Auto Pilot recommendation

J

JOhnH

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Our '67 Bonanza came with a Brittain B5C autopilot. We knew when we bought it that it needed about (or at least) $700 work. But we have been considering replacing it with something more modern. It was great in it's day. It was a top of the line, analog system. It [FONT=&quot]is a three axis autopilot which provides manual turn capabilities, heading pre-select and lock, navigational coupling, pitch stabilization and altitude hold[/FONT] and can interface with most modern GPS systems. But I am afraid that even if I fix the current problem there will be other problems, and nobody seems to want to work on them any more, even though they are still supported by Brittain. Parts can be a problem too.

Soooo, what AP would you recommend as a replacement for someone just beginning their IFR training? I know I could just buy the most expensive, but that is not what I am looking for. I don't want the cheapest either. I want one that provides the features most appreciated by other IFR flyers.
 
In my Travelair,I did away with all the Britan stuff,replaced it with a s tec 30 auto pilot with altitude hold. Worked great for IFR.
 
STEC makes some good stuff, also there are some nice STECs on the used market too, I'd want GPSS and VNAV, at the very least GPSS and Alt Hold.

Economy would be a STEC 30 with GPSS and ALT hold options


Ideally a STEC 60-2 with GPSS option, or better.

My 185 has a 30 with GPSS and Alt hold, it's fine for the limited IFR I do, and also being proficient at IFR, I'm not going to upgrade to VS, but if the plane didn't have a AP and I was going down that route I'd swing for the 60 with GPSS.
 
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Oh yeah, almost forgot, when you get the install done you'll no doubt get the alt hold and disconnect button on the yoke, ALSO get the mode select button addition on the yoke, it's more ergonomic and the panel mode select switch is prone to failure at the plastic U-Jount, cheap fix but a PIA, especially if it happens in IMC.
 
I love my Brittain AP, interfaced to both my G430W and Nav2. Wish it had altitude hold.

Your system can be overhauled by Brittain fairly cheaply. They did an aileron servo for me two years ago for $125. Spend the $700, inspect and replace tubing as required, and use the other 15AMU required to buy & install another unit to buy avgas and practice approaches with the Brittain, add ADS-B, get AoA send maybe airbag seat belts. Then a nice trip somewhere, and think about how to spend the rest of your AP budget.

If you do splurge on a new AP, your Brittain can be sold for a couple of tanks of avgas, should pay for your fuel to the installer and your buddy's chase plane to pick you up and drop you off. Expect greater fuel economy on the flight home due to the vacuum in your hip pocket.

Either way, practice to proficiency and enjoy!
 
Clark1961 said:
Has STEC started selling STC's for used equipment?
Click to expand...

Last I heard, you could buy the used system and send it to them. For several AMU, they would check it out (additional charge for any needed repairs) and return with new papers. Seems it was 6-8 AMU, but it probably varies by model.

Before buying a used one, though, I would confirm if it is available for the unit in question. It often makes better financial sense to buy a new one.
 
I don't have a recommendation, but I can think of a couple of long cross country flights I have taken flying 10 hours a day for 3 to 4 days I would have loved altitude hold.
 
Hank S said:
I love my Brittain AP, interfaced to both my G430W and Nav2. Wish it had altitude hold.

Your system can be overhauled by Brittain fairly cheaply. They did an aileron servo for me two years ago for $125. Spend the $700, inspect and replace tubing as required, and use the other 15AMU required to buy & install another unit to buy avgas and practice approaches with the Brittain, add ADS-B, get AoA send maybe airbag seat belts. Then a nice trip somewhere, and think about how to spend the rest of your AP budget.

If you do splurge on a new AP, your Brittain can be sold for a couple of tanks of avgas, should pay for your fuel to the installer and your buddy's chase plane to pick you up and drop you off. Expect greater fuel economy on the flight home due to the vacuum in your hip pocket.

Either way, practice to proficiency and enjoy!
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Yeah, check with STEC, but I'm pretty sure you can go the used route, mine was already installed when I bought my plane.

As for the AOA and airbags and early adopt ADSB, those would be the last things I'd get, presuming I even wanted airbags or silly AOAs. Heck BAS belts are way more of a upgrade than silly airbags and AOAs. YMMV.
 
I have been flying an Arrow with a S-Tec 55x and have been completely spoiled. Easy to use, coupled to the GPS, Altitude Hold and Vertical Speed. I almost feel guilty that I'm not earning my time when I'm doing a cross country, :thumbsup:
 
What capability do you want, and how much are you willing to spend for it? Also, what other avionics do you currently have installed, or are planning to install?
 
Whatever you do, if you choose to remove the Brittain, please do not throw it away; it can be refurbed and used by someone else.

---

Edit:

The B5C is quite a capable box- you might at least consider talking with the folks at Brittain - many good stories about great service and how well the Brittains work when properly tended-to.
 
