DaleB
Final Approach
He just kind of laughed. Seriously, without the extra input we'd have been fine.
Back in the saddle!
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He just kind of laughed. Seriously, without the extra input we'd have been fine.
DaleB
Final Approach
This morning was clear and calm... around lunch time the wind started. By 3PM it was windy and gusting... got to the airport and it was variable from 290 to 330 degrees (runway is 30), 14 gusting to 23 knots. What a ride. We did a solid hour of T&Gs, all in that x-wind. And, unlike last week, I did pretty well. We had nearly every imaginable nasty gust on final, I kept us on centerline fairly well... always came over the threshold lined up, got it on the mains first all but one time that was a little flat. A big gust just as you start your flare can throw you, but after the first one I was much more ready for it. Drop the nose, let it settle, flare again a little lower this time and we settle onto the mains with the stall horn wailing.
Of the 7 landings we did (a couple were full stop to accommodate other traffic) I'd say 4 were very nice, 2 were OK. The first one, not so much. After that I started using more aileron and a LOT more opposite rudder. I'd have the right wing dipped into the crosswind and at times FULL left rudder. Lotsa fun.
Of the 7 landings we did (a couple were full stop to accommodate other traffic) I'd say 4 were very nice, 2 were OK. The first one, not so much. After that I started using more aileron and a LOT more opposite rudder. I'd have the right wing dipped into the crosswind and at times FULL left rudder. Lotsa fun.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
I don't remember crosswinds like this in my training. Jealous.
DaleB
Final Approach
Pfft. Don't be. I wouldn't wish it on you. To be perfectly honest, on our first takeoff today we got bounced so badly (right over a shopping center parking lot, less than 200 AGL) that I was ready to call it a day right then and there, and told the instructor as much. It was better as we got a little altitude, but we still got thrown around like a pop can in the Pacific. Plus it's like 90 out, field elevation is 1050 but the DA is 3500. We're about 650 AGL, I'm turning left crosswind, airspeed says 95 MPH... and I hear the stall horn. Seriously? Great. Drop the nose, horn stops, a second later ASI says 80 MPH - but we're still fine. It was like that the whole time. I got to where I knew when we were going to get bounced or hear the stall horn beep, just from parking lot and roof thermals.
We put 1.0 on the Hobbs. When I got out of that Cherokee I could have wrung the sweat out of my shirt. Yick. But hey, come on out here, spend a couple of days... you'll get lots of crosswind experience, I guarantee it.
kimberlyanne546
Final Approach
Thanks.
Also, I know what you mean - there were days (pre solo) I actually turned to my CFI and said "can we just go back now" but he wouldn't let me. I'm glad he didn't. I would let really bad flights get to me - he recognized this.
DaleB
Final Approach
You know, in hindsight... on the last 2 landings yesterday I came in high and steep. I wasn't happy with the approach on final. The transition and flare were pretty crappy, which I attribute to a too-steep approach, and things got enough sideways that the CFI felt the need to assist. The wind was shifting and had picked up a little, and was probably close to the limits of what the Cherokee should be landed in, but I feel it would have been much more manageable if I'd come in at a little lower angle or just stretched it a little.
In retrospect... on both of those, if I had been doing it solo - well, the approach would have been shallower to begin with. But even with the same path I would have either shallowed the approach just over the threshold and adjusted my landing target about 50 yards further down, or I'd have gone around. I would NOT have landed the way we did. I only got sucked into them because I had the CFI in the right seat. There is no purpose to be served whatsoever by flying like he's there to fall back on -- so my goal for today is to fly the entire time without him touching the yoke, pedals or throttle once. I've got a two hour block of time reserved, and I'd like to use it all.
In retrospect... on both of those, if I had been doing it solo - well, the approach would have been shallower to begin with. But even with the same path I would have either shallowed the approach just over the threshold and adjusted my landing target about 50 yards further down, or I'd have gone around. I would NOT have landed the way we did. I only got sucked into them because I had the CFI in the right seat. There is no purpose to be served whatsoever by flying like he's there to fall back on -- so my goal for today is to fly the entire time without him touching the yoke, pedals or throttle once. I've got a two hour block of time reserved, and I'd like to use it all.
DaleB
Final Approach
Man, just when you think things are going well.
Showed up today, CFI wanted me to fly with another instructor to get his opinion on whether or not I'm ready to solo.
Not sure I get that... is my CFI not allowed to sign me off? Or does he think I'm that bad off? I dunno. So off we go. Everything is OK, more or less... this guy is REALLY chatty, which is fine, he's making suggestions and I'm paying attention, things like checking out the TC during the first few feet of taxi which no one has ever showed me before but it makes sense. Duh.
