Aviation Emergencies and Fatalities

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warthog1984

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Just thinking out loud.

With the recent hypoxia crashes, VFR into IMC incidents (current and historical), and engine-out thread; it made me realize something that I've sort-of known previously: very few emergencies are deadly in and of themselves.

For all the effort we put into emergency procedures training and computer assistance, almost none of it matters.
What does kill pilots is:

1) Not recognizing that an urgent situation exists and/or not dealing with it as PIC, pronto.
2) Panic.

If something goes wrong- FIX IT!

What is it that causes pilots- in some cases very experienced pilots- to forget that they are master of the flight and/or quit "flying the darn plane"?:dunno:
 
warthog1984 said:
Just thinking out loud.

With the recent hypoxia crashes, VFR into IMC incidents (current and historical), and engine-out thread; it made me realize something that I've sort-of known previously: very few emergencies are deadly in and of themselves.

For all the effort we put into emergency procedures training and computer assistance, almost none of it matters.
What does kill pilots is:

1) Not recognizing that an urgent situation exists and/or not dealing with it as PIC, pronto.
2) Panic.

If something goes wrong- FIX IT!

What is it that causes pilots- in some cases very experienced pilots- to forget that they are master of the flight and/or quit "flying the darn plane"?:dunno:
Click to expand...

I'll agree, but switch 1 and 2 around.

Be aggressive.
 
Humans are retarded. We are clever enough to build cool machines but not quite clever enough to master them.
Edit to add: the original post explains why I laugh when pilots try to except themselves from a risk group. Oh I'd never do that... I'd just descend immediately then declare...
 
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Have you had Hypoxia? It is different for everyone.

For some people, it is quick and obvious. For me, the onset was so slow and gradual I would never know it until I was having motor issues, possibly too far to fix. I went 5 minutes without oxygen and barely had recognizable symptoms.

I recall thinking I must be lucky because my color vision is unaffected. I could see color plain as day.

Then I got a breath of oxygen and realized how bad my vision had been.

I can see how this can happen. I sat in that chamber and watched everyone. Some deteriorated quickly and some realized they had a problem around 3-4 minutes but were unable to physically put on their masks due to motor issues. They were like "Oh crap I need oxygen" but at that point, couldn't make their hands work.

I recommend everyone who flies go take a ride in the chamber. It is free and you will learn how you respond. It is different for everyone.
 
warthog1984 said:
1) Not recognizing that an urgent situation exists and/or not dealing with it as PIC, pronto.
2) Panic.

If something goes wrong- FIX IT!

What is it that causes pilots- in some cases very experienced pilots- to forget that they are master of the flight and/or quit "flying the darn plane"?:dunno:
Click to expand...
WRT the hypoxic cases, without a cabin altitude alarm a slow loss of pressurization isn't easy to detect and by the time you might notice something's amiss you could be either too stupid or too unconscious to fix it.
 
One thing to add. Some people had to put their masks on after a minute because it took very little to affect them.

If your physiology is such that a minute w/o O2 is all it takes, you have almost no time to descend a long distance.

It is a catch 22. His brain is failing and he can't correct it because it is failing. He can't even follow directions.

At 10 seconds he is "feeling really good" and has "no symptoms" by a minute its too late.

 
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SixPapaCharlie said:
Have you had Hypoxia? It is different for everyone.
Click to expand...

Yup. Started getting slightly punch-drunk crossing a pass at night and immediately did everything I could to get more oxygen in and setup positive control while heading DOWN as fast as safely possible.

I've been through a lot of extreme situations so I've gotten good at reading my body's early warning signs.
 
I've had it a bunch of times. Little bonus altitude in the jump plane then go arounds for clouds or traffic. Hypoxia might get us, get homeitis might get us, we might fly tired, etc. All stuff we know better, but don't(or can't) universally avoid and are likely to get away with. Except when we don't.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
One thing to add. Some people had to put their masks on after a minute because it took very little to affect them.

If your physiology is such that a minute w/o O2 is all it takes, you have almost no time to descend a long distance.

It is a catch 22. His brain is failing and he can't correct it because it is failing. He can't even follow directions.

At 10 seconds he is "feeling really good" and has "no symptoms" by a minute its too late.

Click to expand...

That's incredible. He's sure he's seeing/saying/doing the right thing, despite basically being caught in a loop of "4 of spades".

Where did you go into the chamber? I'd like to go do it but prior to the recent Cirrus and TBM accidents I didn't even know it was an option.
 
warthog1984 said:
I've been through a lot of extreme situations so I've gotten good at reading my body's early warning signs.
Click to expand...

