't come from Apple"? Jobs calls it "revolutionary" 20 seconds into its announcement (and uses the word, what, at least 3 times) and -- even more ridiculously -- compares it to the Macintosh. The Mac is revolutionary. Bigtime. The iPhone? It's a well-designed logical progression, nothing "revolutionary". Period.

It's not? The iPhone *is* dramatically better in design than the competitors. The iPhone *is* dramatically better in interface than the competitors. When you look at the "checkbox items" for the feature set - Sure, plenty of other phones play MP3's and whatnot - It looks similar. But as others have stated, the web browsing is WAY better. As for MP3's, they're easy to find and play, and there are many little detail features that'll never make a feature list. For example, if you drop your phone or your headphones come unplugged for any other reason, the music will automatically pause. It's all those little details that really make the difference. When you count them, the iPhone does have a dramatically better feature set.

But again, there's a difference between putting better tires on a wheel and... coming up with the wheel. Jobs and Apple have always claimed to be doing the latter -- and in some cases like the Mac, they have -- when they're really doing the former. None of that is "revolutionary" or even really all that special: It's taking what's there and doing it better (in some cases). Commendable? Sure. Impressive? In some aspects, yeah. "Revolutionary"? "Groundbreaking"? <Insert ridiculous hype here>? Mmmyeah, no. Not even close. Some of it even strikes me as gimmicky.

I'd buy that. But, there are a lot of ex-Blackberry folks with iPhones as well.

Oh sure. No doubt they've taken some business away from RIM et. al. But it's still a niche product, and I don't see that changing -- at least not anytime soon.

And now we know why you aren't RIM.

Like I say, though: Worried? Sure, gotta keep up with the Joneses. But should they get really concerned and, for example, start monkeying with the formula that was and continues to be a winner? Nah. The two products serve the needs of two different audiences.

Disappointment? Sure, *I* wish it had a touchscreen, but the Air is a product that must be seen for what it is: A second computer. Anyone who buys an Air as their sole computer will be disappointed. However, I'm thinking seriously of going back to the desktop/laptop combo next time I upgrade - An iMac plus an Air would make an EXCELLENT combo.

I can see that. Though you're talking about some pretty serious coin.

 

[ReverendSlappy]

Actually for the "lol omg wtf" stuff, the iPhone sucks. While I have those plugged into it now, it's really looking for real words, so on the rare occasions that I do use text message abbreviations, it often tries to change them to real words. If spelling is important, the iPhone is excellent - It won't let you type a word that's not in the dictionary without touching the little "x" to reject its correction!

And without a physical keyboard, that winds up being incredibly annoying and counterproductive. Harry nailed it above: There's just not (yet) any substitute for a full, well-done, physical QWERTY keyboard. I wanna type the word I want to type, not type something and then choose from a list.

They're already working on that. It may be gen 4 before we see it, but it's coming.

We'll see.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And without a physical keyboard, that winds up being incredibly annoying and counterproductive. Harry nailed it above: There's just not (yet) any substitute for a full, well-done, physical QWERTY keyboard. I wanna type the word I want to type, not type something and then choose from a list.

It's NOT a list. It's a word. One. You don't have to choose the word - If you hit space, or period, or any other character that signals termination of a word, the "corrected" word is automatically inserted. All you do is type. On the occasions that you really did want what you typed, you just hit the little "x" next to the word. After you've done that twice, the word is automatically added to the dictionary.

Try it before you rip on it. There are a LOT of people saying they can type a lot faster on the iPhone than they could on their crackberry.

 

[astanley]

The soft keyboard is really easy to use. Easier than the one on my Q. I often will switch to my iTouch to read and enter PoA posting than use the Q.

See, I can type one-handed under a conference table during a meeting and be nearly flawless. Soft keyboard isn't going to do that for me...

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[ReverendSlappy]

It's NOT a list. It's a word. One. You don't have to choose the word - If you hit space, or period, or any other character that signals termination of a word, the "corrected" word is automatically inserted. All you do is type. On the occasions that you really did want what you typed, you just hit the little "x" next to the word. After you've done that twice, the word is automatically added to the dictionary.

Try it before you rip on it. There are a LOT of people saying they can type a lot faster on the iPhone than they could on their crackberry.

I've tried it... And you're right, it's not a list. But still, that's less than ideal, IMO, than having a physical keyboard, which basically eliminates the need for anything like that in the first place.

It's not horrible. It's just not as good as a physical QWERTY keyboard.