Time for our first takeoff. Line up, full throttle, 60 MPH on the ASI and I'm pulling to rotate. CFI complains tha I'm trying to pull it off the runway. Well, yeah, no duh. I hate doing that, but my last two CFIs have bloody well insisted that I rotate the damned plane at 60, so that's what I do. Never mind that I personally feel the T/O sucks doing that. On subsequent runs I let the airplane tell me when it's ready to fly, and we take off smooth as glass.
First landing I'm coming in the way my regular guy wants it, which is to say way too high and way too steep for my comfort. This guy thinks I'm about to panic when we're about to plant the airplane in the grass. Well, he's half right, but I'm used to it. We have an animated and frank discussion about that. I tell him I've landed before, and done it well, on a normal glide path, not trying to drop in from above with the approach angle of a hot air balloon and the sink rate of a Steinway. We do a few more, I keep the VASI white/red. He doesn't like how little I use rudder pedals; he's entirely correct. After the next one I'm doing much better. I'm doing a lot more to keep the spam can doing what I want it to. Of course now I'm misjudging the flare a little, because I've gotten used to dropping in at what feels like a 30 degree glide path. sigh...
I feel like I've logged the last six hours and really not made much progress, if any. I feel like I was landing this well before I moved to the new school and new instructor. I spent two of those hours demonstrating the stuff I had learned -- slow flight, stalls, ground reference, emergency procedures. OK, I expected that. But this landing thing... seriously. I've done nothing else for the past five flights. Touch and go. Touch and go. I work like hell to do it the way one guy wants, and the next one wants to see it done completely differently... so it's off to the races again.
I'm not discouraged, but I'm frustrated and more than a little ****ed off right now. And then... to top it all off... my CFI tells me he'll be gone for a few weeks in May. I specifically told these people I did not want to be switching CFIs. That's what torqued me about the last place -- my CFI disappearing for 2 weeks at a time -- and it's why I wanted an instructor who would be there the whole time. Arrgh! This is just bloody aggravating. I should have been doing solo X/C by now. Instead I'm looping around the bloody pattern trying to figure out what's going to make the CFI du jour happy.
Showed up today, CFI wanted me to fly with another instructor to get his opinion on whether or not I'm ready to solo.
Not sure I get that... is my CFI not allowed to sign me off? Or does he think I'm that bad off? I dunno. So off we go. Everything is OK, more or less... this guy is REALLY chatty, which is fine, he's making suggestions and I'm paying attention, things like checking out the TC during the first few feet of taxi which no one has ever showed me before but it makes sense. Duh.Time for our first takeoff. Line up, full throttle, 60 MPH on the ASI and I'm pulling to rotate. CFI complains tha I'm trying to pull it off the runway. Well, yeah, no duh. I hate doing that, but my last two CFIs have bloody well insisted that I rotate the damned plane at 60, so that's what I do. Never mind that I personally feel the T/O sucks doing that. On subsequent runs I let the airplane tell me when it's ready to fly, and we take off smooth as glass.
First landing I'm coming in the way my regular guy wants it, which is to say way too high and way too steep for my comfort. This guy thinks I'm about to panic when we're about to plant the airplane in the grass. Well, he's half right, but I'm used to it. We have an animated and frank discussion about that. I tell him I've landed before, and done it well, on a normal glide path, not trying to drop in from above with the approach angle of a hot air balloon and the sink rate of a Steinway. We do a few more, I keep the VASI white/red. He doesn't like how little I use rudder pedals; he's entirely correct. After the next one I'm doing much better. I'm doing a lot more to keep the spam can doing what I want it to. Of course now I'm misjudging the flare a little, because I've gotten used to dropping in at what feels like a 30 degree glide path. sigh...
I feel like I've logged the last six hours and really not made much progress, if any. I feel like I was landing this well before I moved to the new school and new instructor. I spent two of those hours demonstrating the stuff I had learned -- slow flight, stalls, ground reference, emergency procedures. OK, I expected that. But this landing thing... seriously. I've done nothing else for the past five flights. Touch and go. Touch and go. I work like hell to do it the way one guy wants, and the next one wants to see it done completely differently... so it's off to the races again.
I'm not discouraged, but I'm frustrated and more than a little ****ed off right now. And then... to top it all off... my CFI tells me he'll be gone for a few weeks in May. I specifically told these people I did not want to be switching CFIs. That's what torqued me about the last place -- my CFI disappearing for 2 weeks at a time -- and it's why I wanted an instructor who would be there the whole time. Arrgh! This is just bloody aggravating. I should have been doing solo X/C by now. Instead I'm looping around the bloody pattern trying to figure out what's going to make the CFI du jour happy.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Assuming you're training at a part 61 school your instructor has the sole authority to sign you off. Sometimes instructors want the opinions of others.