That may be key. Most probably haven't.
My CFI took me on a "field trip" to the chamber so I could learn my personal response.

Had he not, I would have no idea and I imagine most people don't know how they respond to this. I had none of the tale tale signs of Hypoxia I read about in the PPL books. More people should take a ride in the chamber.
 
And be sure to eat Mexican food the night before a chamber ride.:rofl:
 
ClimbnSink said:
And be sure to eat Mexican food the night before a chamber ride.:rofl:
Click to expand...

HAHA prior to entering, we must have spent a good 30 minutes covering the flatulence issue. It was awkward. Far less of an issue than they made it out to be.
 
mjburian said:
That's incredible. He's sure he's seeing/saying/doing the right thing, despite basically being caught in a loop of "4 of spades".

Where did you go into the chamber? I'd like to go do it but prior to the recent Cirrus and TBM accidents I didn't even know it was an option.
Click to expand...

Check with the FAA medical division in OKC. It offers a 1 day course. Free, but you have to get there on your own, and there's a waiting list.

http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/
 
Getting away from the hypoxia training, my point is that most emergencies are survivable if pilots react to them appropriately.

Engine-out? If you are alert and know the terrain/area, you may have an off-field landing but that's it.

Cruising along, it's a nice day/night, everything's going good, "oh, I'm in a cloud"... well, the airplane was flying straight when you flew into it, so until you mess things up or smack into a mountain the plane is perfectly content to fly in zero vis all day.

Hypoxia? If you know you're hypoxic, setting the AP for VS/Alt and Heading (any heading) takes 10s. Or you could manually fly but pull back the throttle 500rpm instantly. If you feel "happy", goofy, or just feel tired for whatever reason; you can dial in a couple rolls of down trim to act as a deadman's switch- if you stop being alert for whatever reason, the airplane will descend on it's own.

Others???
 
One thing about those chamber rides, there is a risk potential for getting 'bent' in any rapid decompression scenario. For most people the ride they give you is very low risk and likely the only symptom you'll get, if any, is 'skin bends', little pimple sized blisters of nitrogen (they pop up on my chest first) or a sore joint, however the possibility of bubble formation in another tissue compartment, most hazardous being the spinal fluid, does exist regardless how small. Like hypoxia and nitrogen narcosis, these issues have a high degree of individual variability, and they don't likely leave you decompressed for long enough for the bubble formation to have serious effect before they re pressurize you.

This is why the military has the HALO jumpers on pure O2 for 2 hrs before boarding the plane, it allows most all of the nitrogen and other inert gas components to be purged from your tissue compartments, also why divers who need to fly shortly after diving will go on O2 for 2 hrs after their last dive, or as I used to do, go do a 2 hr 20' reef dive on pure O2 (not as boring:D and the added pressure helps purge you faster) as the last dive of the trip.
 
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The fear of declaring an emergency ,doesn't help in a serious situation.in a depressurization you don't have time to talk to ATC ,and wait to descend. Did the high altitude ride in the Air Force. Never will forget it.
 
frfly172 said:
The fear of declaring an emergency ,doesn't help in a serious situation.in a depressurization you don't have time to talk to ATC ,and wait to descend. Did the high altitude ride in the Air Force. Never will forget it.
Click to expand...

Yep, pull throttle, push forward, hit the button, "___ Center 123A, emergency, lost pressure, heading down to 10,000'" Don't ask, don't wait, remember the process for flying, "Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" in that order.
 
Henning said:
One thing about those chamber rides, there is a risk potential for getting 'bent' in any rapid decompression scenario. For most people the ride they give you is very low risk and likely the only symptom you'll get, if any, is 'skin bends', little pimple sized blisters of nitrogen (they pop up on my chest first) or a sore joint, however the possibility of bubble formation in another tissue compartment, most hazardous being the spinal fluid, does exist regardless how small. Like hypoxia and nitrogen narcosis, these issues have a high degree of individual variability, and they don't likely leave you decompressed for long enough for the bubble formation to have serious effect before they re pressurize you.

This is why the military has the HALO jumpers on pure O2 for 2 hrs before boarding the plane, it allows most all of the nitrogen and other inert gas components to be purged from your tissue compartments, also why divers who need to fly shortly after diving will go on O2 for 2 hrs after their last dive, or as I used to do, go do a 2 hr 20' reef dive on pure O2 (not as boring:D and the added pressure helps purge you faster) as the last dive of the trip.
Click to expand...


I think we did 30 min w/ the pulse oximeters to get to a certain point before they decompressed. And we were all told no flying for 24 hours after. I don't recall the whole process (It was lengthy) put there was a purging of something from our blood'
 
I agree with you to some extent but I'm inclined to play devil's advocate.

warthog1984 said:
Engine-out? If you are alert and know the terrain/area, you may have an off-field landing but that's it.
Click to expand...

