Bad Day around the ADIZ

Kaye

Kaye

Line Up and Wait
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Needed to take the Trinnie for a ride since it had an oil change this past week, and I've got an upcoming trip. When looking at DUATs this morning, I saw the expanded P40 as expected, but was surprised by an additional TFR that was slightly askew of P40 and sucked in 30 miles instead of the usual 10 miles around P40. It was bumping up against the north side of the Leesburg ADIZ cut-out, and basically blocking any access to the north-northeast. Even tho I was headed west, it made me nervous enough to call the FSS.

The grumpy dude at FSS confirmed my assessment of the TFR, and I headed out on my westerly flight, monitoring 121.5. Holy crapola, there was more activity on this freq than any of the CTAFs I played in today. Many busts occurred in the 1.5 hrs I was in the air including a fighter jet being deployed.

This all still amazes me...................:(
 
That's why I stay the heck away from up there, Kaye - they change things at the drop of a hat and ruin you if you don't keep up... :(
 
I haven't looked at the TFR's today, but I believe this was because President Bush left the confines of Camp David (the reason for the expanded P40) and went to Emmitsburg, MD for a ceremony at the National Firefighters' Memorial. I did get my usual emails showing that the TFR for Emmitsburg was activated and then later deactivated today. The Frederick area is typically a busy place on weekends, but I imagine it was even more so today with the additional "squeezing" of FDK between the P40 and Emmitsburg TFR's and the the ADIZ.

Me thinks it's time to move out west somewhere. :)
 
JaxOli said:
I haven't looked at the TFR's today, but I believe this was because President Bush left the confines of Camp David (the reason for the expanded P40) and went to Emmitsburg, MD for a ceremony at the National Firefighters' Memorial. I did get my usual emails showing that the TFR for Emmitsburg was activated and then later deactivated today. The Frederick area is typically a busy place on weekends, but I imagine it was even more so today with the additional "squeezing" of FDK between the P40 and Emmitsburg TFR's and the the ADIZ.

Me thinks it's time to move out west somewhere. :)
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Yep, that was the one. I get my email alerts at work, so I didn't have this one. I wonder if AOPA can hand two email alert addresses....

And there was no squeezing at FDK....if you weren't IFR, you better not be in the air. Did hear from a friend that was IFR and he said ATC was having the grumbles.....
 
Kaye said:
Yep, that was the one. I get my email alerts at work, so I didn't have this one. I wonder if AOPA can hand two email alert addresses....
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I don't know why, but I get the email alerts quicker from http://www.weathermeister.com/

For the TFR's this weekend, I got the one from weathermeister.com on Thursdayat 11:27am and the one from AOPA on Friday at 4:07pm. I haven't looked back to see if this is typical or not.
 
Broadcast radio reported 11 violations resulting in force-downs, including a couple of F-16 scrambles.

The government needs to do better, but so do pilots.

Reminds me that I need to get an IPC (and find an instructor so inclined) now that I've got the plane in DC.
 
What needs to change is the sense of entitlement that comes with a federal job. Everyone, and I mean everyone can be easiley replaced. However, the concepts of the constitution are being eroded day after day by an inept plutocrat.
 
The Emmitsburg ADIZ FDC NOTAM was issued middle of last week, and has been showing up on all the various providers' TFR graphics since then, as well as in the DUATS briefings with any point anywhere within at least 100nm of the area, so I can't see any excuse for a pilot not knowing about it. Other than having someone sitting in the run-up area of every runway at every airport within fuel range of Emmitsburg with a big sign saying "THERE'S A BIG TFR ON THE MARYLAND-PENNSYLVANIA BORDER IN ADDITION TO EXPANDED P-40 THIS WEEKEND -- CHECK NOTAMS!," I just don't see what more the FAA could have done.
 
Ron Levy said:
The Emmitsburg ADIZ FDC NOTAM was issued middle of last week, and has been showing up on all the various providers' TFR graphics since then, as well as in the DUATS briefings with any point anywhere within at least 100nm of the area, so I can't see any excuse for a pilot not knowing about it. Other than having someone sitting in the run-up area of every runway at every airport within fuel range of Emmitsburg with a big sign saying "THERE'S A BIG TFR ON THE MARYLAND-PENNSYLVANIA BORDER IN ADDITION TO EXPANDED P-40 THIS WEEKEND -- CHECK NOTAMS!," I just don't see what more the FAA could have done.
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My FBO does virtually that. The latest TFR for George's Labor Day Maine visit had 4 copies at the Pilots station, one on the bulletin board, and several at the desk. Anyone who even implied a trip in that general direction got a less than tacit reminder. It's up to ALL of us. No reason not to talk it up. Someone doesn't like the reminder, too bad. He screws up it might not just be HIS liberty that gets lost.
 
etsisk said:
That's why I stay the heck away from up there, Kaye - they change things at the drop of a hat and ruin you if you don't keep up... :(
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The 30 nm TFR was posted days ago. The folks who busted are bozos who failed to get a briefing anytime in the past few days. I hope the FAA yanks their tickets permanently so the rest of us stop getting hit with bad publicity because we can't clean our own ranks.
 