In order to sign you off to solo the following applies:
IMO dragging a cherokee into the air at 60mph is ridiculous, generates lots of drag, places you at a high AoA, and decreases performance.DaleB said:
Try to keep an upbeat attitude - this is all supposed to be fun right? If you'd like another opinion, and more importantly you'd like to have some fun, I can run over to Omaha or Millard in the Cherokee 180 sometime soon and we could fly a bit. Airplane is $115 per hour and I won't even charge you for my time or the cost of flying over there. Why? Because I do this for fun tooDaleB said:
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denverpilot
Tied Down
Try to keep an upbeat attitude - this is all supposed to be fun right? If you'd like another opinion, and more importantly you'd like to have some fun, I can run over to Omaha or Millard in the Cherokee 180 sometime soon and we could fly a bit. Airplane is $115 per hour and I won't even charge you for my time or the cost of flying over there. Why? Because I do this for fun too
Take Jesse up on this offer. He'll help ya through that plateau.
I remember the "Why can't I make these landings consistently!?" plateau like it was yesterday. You know you can perform better but some days they just won't settle in. Drives you crazy. Drove me crazy.
It'll click. Just keep going up. Relax and breathe. It's hardest right before it all starts working.
Then solo.
Then sometime later just before the PP checkride you often start screwing them up again and wonder what happened -- but you know how to fix 'em and there's less stress in the second regression because you've seen that it will pass.
After a couple more "what the heck was that?" moments in the next 100 hours, you'll have personal techniques for cleaning up your act when the landings get a little squirrelly.
Hard to explain, but be "in the moment". Don't think about solo or what's "next" in the syllabus. Just concentrate on THIS landing right now. Just this one. As if there aren't going to be any others today, tomorrow, or ever. Just calmly focus in on every little correction and stay calm and cool. It helps.
One landing at a time. You got this.
control of the plane and being able to put it through the target windows on speed, that's what they all want.
DaleB
Final Approach
Which is exactly what I try to do. The problem comes when one instructor's "target window" is significantly different from all the others'. I was landing pretty well with the instructors at the old school. This one wants me coming in higher ans steeper than I am comfortable with, and as it turns out higher and steeper than his buddy is comfortable with either.
I'm scheduled to fly today, but it looks like the weather is not going to cooperate. The next time I fly I think we're going to have a discussion about the approach angle. I want to bring it in on the glide path, the way it looks and feels right. Three out of four instructors I've flown with agree on that point. In fact the one I flew with yesterday told my instructor we should be coming in on the glide path. If I do that I can land it well. I had trouble yesterday because I'd spent the previous 4-5 hours learning to do it differently. But I know I can do it right. I've DONE it right before. That's the frustrating part.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
Higher performance aircraft? You mean like for a Musketeer?
Unless there are windy conditions I land my little Cessna 140 with no power. If I am watching a PAPI/VASI it always shows me to be high. I took a quick flight with a friend Monday evening in his Musketeer. He came in right on the PAPI and I thought he was going to take the orange basketballs off the powerline near the runway. When I come in I am so high above that powerline that I never know it's there until I drive by it going home.
I guess everything is relative.
MBDiagMan
Final Approach
DaleB
Final Approach
Well, that depends on the CFI.
CFI #1 -- Carry power all the way to the flare. He didn't want me to pull power until we were over the stripes. Never did feel right to me, but I adapted.
CFI #2 -- Pull power over the threshold. Most of my good landings were done with this guy.
CFI #3 -- Pull power when you have the runway made, usually around the fence line.
The one I flew with yesterday also had me pull power as soon as the runway was a sure thing. I'm much more comfortable with that, unless wind conditions dictate otherwise.
The way I am most comfortable, and most successful with:
Abeam the touchdown point, pull power back to around 1700 RPM, maybe more if there is a lot of wind. Drop the flaps 1 notch, pitch and trim for 90 MPH.
About 45% off the end of the runway turn base, second notch of flaps, pitch and trim for 85.
Turn final, third notch of flaps, pitch and trim for 80, hold the centerline, adjust altitude with throttle to keep the slope correct. I use VASI if it's there, if not I can eyeball it just fine. I pick a spot just short of the runway and aim for it.
Over the fence, runway is made, pull power to idle and start transitioning to level flight as we cross the threshold. Usually we're level and I'm starting to flare around the time we're over the stripes. I'm still having trouble finding that "feel" for flaring early enough and "enough" that we lose airspeed and touch on the mains. I haven't landed on the nosewheel, but I seem to either land a little flatter than I'd like, or we balloon a little and I've got to fix that. I tried yesterday just being a little more patient before applying back pressure to flare, and misjudged a little -- I thought we had another foot or two, we didn't and landed flat. All in all, though, about half the time I guess right, get the nose up, and we touch on the mains with the nose wheel still up and the stall horn going off.
The last 3-5 feet are still something of a challenge. Yesterday was worse than usual, but I think it was mainly because I'd gotten used to a steeper approach and was still trying to adjust.
alfadog
Final Approach
Well, that depends on the CFI.
CFI #1 -- Carry power all the way to the flare. He didn't want me to pull power until we were over the stripes. Never did feel right to me, but I adapted.
