Avidyne IFD app a brilliant move

LDJones

LDJones

Touchdown! Greaser!
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I saw on Sporty's iPad news that Avidyne has released an iPad app simulator for their hopefully soon-to-be-released navigator. I think it's a brilliant marketing move to get people playing with their product on one of the most ubiquitous platforms among IFR pilots today.

But beware....it's almost a gigabyte in size, so be on a fast connection. I've got it downloading now. PIREP to follow.
 
Guess you can Velcro your iPad to the panel to pretend you actually have an IFD440/540. Not a problem for me -- my GNS530 has been working fine for the last 8 years. :D
 
Not a problem for me, either. I've got a GNS430W, too. But I might replace it when the IFDs come out.
 
Bendix King also introduced a little while back, an eLearning app for their KSN770 series. Smart moves for both companies.


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Ron Levy said:
Guess you can Velcro your iPad to the panel to pretend you actually have an IFD440/540. Not a problem for me -- my GNS530 has been working fine for the last 8 years. :D
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And that's related to this thread how? :dunno:
 
LDJones said:
And that's related to this thread how? :dunno:
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Loren - I think Ron is interjecting a little bit of humor. Either that or he is worried about his Garmin stock value :)

I'm watching both Avidyne and BK closely. Although I have a GTN 650, I think both non Garmin units will offer more connectivity to Aspen owners. I want all this stuff to work interchangeably and right now Garmin doesn't. Opening up the hierachy for technologies like Connected Pilot or ADS-B sharing would be a smart move for these companies to chip away at Garmin's market share.


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Marauder said:
Loren - I think Ron is interjecting a little bit of humor. Either that or he is worried about his Garmin stock value :)

I'm watching both Avidyne and BK closely. Although I have a GTN 650, I think both non Garmin units will offer more connectivity to Aspen owners. I want all this stuff to work interchangeably and right now Garmin doesn't. Opening up the hierachy for technologies like Connected Pilot or ADS-B sharing would be a smart move for these companies to chip away at Garmin's market share.


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I would love for more customer-friendly interoperability. We put an Aspen in our A36 after having one in our Grumman and totally loving it. While the panel was apart, I asked about the Foreflight to Aspen/Garmin "connected panel" feature -- i.e. whatever you plan out in Foreflight gets programmed into the 530 without a bunch of knob turning. I thought it would be maybe $250 as it just needs a Bluetooth receiver and data cable connected. Nope -- it's $3000. Needless to say I kept turning knobs...
 
Marauder said:
I'm watching both Avidyne and BK closely. Although I have a GTN 650, I think both non Garmin units will offer more connectivity to Aspen owners. I want all this stuff to work interchangeably and right now Garmin doesn't. Opening up the hierachy for technologies like Connected Pilot or ADS-B sharing would be a smart move for these companies to chip away at Garmin's market share.


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Agree.

Garmin has brought value to the market for many years which is why many of us own their products. That said, a monopoly does not favor the consumer. As such it would benefit all of us for other companies to offer competing products.

I own a 430 and a GTN650. Garmin went from offering a free simulator and the ability to swap data cards between 430's to what I see as a more revenue driven model. Avidyne has provided a free simulator and has stated the IFD series will allow for multiple IFD's to share a single data subscription.
 
Although I'm in need of an avionics upgrade and frustrated by Garmin's stranglehold over the market, at least Garmin is able to deliver solid products to market in a timely manner, and there is little question about their corporate solvency. I don't particularly care for the operating logic of Garmin's GPS units, and would likely prefer the IFD units, but it's been YEARS since those units were announced and they still aren't being delivered for certificated aircraft. If they are delivered in the next month or two, they will represent the newest 3 year old technology on the market. I can't afford to drop thousands of dollars every few years chasing technology in my panel; I'm likely to buy the latest available at the time, and I don't see how the IFDs will qualify in that regard.

As for BK, I'm not exactly sure what they've done in the past several years that even qualifies them as a serious competitor in the market, despite being backed by the resources of a very large enterprise.


