average cost to make a vfr aircraft IFR

[steingar]

If you have to ask you really can't afford it. Even if you don't have to ask you probably can't afford it.

 

[flyingron]

You don't want to know what it was to take an IFR-legal (King Silver Crown: 2 nav com, ADF, DME, Audio Panel, but no autopilot) and make it into the WAAS GPS, AUTOPILOT, MOVING MAP, HSI system I have. You have to really like the airframe you have.

 

[JOhnH]

You don't want to know what it was to take an IFR-legal (King Silver Crown: 2 nav com, ADF, DME, Audio Panel, but no autopilot) and make it into the WAAS GPS, AUTOPILOT, MOVING MAP, HSI system I have. You have to really like the airframe you have.

Actually, I would like to know that. Ballpark?

Suppose the OP phrased it differently.
For an exmaple:
What would it cost to retrofit a stock VFR equipped 1970 Cessna 172 to meet the minimum IFR requirements (plus 2 axis AP)?
Assume the following are needed:
Transponder,
Audio panel,
Dual Navcoms/CDI w GS
What else is needed?

Of course this ignores any cosmetics, necessary maintenance or repairs an old frame might need. And if he wanted the lastest ADS-B out, graphic engine monitor, moving maps etc, he could buy probably buy a late model aircraft for the money (purchase old aircraft plus upgrades).

 

[flyingron]

It cost me in the vicinity of $75K for:

Garmin GNS 480, MX20/Traffic, GTX33 transponder, (retained my KN64 DME for some silly reason), Garmin Audio Panel (the horrendous weak link in the system), GDL89A XM Weather/Audio, STEC 55X Autopilot with electric trim, and the King KCS55 HSI.

An STEC30 installed will run about $9000. Most even VFR 172's have a "perfectly good for IFR" audio panel and transponder and a single NAV/COM. You can throw $2000 for an additional NAVCOM / INDICATOR of the same ilk you already have. A STEC 20 autopilot will give you the basic for $9000 installed. That and a static/altimeter/encoder check in the range of $400 will give you a minimally IFR ship. If you want to do it to train for an instrument rating you'd probably want either an ADF (if you are in to anachronisms) or an IFR GPS.

Frankly, for 1970's era 172's you can find tons that were fitted out as IFR trainers, unless you are attached to a particular airframe it is always cheaper as pointed out to get one that's already set up.

Navions with IO-550s, tip tanks, baggage doors, etc... are a bit harder to come by either with or without IFR avionics.

 

[Tom-D]

You don't even need the 91.413 transponder check if the plane doesn't have a transponder or you intend not to use it -- transponder is not required for IFR operations. OTOH, the 91.413 checks are required even for VFR operation of your transponder.

Some how this doesn't smell right..

What will you tell ATC when you call and ask for a clearance ? and they say "Squawk" ______.

I think you'll be the control room's entertainment for about a week

 

[dukeblue219]

Some how this doesn't smell right..

What will you tell ATC when you call and ask for a clearance ? and they say "Squawk" ______.

I think you'll be the control room's entertainment for about a week

It's still not required for IFR flight. But it's not very practical. It's like asking how many nav sources you need to fly IFR -- the answer is 0 if you can get a clearance with radar vectors only, but it doesn't mean it would be a useful IFR platform.

 

[flyingron]

Hey, I've manged to get in and out of IAD without a transponder and one of those trips was AFTER 9/11 even.

 

[Tom-D]

It's still not required for IFR flight. But it's not very practical. It's like asking how many nav sources you need to fly IFR -- the answer is 0 if you can get a clearance with radar vectors only, but it doesn't mean it would be a useful IFR platform.

"Useful IFR platform" theres a fluid phrase.

how long could you be waiting out side the mod C vail to get a controller that will take you as a primary target?

long enough to have you declare low fuel state? That will get their attention, an emergency arising and no way to identify you.

Yep, that's where I want to be..

 

[peerlesscowboy]

"Useful IFR platform" theres a fluid phrase.

how long could you be waiting out side the mod C vail to get a controller that will take you as a primary target?

long enough to have you declare low fuel state? That will get their attention, an emergency arising and no way to identify you.

Yep, that's where I want to be..

You'll likely be asked to make an identification turn.

 

[poadeleted20]

Some how this doesn't smell right..

I think your nose needs to be immersed in the FAR's, where you'll see I was correct.

What will you tell ATC when you call and ask for a clearance ? and they say "Squawk" ______.

"Did you read the strip that shows I don't have a transponder?"