CFI #2 -- Pull power over the threshold. Most of my good landings were done with this guy.
CFI #3 -- Pull power when you have the runway made, usually around the fence line.
The one I flew with yesterday also had me pull power as soon as the runway was a sure thing. I'm much more comfortable with that, unless wind conditions dictate otherwise.
The way I am most comfortable, and most successful with:
Abeam the touchdown point, pull power back to around 1700 RPM, maybe more if there is a lot of wind. Drop the flaps 1 notch, pitch and trim for 90 MPH.
About 45% off the end of the runway turn base, second notch of flaps, pitch and trim for 85.
Turn final, third notch of flaps, pitch and trim for 80, hold the centerline, adjust altitude with throttle to keep the slope correct. I use VASI if it's there, if not I can eyeball it just fine. I pick a spot just short of the runway and aim for it.
Over the fence, runway is made, pull power to idle and start transitioning to level flight as we cross the threshold. Usually we're level and I'm starting to flare around the time we're over the stripes. I'm still having trouble finding that "feel" for flaring early enough and "enough" that we lose airspeed and touch on the mains. I haven't landed on the nosewheel, but I seem to either land a little flatter than I'd like, or we balloon a little and I've got to fix that. I tried yesterday just being a little more patient before applying back pressure to flare, and misjudged a little -- I thought we had another foot or two, we didn't and landed flat. All in all, though, about half the time I guess right, get the nose up, and we touch on the mains with the nose wheel still up and the stall horn going off.
The last 3-5 feet are still something of a challenge. Yesterday was worse than usual, but I think it was mainly because I'd gotten used to a steeper approach and was still trying to adjust.
Don't know about the Cherokee but, for me:
In the Cessna C172M, 1700 rpm or so, 90/80/70 mph, well above VASI on final, pull once landing is assured. Touchdown is maybe 100' past the numbers.
In the Arrow II, 16" MAP or so, 100/90/80, well above VASI on final, pull once mains touch. Touchdown is maybe 300' past the numbers.
That's because your initial instructor is teaching you the 'stabilized approach' crutch of energy management to avoid teaching you the basics of energy management first (likely because they don't know more than what they taught you because that's all they were taught because that's the FAA way now). Your new instructor is taking you to learn what your first instructor neglected to teach you correctly which is what's causing all your problems, you have to unlearn what you learned so you can learn it correctly; then you can learn how to modify it. You need to learn to judge the airframes energy first, then you learn to modify it with the engines energy to modify your flight path when it goes off track. If you don't know how to land with using just the airframes energy first, you will always play this confusing game of "What do I need?"
DaleB
Final Approach
#4 (the guy #3 had me fly with last night) is still preaching the by-the-numbers stabilized approach. He had what felt like a lot more reasonable take on what constituted a good final though. He also pointed out that one reason I wasn't using the rudder pedals enough, was how I had my feet positioned. I took his advice and moved them, using just my toes... instant improvement, both on takeoff and during flight and especially landing.
Rudder control is another issue, yes, heels down is my preferred method. It also helps keep you from landing with the brakes locked on a more stressful approach. By the numbers works well as long as you do everything the same every time. The question is, do you know why you are on those numbers where? What happens when you can't make that spot and you have to approach from a strange angle or position, can you still judge how to pass through the next window at the correct number if you missed the last one? Say you have to lose the normal amount of altitude that you'll cover in 2.5 miles of downwind, base and final that you've rigidly learned every marking of where to be at what RPM, altitude and flap setting and now you're asked to make a short approach from the numbers. You've now moved your target windows much closer together and into different places. You still need to make that final window over the threshold at 1'agl and 1.05VSo same as you did on the 2.5 mile route. Are you ready? Are you confident you know what you need to get there? Do you know how tight you can make it and still hit it?
This is why it used to be primary instruction landings were taught as power off 180s from downwind abeam. You get them to master the minimum energy approach first, then teach them the energy management crutches and modifiers, once they have a solid foundation. Otherwise they will never really learn it.
DaleB
Final Approach
In a word... pretty much.
I run into this issue frequently. I understand what makes the airplane fly. I understand the back side of the power curve. If I occasionally over-control or airspeed creeps, it's not because I don't understand what I'm doing -- it's because I'm not GOOD at it yet. Not practiced enough to have the right "feel" for it. Like a 15 year old learning to drive. I can hold my speed up and down hills to within about 1 MPH without even glancing at the speedo, regardless of what I'm driving; your average new driver can't. Similar thing.
F'rinstance... in the pattern yesterday, I turn downwind, notice we're almost to TPA. Pitch down and pull throttle at the same time, nice and smooth, level off at exactly TPA and pick up a little speed but not too much. I'm checking my spacing and looking for traffic... glance back, we're about 25' low. Crap, not trimmed right. Well, we're also doing 100 MPH. I want another 25' altitude and 95-ish, so I just pitch up just a little. Get half a mile of lecture from CFI about always using pitch and power together, etc. I tell him, "Well, normally, yeah. In this case I wanted to trade a few MPH of speed for a few feet of altitude. See? It worked."