JKG
 
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JGoodish said:
Although I'm in need of an avionics upgrade and frustrated by Garmin's stranglehold over the market, at least Garmin is able to deliver solid products to market in a timely manner, and there is little question about their corporate solvency. I don't particularly care for the operating logic of Garmin's GPS units, and would likely prefer the IFD units, but it's been YEARS since those units were announced and they still aren't being delivered for certificated aircraft. If they are delivered in the next month or two, they will represent the newest 3 year old technology on the market. I can't afford to drop thousands of dollars every few years chasing technology in my panel; I'm likely to buy the latest available at the time, and I don't see how the IFDs will qualify in that regard.

As for BK, I'm not exactly sure what they've done in the past several years that even qualifies them as a serious competitor in the market, despite being backed by the resources of a very large enterprise.


JKG
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I don't know...the IFDs seem to match Garmin's latest and greatest from what I've seen. Their biggest advantage is being plug-n-play with Garmin's previous generation mounts, something Garmin didn't do.
 
LDJones said:
I don't know...the IFDs seem to match Garmin's latest and greatest from what I've seen. Their biggest advantage is being plug-n-play with Garmin's previous generation mounts, something Garmin didn't do.
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Well, considering that they haven't shipped yet, there is no match. That's the problem. You're buying technology that is years old in a brand new product, and I suspect that Garmin is now that much further toward the next product release. The IFDs may be nice upgrades for existing 430/530 owners, but if they don't play with well Garmin's other gear (and reports suggest that they don't), then I'm not sure that they will be attractive to those with a large investment in Garmin hardware.

I'm not trying to be down on the product or the company, but I also don't think that they are serious competition for Garmin with they way they're running their business. I really wish that I could put an Avidyne solution in my panel that would be relatively future-proof, but their handling of the IFD release doesn't inspire confidence.


JKG
 
Every aviation product is "years old" at the time it's released. Nothing gets developed, certified, and shipped overnight. So Garmin GTNs have been shipping for a while...that also makes them "years old" now, too.
 
I have 2 IFD540s in my Bonanza with about 70 hours behind them now. They are awesome and in the test state have been very reliable. They are currently in red label software status and are on target to be shipping soon. I just got back from an IFR flight on Thursday in the NE that required a lot of attention due to weather and other considerations. The IFDs were perfect and kept information readily available to me. I can't say enough good things about them. The technology isn't "years old" but rather right on target in the world of Aviation.

BTW, Avidyne is an open company that supports open protocols and will work with any manufacturer to provide data protocol information where required. Garmin does not provide data protocol information to its competitor which makes it difficult to communicate with.
 
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Jim_R said:
Every aviation product is "years old" at the time it's released. Nothing gets developed, certified, and shipped overnight. So Garmin GTNs have been shipping for a while...that also makes them "years old" now, too.
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Yes, the GTNs have been shipping. That's the point. The IFDs were announced three years ago and HAVE YET TO SHIP. Garmin has no doubt been working on the next generation of product while Avidyne struggles to get their current generation certified.


JKG
 
Geoffrey said:
I have 2 IFD540s in my Bonanza with about 70 hours behind them now. They are awesome and in the test state have been very reliable. They are currently in red label software status and are on target to be shipping soon. I just got back from an IFR flight on Thursday in the NE that required a lot of attention due to weather and other considerations. The IFDs were perfect and kept information readily available to me. I can't say enough good things about them. The technology isn't "years old" but rather right on target in the world of Aviation.

BTW, Avidyne is an open company that supports open protocols and will work with any manufacturer to provide data protocol information where required. Garmin does not provide data protocol information to its competitor which makes it difficult to communicate with.
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Your Bonanza as I recall is operated as an experimental, which is how you were able to install the pre-release IFDs with Avidyne's help. If I could buy and install them today, I probably would, but the reality is that Garmin has a big jump with a released product which is established and proven in the marketplace. If I want a GTN, I don't have to go on a wait list for a who-knows-when future release, and then wonder what bugs will need to be worked out, or what support will be like 3 or 5 years down the road. I am not a Garmin fan, but panel avionics are a pretty big investment on which to role the dice.