JOhnH said:
Our '67 Bonanza came with a Brittain B5C autopilot. We knew when we bought it that it needed about (or at least) $700 work. But we have been considering replacing it with something more modern. It was great in it's day. It was a top of the line, analog system. It [FONT=&quot]is a three axis autopilot which provides manual turn capabilities, heading pre-select and lock, navigational coupling, pitch stabilization and altitude hold[/FONT] and can interface with most modern GPS systems. But I am afraid that even if I fix the current problem there will be other problems, and nobody seems to want to work on them any more, even though they are still supported by Brittain. Parts can be a problem too.

Soooo, what AP would you recommend as a replacement for someone just beginning their IFR training? I know I could just buy the most expensive, but that is not what I am looking for. I don't want the cheapest either. I want one that provides the features most appreciated by other IFR flyers.
Click to expand...


If you want to upgrade without breaking the bank, an STEC 30 will do nicely. If you replace the Brittain let me know. I would be interested in purchasing as is. I currently have a Brittain but could use some spare parts.
 
Perezhr said:
If you want to upgrade without breaking the bank, an STEC 30 will do nicely. If you replace the Brittain let me know. I would be interested in purchasing as is. I currently have a Brittain but could use some spare parts.
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That thought has crossed my mind, but I would have no idea how much to charge for the system. I have found a shop around here that supposedly works on Brittain system and I will talk to them to try to get more information. If you want to make an offer for my system, PM me. It might help me decide.
 
Fixed the Brittain about 5 years ago haven't hand any issues since or any regrets. I've been looking for parts to add on altitude hold, not that I need it.
 
SCCutler said:
Whatever you do, if you choose to remove the Brittain, please do not throw it away; it can be refurbed and used by someone else.

---

Edit:

The B5C is quite a capable box- you might at least consider talking with the folks at Brittain - many good stories about great service and how well the Brittains work when properly tended-to.
Click to expand...


This ^^^. For $700, I would get that Brittan unit sorted out. Of course, if you just want to write big checks, can't go wrong with STEC. Write - big - check solves many aviation problems.

http://brittainautopilots.com/pitch-stabilization.html
 
docmirror said:
This ^^^. For $700, I would get that Brittan unit sorted out. Of course, if you just want to write big checks, can't go wrong with STEC. Write - big - check solves many aviation problems.

http://brittainautopilots.com/pitch-stabilization.html
Click to expand...
I agree with you completely. And I have talked (emailed) the folks at Brittain. My problem is that when I talk to mechanics or avionics shops and mention the Brittain, their eyes roll and they start talking about STEC.

But I think I have found a shop that may still work on Brittain. I am waiting to hear back from them. The B5C is a full featured AP. It's only problem is that it is old old old and and analog. There just aren't many people to work on them. But it might even save me money to fly out to Tulsa for about a week to let Brittain have a crack at it. And I'd kind of like to visit Tulsa anyway.
 
There is a lot of Brittains out there. My brother installed one from scratch into his 172H about 4 years ago (no existing equipment). The best part is Brittain is helpful enough to supply parts and drawings to him and he could install it.

S-TECH, you're stuck using the dealer network.

Sounds like your mechanics don't want to learn anything new about older gear. :rolleyes:
 
The problem with S Techs is that they tend to wag the wings a fair amount in turbulence. If I have passengers I usually always end up turning them off as a result since I can do a smoother job by hand.
 
so....lets see.

Throw $700 at it, or.....throw the baby out with the bathwater and spend $30,000?:goofy:
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
so....lets see.

Throw $700 at it, or.....throw the baby out with the bathwater and spend $30,000?:goofy:
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Not exactly.

Throw about $700 at it, and it may or may not work. Maybe throw another amu at it and it will probably work. For a while. In the meantime, it has been in and out of the shop several times. And I will still have an old AP.

vs
Spending at most $15k (minus any trade-in or spare parts value) and have a shiny new product with a warranty.

But your point is valid. That is why I am spending time researching it and trying to find someone to work on it.
 
no amount of money you throw at it will increase your airframe value. So, you might as well just repair it.

btw.....this is one of the reasons for my last aircraft sale/purchase. No matter how I ran the numbers, upgrading my old Century I wing-lever autopilot to something more modern.....just doesn't add up or make sense.:no:
 
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I'm still wondering what capability you want, how much are you willing to spend for it, and what other avionics you currently have installed or are planning to install.
 
JOhnH said:
Not exactly.

Throw about $700 at it, and it may or may not work. Maybe throw another amu at it and it will probably work. For a while. In the meantime, it has been in and out of the shop several times. And I will still have an old AP.

vs
Spending at most $15k (minus any trade-in or spare parts value) and have a shiny new product with a warranty.

But your point is valid. That is why I am spending time researching it and trying to find someone to work on it.
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You'd be doing really good to get a two axis autopilot w/installation and the integration you want for 15 AMU. Better figure 10 AMU/axis...
 
What is the warranty policy on Stech anyway? I can't seem to find it online.
 
dumb question(s): do you really need 3-axis? or even 2-axis? do you really need the thing to fly approaches for you?

Wouldn't just a single-axis AP help enroute, leaving you able to fly the approach? Is the bird a pain to keep on altitude?