The instructors want the precise same thing done at the exact same point, bing-bing-bing... it feels like following a script instead of flying the plane. BUT, first off, I realize that's how they want it done, and it's what works for them because some of their students probably really have no clue about the aerodynamics and physics of what they're doing. That's fine. And I also recognize that I am a new pilot, I've got less than 21 hours, I'm still getting a feel for things and it's not a bad thing for me to try to get the airplane under more precise control.
Just please, don't gripe at me when I get it a little off, I know I've gotten it a little off, I know what I need to do to get things back on track and I'm taking corrective action. See the red VASI lights? Yeah, me too, I know I'm low, that's why I'm giving it more throttle. Not quick enough? Yeah, I saw that. I was distracted by the griping noise from the right seat.
Pattern out of whack? Overshot the final turn by fifty yards, and now I've got to work my way back? Yeah, I noticed that too. I can see it from the left seat. I'll try and do it better on the next pass, right now I'm trying to FIX the problem, not discuss it.On the rudder thing... yeah. I had been keeping my whole foot on the rudder pedal; that way I can use the toe brakes when needed. Didn't know any better until last night. #4 had me get my heels back about 6" and get my toes on the lower part of the rudder pedals. That made a HUGE difference. I've got a much, much better feel for the rudder now, and much better and finer control. Keeping the centerline during the transition and flare went from iffy/stressful/unsuccessful to not terribly bad. Huge improvement. Now, why #1, #2 and #3 never noticed and suggested that correction I don't know. It's a big enough difference I'm considering some shoes with thinner, more flexible soles just for a better feel. That damn rudder does wonders once you figure out how to use it.
Me I don't care what the approach looks like until the wheels touch pavement, that's the only time it counts. Should have just told him "I was adjusting pitch and power, I increased pitch and used up some power."
denverpilot
Tied Down
Have any of those four instructors taught you about picking an aiming point and then using pitch for airspeed and power to hold the aiming point at a constant location?
Where to cut the power is one of the last concerns. Prior to that you need to be on-speed and aimed properly for your touchdown spot, not matter how steep or shallow you are. The only difference then is the amount of power required to hold your approach speed.
If you're turning final the same distance from the runway each time, and descending 500' before turning final, and you're on your target speeds for each leg... you can and should be looking at a familiar sight every time. Same height, same speed, etc.
I don't know because I'm not there but it sounds like the consistency of the landings is falling apart clear out at the base turn. Something isn't being done the same every time.
Where to cut the power is one of the last concerns. Prior to that you need to be on-speed and aimed properly for your touchdown spot, not matter how steep or shallow you are. The only difference then is the amount of power required to hold your approach speed.
If you're turning final the same distance from the runway each time, and descending 500' before turning final, and you're on your target speeds for each leg... you can and should be looking at a familiar sight every time. Same height, same speed, etc.
I don't know because I'm not there but it sounds like the consistency of the landings is falling apart clear out at the base turn. Something isn't being done the same every time.
DaleB
Final Approach
Yep. It's what I does.
Well, it does matter when you're trying to bleed off an extra 10 MPH of speed in ground effect before you can flare without ballooning. But it's a minor thing.
If you fly the same pattern every time, and pick the same aiming point every time, but one instructor wants to see you 50' higher when you cross the threshold than the other one... THAT'S when things get unnerving for me. Consistency of landings falls apart when every instructor I fly with wants it done differently. #4 acted like he thought I was nuts, when I was flying the final leg exactly as #3 had insisted it be done. #3 about wet himself when I flew it exactly as I had (with great success) with #2.
That's what's got my knickers in a twist. And yeah, I know I probably sound bad about now. I'm venting.
No, it's not a minor thing, it means you were 10kts hot at the threshold, what will or won't make it a minor thing is why. Try flying a steeper, slower final with less power on at 1.2 VSo calculated for your weight and trim for that speed. Watch the runway perspective; if your aim point is going under you, you need to reduce power and pull up to slow down some more, not enough you'll have to add a slip. Personally if I slip I drop below slope and pop back up to lose whatever excess I built dropping. If you are sliding down in the picture, add some power to slow your sink and hold your speed, trim should stay ok. Doesn't matter what angle you approach from, you can always judge the constant perspective if you include your periferal vision. THIS is why it's faster to teach landings in a tail dragger than a tricycle, it's not about rudders; it's about being forced to use peripheral vision and learning to operate from those cues. That's why I like the 'Taxi in landing attitude for awhile' drill when I do a single seat check out; it gets me my target point sight picture time to saturate into my thick skull. This helps diminish that whole 'looking for the ground' crap I used to do.