I understand that Garmin uses proprietary formats and will not cooperate with competitors, but that's likely to be an issue for a competitor who is positioning its box as a slide-in upgrade for Garmin units. The other problem is that Avidyne doesn't have their own solutions for many of the capabilities that Garmin's products provide, so if I invest in Avidyne, where does that leave me if I want those capabilities?

The "open" concept sounds nice, but I haven't seen much evidence that it's matured to the point where it is a practical alternative to Garmin's proprietary solutions. I wish there was a better solution, but unless Avidyne can ship me a certified IFD in a month (or so), I am probably going to be stuck with Garmin.


JKG
 
Man, $15,000 for a GPS...no wonder I'm still rockin an Apollo GX55.
 
JGoodish said:
Yes, the GTNs have been shipping. That's the point. The IFDs were announced three years ago and HAVE YET TO SHIP. Garmin has no doubt been working on the next generation of product while Avidyne struggles to get their current generation certified.
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Do you know how long Garmin was working on the GTN products before they were released to market? Do you know it was any faster than Avidyne? There's little in the world of panel-mounted GPS technology that's revolutionary. Really, what's different about the GTNs compared to the 15-year-old GNSs? Touchscreens and better screen resolution. I doubt they'll have an espresso maker and surround sound in the next version, either.

I really wish that I could put an Avidyne solution in my panel that would be relatively future-proof, but their handling of the IFD release doesn't inspire confidence.
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Well, let's see. Garmin has already started to terminate some support for GNS-series units. If they get faster at turning out new products, that could translate to faster end of support for old ones.

If your complaint is that Avidyne is slow to bring new products to market, then that may be an argument in favor of buying Avidyne to ensure your product doesn't get labeled "obsolete" by the vendor and have its support terminated before you're ready... :D
 
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I have no dog in this fight, but...

Jim_R said:
Do you know how long Garmin was working on the GTN products before they were released to market? Do you know it was any faster than Avidyne?
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No because they didn't make a premature announcement.

Jim_R said:
There's little in the world of panel-mounted GPS technology that's revolutionary. Really, what's different about the GTNs compared to the 15-year-old GNSs? Touchscreens and better screen resolution. I doubt they'll have an espresso maker and surround sound in the next version, either.
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Touch screens are only revolutionary in the sense that there has never been one for GA. Ever.

The touch screen maximizes usable space and that is a very big deal. It also speeds data entry by a whole stinkin' lot. That is a big deal too.

I have flown a GTN 750 for a year and I love it - even in turbulence - relative to my old knobber GX60 and similar IIMorrow LORAN before that.
 
petrolero said:
No because they didn't make a premature announcement.
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Garmin's a much a bigger company, they have revenue streams from products outside of aviation, and they can afford a different approach to market. Avidyne's certainly alienated some folks because they chose (had to?) announce a product well before it was ready to ship. At the same time, they may also have kept a few customers from going to Garmin and they clearly generated some early revenue from pre-sales, so it's likely still an overall good business decision for them. They're not trying to make everybody happy--they're trying to stay in the game.

Touch screens are only revolutionary in the sense that there has never been one for GA. Ever.
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Which is why thousands of pilots went running to their avionics shops on the day the DTNs were released to ditch their GNS units and pay $15K+ to get a touchscreen. :rolleyes2:

The context was new technology driving older products to obsolescence, and for most pilots, touchscreens don't do that.
 
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I find it annoying that Garmin charges for the GTN simulator app (it's PC version is free), I would make it free. I used it for 30 days and then removed it.
 
JKG, My point was that the software version of the IFD540 I'm running (I don't have the Red Label version) has not been buggy, but rather rock solid, solid enough for me to fly IMC/IFR on a regular basis. From my experience, I don't think users are going to run into significant software issues which require time to work out.

My airplane has some Avidyne and non Avidyne equipment all communicating just fine on the open protocols. I have fuel flow, active traffic, a weather subscription, music subscription, lightning detection, an analog King KFC200 autopilot / FD system, and ADS-B out. Everything works just fine.
 