(I'm not alluding to any Real-Men-Don't-Need-Autopilots thing)
 
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System 30 for $13k shows altitude hold


Lighted 3” Turn Coordinator / Roll Axis Computer
Remote Pitch Axis Computer
Turn Command in “ST” Stabilizer Mode
HDG Preselect & Hold (HDG SYSTEM NOT INCLUDED)
Altitude Hold with Remote Engage / Disengage Switch
Low and High Gain VOR/LOC/GPS Tracking
Pitch Trim Annunciation



Heading System Not Included
Add GPSS $2075.00 Installed
* Install Price May Vary By Aircraft

My Britain is "Heading Preselect" = follows the heading bug.
 
bnt83 said:
System 30 for $13k shows altitude hold


Lighted 3” Turn Coordinator / Roll Axis Computer
Remote Pitch Axis Computer
Turn Command in “ST” Stabilizer Mode
HDG Preselect & Hold (HDG SYSTEM NOT INCLUDED)
Altitude Hold with Remote Engage / Disengage Switch
Low and High Gain VOR/LOC/GPS Tracking
Pitch Trim Annunciation



Heading System Not Included
Add GPSS $2075.00 Installed
* Install Price May Vary By Aircraft

My Britain is "Heading Preselect" = follows the heading bug.
Click to expand...

My error - no pitch command on the base 30 but it does have alt hold. It won't couple to a glideslope or do vertical speed control.
 
JOhnH said:
I agree with you completely. And I have talked (emailed) the folks at Brittain. My problem is that when I talk to mechanics or avionics shops and mention the Brittain, their eyes roll and they start talking about STEC.

But I think I have found a shop that may still work on Brittain. I am waiting to hear back from them. The B5C is a full featured AP. It's only problem is that it is old old old and and analog. There just aren't many people to work on them. But it might even save me money to fly out to Tulsa for about a week to let Brittain have a crack at it. And I'd kind of like to visit Tulsa anyway.
Click to expand...

Nice folks at Brittain. Make sure you are on their schedule or you might not get your plane back for a while. Certainly they are old, but once fitted and running right, they rarely fail.
 
Good comments and info. Even the ones that make fun of me or criticize me. I learn the most from those.
I'm definitely going to pursue getting this fixed. As has been mentioned all I really need is one that can hold it straight and level. My wife and I took the 172 from florida to Arizona with no AP. we plan similar or longer trips but we don't want to hand fly the whole way again.
 
Bob Noel said:
dumb question(s): do you really need 3-axis? or even 2-axis? do you really need the thing to fly approaches for you?

Wouldn't just a single-axis AP help enroute, leaving you able to fly the approach? Is the bird a pain to keep on altitude?

(I'm not alluding to any Real-Men-Don't-Need-Autopilots thing)
Click to expand...

Have you done much real IMC single pilot work?

Long and short, if you're just going to be a VMC practice approach king, or are just using it VMC to help with airspace or something, no, you can get away without it.

If you're flying in real IMC it's a hugly important tool, so much so that for 135 operations no autopilot = no IFR.
 
Ron Levy said:
I'm still wondering what capability you want, how much are you willing to spend for it, and what other avionics you currently have installed or are planning to install.
Click to expand...

I have never had an autopilot, and I have never had an IFR rating, so I don't really know what capability I NEED. That is why I am asking for advice.

My budget is pretty much whatever it takes for a reasonable system. I am retiring soon and unless my investments do surprisingly well, I don't foresee selling the Bonanza to buy anything better, newer or faster before I decide to give up flying.

My current avionics include:
530w and a connected Garmin 696
Garmin 225 NAV
HSI
Shadin fuel totalizer (that is as old as the Brittain AP, but is still accurate).
Stormscope (which I haven't had the opportunity to test yet)
GTX 330 mode s
GMA 340 audio panel
EDM 700 monitor
GAMI injectors
Whelen LEDs
Hartzel Top Prop 3-Blade prop (Engine and Prop each have less than 100 hrs)
plus all the usual stuff, and a lot of D'Shannon and other performance STCs.
And it has a hand painted picture of Spiderman on the side. :D
 
This becomes one of those 'when to you HAVE to get there?' vs 'When do you WANT to get there ?' deals, plus the addition of the comfort factor. I had a Brittain wing leveler on my first Bo, and I'm going to put it on the one I have now, just for the comfort factor. If I were constantly flying 4-5 hour legs, that would indicate a NEED for an A/P with all the bells. You can stop anytime when you are retired; take a break, find a hotel, whatev.
 
James331 said:
Have you done much real IMC single pilot work?

Long and short, if you're just going to be a VMC practice approach king, or are just using it VMC to help with airspace or something, no, you can get away without it.

If you're flying in real IMC it's a hugly important tool, so much so that for 135 operations no autopilot = no IFR.
Click to expand...

emphasis on the "(I'm not alluding to any Real-Men-Don't-Need-Autopilots thing)"

I did enough single pilot actual IMC in my cherokee 140 that I put a single-axis STEC in it. It was a nice-to-have, it was not on my personal MEL. But it was definitely useful on the flights with 3 hours spent in the soup.

I haven't flown a Bo, so I don't know how hard it is to hand-fly approaches in it or maintain altitude enroute... thus the questions.
 
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