DaleB
Final Approach
The "why" was carrying power all the way to the flare, instead of pulling power way back when any sane person would have. CFI #1 was a big fan of that. I'd cross the threshold at 80... and stay there, at 1500 or so RPM until we'd leveled off. So now we're past the numbers and still at 80. Trying to get that excess speed bled off gracefully COULD be done, but it required more finesse than I could typically muster at 2-3-5 hours of total time. In hindsight I probably should have just been a little more patient and let it float along in ground effect while the speed bled off.
CFI #2 had me pull power right at the threshold, which made things much more manageable. #3 and #4 are more of the "You've got the runway made, pull power" persuasion - which I like a whole lot better. So in each case we're crossing the threshold at 80 MPH and at the same altitude, but with power at idle things feel much more manageable when you level off in ground effect.
Even your 'normal' prior 80 over the threshold is too hot, set your aim point 100' prior to threshold and let her get low if you're gonna need to add power for control. Here, sorry, a bit long, but watch as the perspectives change as I'm descending through changing wind, so I need to adjust. I know I'm going to want to add power at the end to increase my rudder effectiveness for the cross wind, so I get a little low and slow so I can drag it in with just a little Prop wash and prop effect helping me out.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Where's the briefing? Why do you not know what each instructor wants BEFORE committing to flight?
Up your game if they won't.
Brief the plan. Fly the plan. Debrief the flight.
If they all have slightly different expectations then get a standard from today's instructor before launching. Then go nail exactly what they said they wanted.
Up your game if they won't.
Brief the plan. Fly the plan. Debrief the flight.
If they all have slightly different expectations then get a standard from today's instructor before launching. Then go nail exactly what they said they wanted.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
That might work for more advanced pilots but DaleB is still pre-solo. Ideally he would be able to work with just one CFI until he gets the landings down using just one technique. After that it becomes easier to experiment with other techniques. Unfortunately every pilot has their own pet technique and many aren't shy about stating what it is. As gospel. This can be very confusing to students.
Well yes, to an extent; however there comes a time if a student isn't showing adequate progress using method A, then method B should be introduced. The mark of a really good instructors is they have method E for most things and can cover most learning styles.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
But that's not what his problem is. His problem seems to be that he is hearing different techniques from multiple instructors who either don't approve of or don't know about the technique he was learning before.
And I'm saying neither is teaching him particularly well, work it out for himself; just ignore their yapping.
DaleB
Final Approach
Bear in mind that's MPH, not kt. And it's not too hot when the CFI insists that you fly the approach at exactly the speeds he specifies. 90 downwind, 85 base, 80 final. Any slower and it's "Get the nose down... get the nose down... you're too slow, get the nose down... get the nose down!"
I aim about 50' before the threshold. Not aiming for the numbers or anything, we're leveling off as we cross the threshold.
I can land the plane the way they want. Even the way #3 wants it, though I'm far from comfortable at what I feel is an excessively steep angle and an excessively nose-low attitude. I'd be OK with that angle of descent at, say, 75 MPH... but at 80 (or 85 when it's gusting) I get a little skittish and tense up. I keep expecting to see sailors scrambling to jump over the side of the deck before we release the bomb. I can make it work, but it's not graceful by anyone's standards.
My gripe (have I missed saying this before?) is that I spend time getting used to doing it the way my current guy (#3) wants it done; we get to the point where I'm doing it passably well. Then he wants me to fly with #4. And #4 is about to crap himself when he thinks we're about to plant a Piper tree in the grass or whack the nose wheel on the runway, because #3 has had me doing it this way for the past three weeks.
Give that woman a cookie. And when one wonders why I'm landing so differently than their pet method, I tell them - hey, this is what I learned, from (insert CFI name here), and it's been working. Tell me what you want to see done differently. And it works, but it's burning a lot of time and it's frustrating as hell. I understand what needs to happen, and how to make that happen. That's not what the instructors want to see; they want to see it done precisely their way,Everskyward said:
I've been through three CFIs -- NOT my choice, believe me -- and now #3 has me fly with #4. And to be brutally honest I think I learned more with #4 in an hour than I have learned from #3 in the last five or six.
DaleB
Final Approach
Easy to say, my friend. Not so easy to do when said CFI is in the right seat, has an annoying habit of supplying unsolicited control inputs with no prior notice, and has to endorse your logbook before you can even solo.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Sounds like you need to force #3 and #4 to talk. If #3 is sending you to #4 for evaluation and they're not on the same page... that's retarded.
Do these people work for the same place? Maybe a chat with their boss about how you'd appreciate it if they'd write a damn syllabus and stick to it.
Do these people work for the same place? Maybe a chat with their boss about how you'd appreciate it if they'd write a damn syllabus and stick to it.