I think you'll be the control room's entertainment for about a week

I think not.

 

[Henning]

Actually, I would like to know that. Ballpark?

Suppose the OP phrased it differently.
For an exmaple:
What would it cost to retrofit a stock VFR equipped 1970 Cessna 172 to meet the minimum IFR requirements (plus 2 axis AP)?
Assume the following are needed:
Transponder,
Audio panel,
Dual Navcoms/CDI w GS
What else is needed?

Of course this ignores any cosmetics, necessary maintenance or repairs an old frame might need. And if he wanted the lastest ADS-B out, graphic engine monitor, moving maps etc, he could buy probably buy a late model aircraft for the money (purchase old aircraft plus upgrades).

Less the 2 axis AP you can do it with 2generation old radios (digital face Nav/coms with flip flop frequencies) used gear for $3000 + install. Adding a 2 axis Cessna AP (cheapest way to go since no STC is required and you can buy salvage and install) will be about $4500 + install minimum.

 

[muleywannabe]

Actually, I would like to know that. Ballpark?

Suppose the OP phrased it differently.
For an exmaple:
What would it cost to retrofit a stock VFR equipped 1970 Cessna 172 to meet the minimum IFR requirements (plus 2 axis AP)?
Assume the following are needed:
Transponder,
Audio panel,
Dual Navcoms/CDI w GS
What else is needed?

Of course this ignores any cosmetics, necessary maintenance or repairs an old frame might need. And if he wanted the lastest ADS-B out, graphic engine monitor, moving maps etc, he could buy probably buy a late model aircraft for the money (purchase old aircraft plus upgrades).

Thats exactly what I was looking for. thank you

 

[muleywannabe]

Less the 2 axis AP you can do it with 2generation old radios (digital face Nav/coms with flip flop frequencies) used gear for $3000 + install. Adding a 2 axis Cessna AP (cheapest way to go since no STC is required and you can buy salvage and install) will be about $4500 + install minimum.

thank you. that makes sense and doesnt seem too terribly bad assuming no other major issues of course.

 

[JOhnH]

Less the 2 axis AP you can do it with 2generation old radios (digital face Nav/coms with flip flop frequencies) used gear for $3000 + install. Adding a 2 axis Cessna AP (cheapest way to go since no STC is required and you can buy salvage and install) will be about $4500 + install minimum.

The big thing here though is the "+ Install".
Old equipment costs as much to install as new equipment. It's not always true, but I often find the install cost is almost as much as the new equipment. $3k worth of used, outdated gear would probably cost $6-10k or more for newer models and install might be another ~$10k. So buying used would probably net about $13k total. Plus the AP (and the installation of that).
(note: price estimates are swags).

 

[flyingron]

Adding a NAVCOM to a 172 isn't going to be that expensive. Installing a junker autopilot and getting it to work can be but a STEC-20 bought outright including installation shouldn't run over $10K.

 

[bluerooster]

........In addition it was not possible to certify an 8KCAB for IFR with a wood spar.

Reckon why a wood spar would be it's IFR downfall? There are other aircraft out there with wood spars, and IFR certified.

 

[bluerooster]

Ballpark average cost assuming two comms, all gauges etc. General cost to go from vfr to ifr in an older plane?

First- What's already in your airplane? Then how wild do you want to get?

As been said, an AP will ballpark $10k+
If you already have a nav-com/VOR/LOC you can add a kx155 w/GS for around $2500 plus installation, and another $1200 for the indicator. Or you could go with a kx170B w/GS and indicator for about $2500. A KMA24 audio panel is about $1200(+/-) Then you'll need a marker beacon antenna, about $200. Do you have a vacuum pump or venturies? You may want to add alternate vacuum source. Do you have an old AN style AH? You may want to upgrade.
Short of AP your airplane may well be good to go, just get it certified. But you want to upgrade a few things?

 

[Tom-D]

I think your nose needs to be immersed in the FAR's, where you'll see I was correct.

"Did you read the strip that shows I don't have a transponder?"

I think not.

I didn't say you were wrong.
do you have a transponder in your A/C?
If it is legal, why did you spend all that money?

Oh I forgot, you probably want to comply with 91.215

 

[JHW]

Actually, I would like to know that. Ballpark?