Engine out at 200 AGL?

At night, it is a roll of the dice. you can't possibly know the terrain between point A and point B well enough to be able to estimate where a field is at any given moment that s suitable for landing. I am still in the "aim for the roads" school of thought on that one.

I was putting along at night on Sunday and I was looking down, following roads until it was no longer practical for my trip. There was 10 minutes there where I thought to my self if the engine quits, I have no out. Just a guess.

Daytime probably have a really good shot.


warthog1984 said:
Cruising along, it's a nice day/night, everything's going good, "oh, I'm in a cloud"... well, the airplane was flying straight when you flew into it, so until you mess things up or smack into a mountain the plane is perfectly content to fly in zero vis all day.
Click to expand...


I think the issue here is we are only required 3 hrs under the hood. How many pilots are going to remember from that 3 hours to look at the turn and bank indicator and hit the stopwatch for the 180.

Have you seen the video if the friends in the A36 where they get in the clouds and at one point, there is a flash of trees out the right window and the wingtip actually collected a couple branches?

I haven't been in actual IMC yet. I know at night, I get the leans really bad and it stresses me out. I suspect I am one where in a cloud, it will be a lot of work to fly the instruments because I know I am one that is susceptible to being lied to by my body


warthog1984 said:
Hypoxia? If you know you're hypoxic, setting the AP for VS/Alt and Heading (any heading) takes 10s. Or you could manually fly but pull back the throttle 500rpm instantly. If you feel "happy", goofy, or just feel tired for whatever reason; you can dial in a couple rolls of down trim to act as a deadman's switch- if you stop being alert for whatever reason, the airplane will descend on it's own.

Others???
Click to expand...

I don't have an autopilot. If I get Hypoxic, I am dead. That being said, I would wear the pulseoximeter on flights above 10k


What about Midairs (I know super rare)?
Cabin fire <-- that one scares me, Engine fire?

The thing is even these are all rare.
Go through the crashes discussed on this board and look at how many are stall/spin. I still don't understand how someone stalls a plane on accident but that seems to happen a lot.

Very few crashes are due to in flight emergencies but rather bad decision making and loss of control. Lots of people seem to be making the impossible turn. I was never taught about the impossible turn in training. I learned about it here.

I am not being cute but I think if more pilots spent time here discussing these things there may be more knowledge spread around and possibly reduce some of these things.

I have always been curious but scared to ask. Has POA lost any members?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I think we did 30 min w/ the pulse oximeters to get to a certain point before they decompressed. And we were all told no flying for 24 hours after. I don't recall the whole process (It was lengthy) put there was a purging of something from our blood'
Click to expand...

Ok, good. It's nitrogen, and it's not purging from the blood, but rather the tissue compartments in your body the blood supplies. What happens is you ave a constant saturation of the inert gasses you breath in all your tissues at this pressure, kinda like CO2 in a closed soda bottle, and just like when you release the pressure on the soda producing bubbles so do the tissues in your body release the nitrogen from solution to form bubbles when you rapidly decompress. These bubbles then cause damage on their way out and accumulate into embolisms.

Did you get to use the Doppler stethoscope to listen to the bubbles in your body?
 
Could we not fly right seat(not PIC) with a friend to 15-18K without O2. See how long we can handle the radios and such while monitoring O2 Sat. Video to watch later. How many of us regular vfr fliers are going to ever experience rapid decompression anyway?

As far as most emergencies go...Rarely do I see pilots spending time and money training for them. I spent $102 last Fri on nothing but stalls, steep turns, slow flight and simulated engine outs while occassionally covering airspeed indication. Many feel that they already did that once and it was not "comfortable or fun".
 
warthog1984 said:
What is it that causes pilots- in some cases very experienced pilots- to forget that they are master of the flight and/or quit "flying the darn plane"?:dunno:
Click to expand...

If I had to answer this Q in one word: Complacency.

"I've done this 100's of times before, what could go wrong?" and then the pilot lets his/her guard down. It's like briefing a takeoff. If you have a plan, you can fly it. If you don't have a plan and things go south, well, there you are...

-Skip
 
Skip Miller said:
If I had to answer this Q in one word: Complacency.

"I've done this 100's of times before, what could go wrong?" and then the pilot lets his/her guard down. It's like briefing a takeoff. If you have a plan, you can fly it. If you don't have a plan and things go south, well, there you are...

-Skip
Click to expand...