Get rid of them, you are paying the bill, not working for them. Take Command, that is half of what you need to learn as a pilot.
alfadog
Final Approach
Agree. I feel it is very bad form for an instructor to be adding control inputs except where his inputs are necessary to avoid a dangerous situation and in that case perhaps he should take the airplane. The Sporty's tape on finding the right flight school says as much the same. If you like the CFI otherwise, tell him to stop that or find another CFI. You are the decider here.
And by dangerous, I mean dangerous. Otherwise the instructor is there to instruct, not semi-fly the airplane.
When I did my tw endorsement recently, it was under difficult wind conditions. On occasion my CFI would add a bit of input but the Luscombe under those conditions is not tolerant of errors. It is a not a trainer. And eventally he did not need to. But a trainer is a different story. It is not going to ground loop. He needs to be tolerant of error and talk you through it.
Also, people learn differently. I do not want the CFI talking to me much when I am already overloaded. Tell me what to do before and critique after but shut up and let me do my thing during. I am not receptive and will not process during. That was pointed out to me by a very good CFI that did my CTLS transition. He spotted that that is how I learn. So now, I "educate" any CFI on what works best fo me. That is your job as a student. You cannot expect them all to figure you out - tellr them what you need from them as a partner in teaching YOU.
wabower
Touchdown! Greaser!
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DaleB
Final Approach
After some thought on the matter, I have decided on my next steps. Denverpilot & Henning... I hear what you're saying. At this point I just need to get this last thing figured out (see below) and get my solo endorsement. I don't need him to teach me navigation and I can practice maneuvers until I can do them to better than PTS standards on my own time. I'm not hot to change flight schools right now; this one is 10 minuted from my house, the other two within driving distance are each 45 minutes to an hour each way. Jesse's my backup plan but he's over an hour away. Plus this place has been around for decades and has a robust business base - FBO, maintenance, charter, hangars, etc. The last time I bet on another flight school they went unexpectedly TU, hence no longer flying with CFI #2 (#1 got a job that has him out of town most of the time, so he's not an option).
I'm going to fly with #3 again. Prior to the flight I'm going to talk to him about what's happened, and tell him I want him off the controls 100%, period. If he honestly feels we're about to break something or die, he can tell me it's his airplane and TAKE it -- but I want absolutely no "help" with the controls. In exchange for that, I'm going to talk the entire time, telling him exactly what I'm doing and why. I don't want there to be any misunderstanding about why, for example, I'm not pulling the nose off at 60 MPH (yes, I AM watching the ASI, it's just not ready to fly yet) or I'm not adding power when I raise the nose a little (yes, I DID mean to do that, I want to gain 25' and lose 5 MPH).
I'm also going to try starting my transition a little earlier, maybe another 5-10 feet up. I think I've been waiting jut a couple of seconds too long to do so. I'm OK with crossing the threshold at 80-ish, but I think I need to give the airplane another couple of seconds of level flight in ground effect to bleed off a little more speed and get it stabilized before starting the flare. I think I've been getting a little behind the airplane right about then. I want to get in front of it and tame that last 3-4 feet, get it completely under my control and make it do what I know needs to be done. I've been head-flying and chair-flying that last 10-20 feet almost nonstop for the last day or so. I can grease it gently onto the mains at a full stall every time in my head, I just need to do that on the runway a few times.
I'm also trying to join a flying club based at KMLE, there's one membership open. They have a 172, a 182 and an Arrow. All of the FBO's flight instructors are allowed to do basic instruction and checkouts in the club planes. The 172 will cost me less than $85 an hour wet, and it's IFR and ahas a Garmin 396. Hopefully I'll get the one available membership, if not I'll have to wait. They limit membership to a fixed number. I realize I'll burn another couple-few hours learning the 172, but it can't be that bad. And the 182 and Arrow will be FAR better X/C machines. Who would pass up a GNS430 equipped 182 at under $110 an hour? Not me.
I'm going to fly with #3 again. Prior to the flight I'm going to talk to him about what's happened, and tell him I want him off the controls 100%, period. If he honestly feels we're about to break something or die, he can tell me it's his airplane and TAKE it -- but I want absolutely no "help" with the controls. In exchange for that, I'm going to talk the entire time, telling him exactly what I'm doing and why. I don't want there to be any misunderstanding about why, for example, I'm not pulling the nose off at 60 MPH (yes, I AM watching the ASI, it's just not ready to fly yet) or I'm not adding power when I raise the nose a little (yes, I DID mean to do that, I want to gain 25' and lose 5 MPH).
I'm also going to try starting my transition a little earlier, maybe another 5-10 feet up. I think I've been waiting jut a couple of seconds too long to do so. I'm OK with crossing the threshold at 80-ish, but I think I need to give the airplane another couple of seconds of level flight in ground effect to bleed off a little more speed and get it stabilized before starting the flare. I think I've been getting a little behind the airplane right about then. I want to get in front of it and tame that last 3-4 feet, get it completely under my control and make it do what I know needs to be done. I've been head-flying and chair-flying that last 10-20 feet almost nonstop for the last day or so. I can grease it gently onto the mains at a full stall every time in my head, I just need to do that on the runway a few times.