Suppose the OP phrased it differently.
For an exmaple:
What would it cost to retrofit a stock VFR equipped 1970 Cessna 172 to meet the minimum IFR requirements (plus 2 axis AP)?
Assume the following are needed:
Transponder,
Audio panel,
Dual Navcoms/CDI w GS
What else is needed?

even much of that is not needed. If you strictly want to be able to fly IFR to get somewhere, and aren't worried about comparing toys with your hangar neighbor, then it doesn't take much. We flew our cherokee 180 (pictured) IFR pretty much anytime we needed to except in the winter. Actually i had too much gear in it, the audio panel was not needed, but it was the cheapest way to add a MB.

 

[Dr. O]

From scratch? With labor? To fly an approach to minimums?
Garmin IFR package is $17K
Autopilot is going to be roughly $10K
Pitot heat will be (shrug) maybe $1K, dunno. You can check around.
Certified altimeter and static system $500 to $1000

So $29K.
Can be done for less (but not a lot less) with a used 430 and a rebuilt autopilot. Where you save money on used boxes you spend more for labor integrating everything and getting a sign off from the radio and instrument shops. I would opt to spend more money on an integrated package and less on labor.
The new boxes will go out the door with me adding value to the plane.
The labor bill will just go.

 

[rbridges]

Adding a NAVCOM to a 172 isn't going to be that expensive. Installing a junker autopilot and getting it to work can be but a STEC-20 bought outright including installation shouldn't run over $10K.

don't you have to transfer the STC ($$) for STEC autopilots? or were you including that in the price?

 

[muleywannabe]

I am thinking definitely just buy the plane I want with the right equipment! basic IFR package will do just fine, it looks like there is some serious money to be spent in this stuff. I have a cheap labor source but still parts alone are pricey.

 

[rbridges]

I am thinking definitely just buy the plane I want with the right equipment! basic IFR package will do just fine, it looks like there is some serious money to be spent in this stuff. I have a cheap labor source but still parts alone are pricey.

finding one with an ifr approved gps (430 for instance) shouldn't be too hard. I would recommend one with autopilot if it works into your budget. call me lazy, but it is convenient to turn it on during long flights, especially when you're going through clouds. it is also something you can use to keep things straight and level if you need to focus on something else momentarily.

 

[Jhernandez04]

I am thinking definitely just buy the plane I want with the right equipment! basic IFR package will do just fine, it looks like there is some serious money to be spent in this stuff. I have a cheap labor source but still parts alone are pricey.

If you go experimental you won't spend near as much.

 

[Tom-D]

If you go experimental you won't spend near as much.

I'll bet those glass dash manufacturers don't change their prices dependent upon which aircraft their equipment gets installed in.

 

[Henning]

I'll bet those glass dash manufacturers don't change their prices dependent upon which aircraft their equipment gets installed in.

There's a lot of stuff on the market for experimentals that is not on the market for certified, especially in the glass panel and autopilot markets, that is much less expensive.

 

[pericynthion]

And if you're handy with electronics you can do the installation yourself, saving quite a bit.

In my case, VFR VariEze $19k + Garmin 480 $5k = 160 KTAS personal IFR transport; I've flown ILS and LPV approaches to minimums a number of times.

 

[JimNtexas]

It's probably just the way my brain is wired, but I almost have to have a heading bug on the DG to feel good about flying IFR.

If the bug is connected to a two axis (roll and heading) autopilot, that's great.

But even if there is no autopilot I really, really, really depend on the heading bug to keep me on course, IFR or VFR.

 

[JHW]

From scratch? With labor? To fly an approach to minimums?
Garmin IFR package is $17K
Autopilot is going to be roughly $10K
Pitot heat will be (shrug) maybe $1K, dunno. You can check around.
Certified altimeter and static system $500 to $1000

So $29K.
Can be done for less (but not a lot less) with a used 430 and a rebuilt autopilot. Where you save money on used boxes you spend more for labor integrating everything and getting a sign off from the radio and instrument shops. I would opt to spend more money on an integrated package and less on labor.
The new boxes will go out the door with me adding value to the plane.
The labor bill will just go.

alternatively, do what i did to my cherokee above, shop used, put a little of your own elbow grease into it, and be flying IFR for $2500 max, depending on what you started with

 

[flyingron]

don't you have to transfer the STC ($$) for STEC autopilots? or were you including that in the price?

I'm talking about a BRAND NEW one.

 

[SteveCanyon]

There's a lot of stuff on the market for experimentals that is not on the market for certified, especially in the glass panel and autopilot markets, that is much less expensive.

You're right about that. Pennies on the dollar in some cases.

I've been IFR box shopping lately and I have seen some price differences even on the exact same box depending if it was going into a certified or experimental aircraft. The options and prices of experimental boxes are amazing and I hope some of the new upcoming regulations will help reduce the price disparity.