One time I was on a trip to southern Maine and my route took me through the Yankee one and two MOA. The pre flight briefer from Burlington FSS assured me that it was not active that day. I was on flight following both ways and on the way home Portland Approach says Cherokee 41K suggest heading XXX. Yankee MOA is hot. Seems strange but now its best to just use flight following and monitor 121.5 if you are near any of those areas.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/07/national/main3340134.shtml
 
Ron Levy said:
We'd appreciate it if everyone would keep politics in the Spin Zone, and out of Flight Following. Thanks!
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You're welcome, I'm sure. My point is, no TFRs, no TFR busts. You know they are worthless, and cost the country huge amounts of money. If this mixes politics and flight following, I can't see there's anyway to separate it. I also can't seem to stop dangling my modifiers. And thank you for quoting my poli-statment, guaranteeing it will live on in this thread.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
The 30 nm TFR was posted days ago. The folks who busted are bozos who failed to get a briefing anytime in the past few days. I hope the FAA yanks their tickets permanently so the rest of us stop getting hit with bad publicity because we can't clean our own ranks.
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I totally agree, Ed. If someone didn't know about this TFR and busted it, shame on them. It would seem to me that they failed to obtain a proper briefing from an approved (or quasi-approved) site of their choice. I wasn't flying this weekend for different reasons, but I know I got at least 2 emails about the TFR - one from weathermeister.com and another from AOPA. This is without trying to get a briefing from DUAT, DUATS, or FSS - or the graphical TFR link on the AOPA site.

...just my $.02.
 
docmirror said:
My point is, no TFRs, no TFR busts.
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There were TFR's before 9/11, and there will be TFR's long after the current craze passes. They cover firefighting operations, disaster areas, air shows, and a host of other situations in which transient flight operations cause a direct threat to the safety of others. The only difference is that now pilots are (or bloody well should be) a lot more aware of the existence of TFR's, and where and how to find out how to avoid them. Eliminating the "security" TFR's won't change the need for pilots to get a proper brief before flight and to stay out of the many other types of TFR's that will continue to exist, and it won't change how folks like Ed, Jack, and me feel about pilots who don't live up to their responsibilities.
 
JaxOli said:
I totally agree, Ed. If someone didn't know about this TFR and busted it, shame on them. It would seem to me that they failed to obtain a proper briefing from an approved (or quasi-approved) site of their choice. I wasn't flying this weekend for different reasons, but I know I got at least 2 emails about the TFR - one from weathermeister.com and another from AOPA. This is without trying to get a briefing from DUAT, DUATS, or FSS - or the graphical TFR link on the AOPA site.

...just my $.02.
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Just checked my work email....I never got this notification. Now of course, I don't rely on AOPA emails, just like the heads up.
 
Its a pilots fault when he or she can't get through to LM for a briefing, and then gets caught in a useless TFR that can literally change at the whim of one man. Oh, and that can't get flightwatch because no one answers. Yeah, right.

One of the saddest things I ever saw was when Bush made an address in Dayton Ohio to commemorite the birth of powered flight. No one could fly in the birthplace of aviation because of useless security regulations put in place by cowards to regulate the most patriotic citizens of this land. This just doesn't feel like the America with which I grew up.
 
Ron Levy said:
Eliminating the "security" TFR's won't change the need for pilots to get a proper brief before flight and to stay out of the many other types of TFR's that will continue to exist, and it won't change how folks like Ed, Jack, and me feel about pilots who don't live up to their responsibilities.
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Eliminating the useless security or 'VIP' TFRs will eliminate about 90% of the busts in the system. It's a sham, why does Mickey get a TFR, that's in no way temporary? Why does the king deserve a TFR? Manned flight started a few years after our country was born. Now, we have to play 'here's Waldo' with a system of guilty until proven innocent. Way to take a solid stand. And even discussing air shows, and fire fighting is disingenious. Did you not see the topic in the beginning, or every post in this thread? It's all about the king, but we have to 'bow and tremblingly obey' typical.......
 