I'm also trying to join a flying club based at KMLE, there's one membership open. They have a 172, a 182 and an Arrow. All of the FBO's flight instructors are allowed to do basic instruction and checkouts in the club planes. The 172 will cost me less than $85 an hour wet, and it's IFR and ahas a Garmin 396. Hopefully I'll get the one available membership, if not I'll have to wait. They limit membership to a fixed number. I realize I'll burn another couple-few hours learning the 172, but it can't be that bad. And the 182 and Arrow will be FAR better X/C machines. Who would pass up a GNS430 equipped 182 at under $110 an hour? Not me.
alfadog
Final Approach
Sigh.
DaleB
Final Approach
Well, I had a 9 AM session scheduled this morning. We had thunderstorms move through last night and AWOS said the first broken layer was at 2400 (TPA is 2000) but it was good enough for pattern work.
I preflighted the airplane, CFI showed up about the time I finished. He double-checked the dipstick (he always does that... so I cinch it down extra tight for him). I told him I wanted to take a new approach today. I'm going to pretend he's not there, and he keeps his hands and feet completely OFF the controls unless we're in imminent danger. No assisting, no tweaking the glide, no nuthin'. He agreed.
We did touch & gos. I did the smoothest and straightest takeoffs today I've ever done, partly due to my new and much-improved rudder control (and partly due to just ignoring his 60 MPH callout). They were beautiful to behold, or as close as you can get in a Cherokee.
I flew the pattern well, airspeeds good, turn to final was right on the money except for one slight overshoot which I corrected smoothly and quickly. I made three passably good landings. On the first one I was low on final, and getting slow... added throttle to stretch it until I could land past the displaced threshold. The flare was not bad at all, and we touched on the mains as the stall horn started sounding. The second was "just OK" by my standards, still pretty good but I did get blown a little sideways in the flare just before the mains touched and wasn't quick enough on the rudder. The third was almost picture perfect, he said it was probably my best ever. It was up to the standard I'd set a couple of months ago, greasing it in at Eppley on a calm day with a 150 foot wide runway. I was happy. I was also within about 50-75' of my touchdown target.
Unfortunately, lower clouds were blowing in. On the third pass, I was seeing little wispy clouds right at eye level about a quarter mile off. Not good. We both agreed that we probably couldn't legally maintain TPA if we did another round, so my third and best landing was full stop. He hadn't touched the controls the whole time, and I was within PTS standards even on the worst approach.
Our goal is to get my pre-solo test and solo endorsement done before he leaves on the 9th, so I can be flying while he's gone. Next Thursday I'll find out if I got into the flying club; if so I'll switch to the club's 172 for the rest of my training. I may have to have another CFI check me out in that, but I don't expect the transition to be that tough.
I preflighted the airplane, CFI showed up about the time I finished. He double-checked the dipstick (he always does that... so I cinch it down extra tight for him). I told him I wanted to take a new approach today. I'm going to pretend he's not there, and he keeps his hands and feet completely OFF the controls unless we're in imminent danger. No assisting, no tweaking the glide, no nuthin'. He agreed.
We did touch & gos. I did the smoothest and straightest takeoffs today I've ever done, partly due to my new and much-improved rudder control (and partly due to just ignoring his 60 MPH callout). They were beautiful to behold, or as close as you can get in a Cherokee.
I flew the pattern well, airspeeds good, turn to final was right on the money except for one slight overshoot which I corrected smoothly and quickly. I made three passably good landings. On the first one I was low on final, and getting slow... added throttle to stretch it until I could land past the displaced threshold. The flare was not bad at all, and we touched on the mains as the stall horn started sounding. The second was "just OK" by my standards, still pretty good but I did get blown a little sideways in the flare just before the mains touched and wasn't quick enough on the rudder. The third was almost picture perfect, he said it was probably my best ever. It was up to the standard I'd set a couple of months ago, greasing it in at Eppley on a calm day with a 150 foot wide runway. I was happy. I was also within about 50-75' of my touchdown target.
Unfortunately, lower clouds were blowing in. On the third pass, I was seeing little wispy clouds right at eye level about a quarter mile off. Not good. We both agreed that we probably couldn't legally maintain TPA if we did another round, so my third and best landing was full stop. He hadn't touched the controls the whole time, and I was within PTS standards even on the worst approach.
Our goal is to get my pre-solo test and solo endorsement done before he leaves on the 9th, so I can be flying while he's gone. Next Thursday I'll find out if I got into the flying club; if so I'll switch to the club's 172 for the rest of my training. I may have to have another CFI check me out in that, but I don't expect the transition to be that tough.
Are you meaning to imply that the clouds were 400' or 1400' above TPA? One measurement is AGL the other MSL IIRC.
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