It also depends on the person and situation. Complacency can lead to the occurrence, but it doesn't get them to quit flying the airplane, that is an ingrained response to the face of death some people have, they just disassociate and sit there watching it unfold like a movie of it happening to someone else.
 
We were looking at this Trinidad at one point and I stumbled across this story.
Very experienced pilot sort of gradually ended up in IMC and is quite lucky to be alive.

Here is the story: http://nflightphoto.com/ICE.pdf

In his words "This photo was taken after about 50% of the ice had already melted"

ice.jpg
 
warthog1984 said:
Getting away from the hypoxia training, my point is that most emergencies are survivable if pilots react to them appropriately.

Engine-out? If you are alert and know the terrain/area, you may have an off-field landing but that's it.

Cruising along, it's a nice day/night, everything's going good, "oh, I'm in a cloud"... well, the airplane was flying straight when you flew into it, so until you mess things up or smack into a mountain the plane is perfectly content to fly in zero vis all day.

Hypoxia? If you know you're hypoxic, setting the AP for VS/Alt and Heading (any heading) takes 10s. Or you could manually fly but pull back the throttle 500rpm instantly. If you feel "happy", goofy, or just feel tired for whatever reason; you can dial in a couple rolls of down trim to act as a deadman's switch- if you stop being alert for whatever reason, the airplane will descend on it's own.

Others???
Click to expand...

This was brought up briefly in the F-15 accident recently by Henning. The "disassociate reaction."

Personally I believe there are 3 types when it comes to handling near death emergencies. You have those who disassociate themselves from what's going or freeze up. Then you have those who react but they react blindly and do the wrong procedure to resolve the emergency. Finally you have the rational "smooth as a jewel" personalities who remain calm and fight the emergency appropriately.

Which of those is us? Hard to tell unless you're actually tested and put into that situation. Our reaction to stress could be positive or negative depending on the individual. One of the things I liked about instructing, is you get to fly with soo many personalities. It's fascinating to see how different students react to stress in their own ways.

I believe the military does well is situational training to help cope with the stress. The use of realistic simulations that not only train most of the aircraft emergencies but the sights and sounds of small arms fire or a missile launch. When you train to these emergencies to the point you become bored with the sim, you have a much better chance of coping when it comes to the real thing through an automatic response.

The second thing the military does well is aggressive aircrew coordination training or CRM. I don't know how many animated video & audio presentations I watched when I was in. Countless. We critique or arm chair quarterback accidents (like on POA) to the smallest detail. Observing others having a break down in CRM helps but you still have the unknown panic factor. You can train all you want to changing scenarios but until one is actually in a life and death situation, you truly won't know how you'll react.
 
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Also the aging of the pilot population is dangerous. All these accidents this week were with old pilots past their prime. There needs to be an expiry date for licenses. Open your eyes people.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
We were looking at this Trinidad at one point and I stumbled across this story.
Very experienced pilot sort of gradually ended up in IMC and is quite lucky to be alive.

Here is the story: http://nflightphoto.com/ICE.pdf

In his words "This photo was taken after about 50% of the ice had already melted"

ice.jpg
Click to expand...

:dunno:

Doesn't look that bad. The top and bottom surfaces are what do the lifting not the front edge. So who cares with some ice there?
 
If it were only that simple.
 
John Galt said:
Also the aging of the pilot population is dangerous. All these accidents this week were with old pilots past their prime. There needs to be an expiry date for licenses. Open your eyes people.
Click to expand...

That's why you need two documents, the license and medical. It is the function of the medical to weed out those who can no longer function at a safe level. For class one and two medicalsI share your opinion they should be closely monitored for pilot ability since they allow for commercial level operations where the duty of care standard is much higher. However, for private operations I believe anyone has the right to risk their life as they please, and if they can take a few extras with them, so much the better.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
One thing to add. Some people had to put their masks on after a minute because it took very little to affect them.

If your physiology is such that a minute w/o O2 is all it takes, you have almost no time to descend a long distance.

It is a catch 22. His brain is failing and he can't correct it because it is failing. He can't even follow directions.

At 10 seconds he is "feeling really good" and has "no symptoms" by a minute its too late.

Click to expand...


That is truly amazing! He went all Howard Hughes very quickly.
After seeing that video, I'm remembering several ATC audio feeds where that repeated respons is happening and they can't get another response from the pilot.

Thank you very much for sharing this video. Great learning tool. Now I need to go with TImWinters and make an appt in Oklahoma


Shane
The Squawk Shoppe
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Another good one. I like this one because of his little review at the end where he thought it was a failed experiment because he was giving all the right answers and outwitting them. The perception is that there is not a problem.

 
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