Jim_R said:
Garmin's a much a bigger company, they have revenue streams from products outside of aviation, and they can afford a different approach to market. Avidyne's certainly alienated some folks because they chose (had to?) announce a product well before it was ready to ship. At the same time, they may also have kept a few customers from going to Garmin and they clearly generated some early revenue from pre-sales, so it's likely still an overall good business decision for them. They're not trying to make everybody happy--they're trying to stay in the game.

Which is why thousands of pilots went running to their avionics shops on the day the DTNs were released to ditch their GNS units and pay $15K+ to get a touchscreen. :rolleyes2:

The context was new technology driving older products to obsolescence, and for most pilots, touchscreens don't do that.
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Why are you singling out the 430W and 530W? And why would a 530w owner just ditch it? Normal people don't behave that way when the price tags are that high. But that doesn't mean the touch screen is not revolutionary.

When the GTN came out those GNS boxes still had plenty of useful life and residual value, especially if upgraded to WAAS. It would have made little financial sense to upgrade a 530W to GTN immediately. But all those old Kings and Apollo units? Hell yeah people jumped on the bandwagon to upgrade those suckers.

Planned obsolescence of the 430w/530w will take a while longer as it must. After all, those are Garmin customers.
 
JGoodish said:
Although I'm in need of an avionics upgrade and frustrated by Garmin's stranglehold over the market, at least Garmin is able to deliver solid products to market in a timely manner, and there is little question about their corporate solvency. I don't particularly care for the operating logic of Garmin's GPS units, and would likely prefer the IFD units, but it's been YEARS since those units were announced and they still aren't being delivered for certificated aircraft. If they are delivered in the next month or two, they will represent the newest 3 year old technology on the market. I can't afford to drop thousands of dollars every few years chasing technology in my panel; I'm likely to buy the latest available at the time, and I don't see how the IFDs will qualify in that regard.

As for BK, I'm not exactly sure what they've done in the past several years that even qualifies them as a serious competitor in the market, despite being backed by the resources of a very large enterprise.


JKG
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Garmin, timely manner? YHGTBSM...:mad2::rofl::mad2::rofl:
 
petrolero said:
Why are you singling out the 430W and 530W? And why would a 530w owner just ditch it? Normal people don't behave that way when the price tags are that high. But that doesn't mean the touch screen is not revolutionary.

When the GTN came out those GNS boxes still had plenty of useful life and residual value, especially if upgraded to WAAS. It would have made little financial sense to upgrade a 530W to GTN immediately. But all those old Kings and Apollo units? Hell yeah people jumped on the bandwagon to upgrade those suckers.

Planned obsolescence of the 430w/530w will take a while longer as it must. After all, those are Garmin customers.
Click to expand...


The reason to ditch the GNS for the GTN is not the touch screen as nice as it is, rather it's the software architecture is so much better. I intuitively could work it, and work it well within 30 minutes because things could be accessed much more easily.
 
Henning said:
The reason to ditch the GNS for the GTN is not the touch screen as nice as it is, rather it's the software architecture is so much better. I intuitively could work it, and work it well within 30 minutes because things could be accessed much more easily.
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When I upgraded my plane in late 2012, I had never flown behind a panel mounted GPS (my 20 years in the system were with standard Nav/Coms and a VFR GPS for situational awareness). I went with the GTN and was able to come up to speed fairly quickly because the buttonolgy made sense. A friend asked me to be a safety pilot for him this Spring. His plane is equipped with a 430. Watching him program it in flight proved your point. Way easier on the GTN.


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Marauder said:
Bendix King also introduced a little while back, an eLearning app for their KSN770 series. Smart moves for both companies.