Ron Levy said:
There were TFR's before 9/11, and there will be TFR's long after the current craze passes. They cover firefighting operations, disaster areas, air shows, and a host of other situations in which transient flight operations cause a direct threat to the safety of others. The only difference is that now pilots are (or bloody well should be) a lot more aware of the existence of TFR's, and where and how to find out how to avoid them. Eliminating the "security" TFR's won't change the need for pilots to get a proper brief before flight and to stay out of the many other types of TFR's that will continue to exist, and it won't change how folks like Ed, Jack, and me feel about pilots who don't live up to their responsibilities.
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Based on what was reported in the Federal Times and discussed at the congressional hearing on the FAA and FSS, apparently LockMart Flight Service failed to tell pilots of the Camp David TFR. Seems to me this is further proof that LockMart can't handle the task and that the FAA should 'own' the problem and the solution. This experiment has FAILED!

http://www.federaltimes.com/index.php?S=3094881
 
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Ed Guthrie said:
The 30 nm TFR was posted days ago. The folks who busted are bozos who failed to get a briefing anytime in the past few days. I hope the FAA yanks their tickets permanently so the rest of us stop getting hit with bad publicity because we can't clean our own ranks.
Click to expand...

silver-eagle said:
Based on what was reported in the Federal Times and discussed at the congressional hearing on the FAA and FSS, apparently LockMart Flight Service failed to tell pilots of the Camp David TFR. Seems to me this is further proof that LockMart can't handle the task and that the FAA should 'own' the problem and the solution. This experiment has FAILED!

http://www.federaltimes.com/index.php?S=3094881
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Still bozos, Ed?
 
silver-eagle said:
Based on what was reported in the Federal Times and discussed at the congressional hearing on the FAA and FSS, apparently LockMart Flight Service failed to tell pilots of the Camp David TFR. Seems to me this is further proof that LockMart can't handle the task and that the FAA should 'own' the problem and the solution. This experiment has FAILED!

http://www.federaltimes.com/index.php?S=3094881
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I'm not sure that one Congressman's unsubstantiated allegation (that's all there is in the linked news item) is proof, but it's definitely worth investigating, and if any of the eleven pilots who were forced down got "standard briefings" from LM personnel without being told of the TFR, then they have my apologies for what I said above. However, if even one of those eleven failed to get a proper briefing (or check one of the appropriate electronic briefing tools), then all I apologize for is getting the number wrong.

Remember, if even one of us screws up, we all suffer consequences -- which is why good pilots don't let bad pilots stay in the air.
 
alaskaflyer said:
Still bozos, Ed?
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See Ron's post, he phrases things nicer than I will.

However, I wouldn't bet on the story--even I knew about the TFR days in advance and I never had the least desire to go flying within several days either side of the TFR's effective date/time--the news was well publicized for all to see.
 
Ed Guthrie said:
See Ron's post, he phrases things nicer than I will.

However, I wouldn't bet on the story--even I knew about the TFR days in advance and I never had the least desire to go flying within several days either side of the TFR's effective date/time--the news was well publicized for all to see.
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It may have been well publicized locally, but not nationally (at least not here in the Midwest) and it's my understanding that at least some of the TFR violators weren't local.
 
There were no 30 Mile TFRs before. The president got one for 1-3 miles as did the Pope when he came to town.
 
Some of the briefers are well informed regarding the ADIZ and local DC TFR's, but if you just call 800 WX Brief, you might get someone in Florida who knows less about local conditions that you do. If you use the phone number for the old Leesburg direct line, you get someone who can handle your ADIZ and FRZ plans and can tell you what is going on around here.

Roger
 
twofivexray said:
Some of the briefers are well informed regarding the ADIZ and local DC TFR's, but if you just call 800 WX Brief, you might get someone in Florida who knows less about local conditions that you do. If you use the phone number for the old Leesburg direct line, you get someone who can handle your ADIZ and FRZ plans and can tell you what is going on around here.
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Good practical advice, but the fact is that no matter what station the LockMart router sends you do, if you are getting a briefing for a flight anywhere with 100nm of any active TFR anywhere in the USA, you should be properly informed. If LockMart failed in that regard, they deserve to be found liable for every penny spend cleaning up the mess they made, including the cost of forcing down pilots who got an incomplete briefing, emotional stress/suffering of those pilots, the cost of the extra fuel they expended, their legal fees, etc. Maybe a big bill for that will wake up LockMart and get them to fix the problems.

OTOH, if any of those 12 pilots failed to get a briefing, let it be on their heads.
 
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