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Finally certified
 

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Henning said:
Garmin, timely manner? YHGTBSM...:mad2::rofl::mad2::rofl:
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I haven't noticed any major issues with Garmin's ability to deliver or support their products. All manufacturers seem to have delays when it comes to product releases, and I'm sure that the certification process does present major obstacles. However, I'm not aware of Garmin announcing the GTN units, for example, 3 years before they were able to get only PART of a PART of the product line finally certified (how long will it be before that "built in WiFi and BT" is going to work on the IFD540?).

I'm not a Garmin fan, and honestly the IFD units may be superior, but the reality is that I don't know of another integrated solution.


JKG
 
No one is doing GPS right. They are too complicated and have too many functions. Basic IFR GPS should be easy to use and easy to figure out. I don't want weather or collision avoidance or anything but basic navigation. My King KLN90B is fairly easy to use but doesn't have airspace. An IFR GPS that has everything in it you need to navigate shouldn't be that hard to do.

The other problem is updates. The units should update themselves automatically through land based networks via the airwaves. Also, monthly updates are too often. Not necessary to do it so often.

There is such a thing as too complicated.

You shouldn't have to take a separate course in every IFR GPS to use it

Don't even get me started on glass panels.
 
coloradobluesky said:
No one is doing GPS right. They are too complicated and have too many functions. Basic IFR GPS should be easy to use and easy to figure out. I don't want weather or collision avoidance or anything but basic navigation. My King KLN90B is fairly easy to use but doesn't have airspace. An IFR GPS that has everything in it you need to navigate shouldn't be that hard to do.

The other problem is updates. The units should update themselves automatically through land based networks via the airwaves. Also, monthly updates are too often. Not necessary to do it so often.

There is such a thing as too complicated.

You shouldn't have to take a separate course in every IFR GPS to use it

Don't even get me started on glass panels.
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This is why the iPhone will never take off. People want phones that simply make phone calls. Why should I have to swipe a screen and launch a phone app just to use my phone??
 
I'm glad to see new players in avionics to keep Garmin honest, but personally I wouldn't pull my 530W to slide in an IFD 540.:dunno: Part of their marketing seems to be slide in replacement for 430/530's, I guess if my 530 dies and isn't repairable, I'll look at a 540, but I'll likely stick with Garmin.:D
Hopefully, I'm done with avionics purchases for a while! ;)
 
N747JB said:
I'm glad to see new players in avionics to keep Garmin honest, but personally I wouldn't pull my 530W to slide in an IFD 540.:dunno: Part of their marketing seems to be slide in replacement for 430/530's, I guess if my 530 dies and isn't repairable, I'll look at a 540, but I'll likely stick with Garmin.:D
Hopefully, I'm done with avionics purchases for a while! ;)
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If your 530 dies the 540 is a slide-in replacement. Staying with a Garmin requires ripping out the rack and re wiring. That's their pitch. Upgrade to touchscreen and newer technology without rewiring.
 
Yes, I understand the logic, but I'd probably buy a used 530 and replace it. :D

LDJones said:
If your 530 dies the 540 is a slide-in replacement. Staying with a Garmin requires ripping out the rack and re wiring. That's their pitch. Upgrade to touchscreen and newer technology without rewiring.
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If we lose our KLN-94, I'll definitely vote for Avidyne as a replacement. Garmin buttonology isn't very intuitive despite what some have said.
 
Jaybird180 said:
If we lose our KLN-94, I'll definitely vote for Avidyne as a replacement. Garmin buttonology isn't very intuitive despite what some have said.
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I found the Avidyne was way worse compared to Garmin's touchscreen. Garmin knob twist, it's a tie.
 
Not making the GNS series a slide in trade up was a hubris bone-headed takeitintheassallyoupilots! move on Garmin's part, imho. :rolleyes2:

If our 430w so much as hiccups, Garmin lost me to the IFD440.
 
denverpilot said:
I found the Avidyne was way worse compared to Garmin's touchscreen. Garmin knob twist, it's a tie.
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Fwiw the sales guy told me their demo units at Airventure were running a significantly older version of the firmware lacking touch improvements. He may have been fill of ****, but if that's true, whoever decided they didn't need to upgrade them prior to the show should be fired. I considered the touch screen to be unusable.
 
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