Auto Fuel STC update

Henning said:
They can't issue the old STC anymore, but it is still valid. EAA just doesn't have any of the old stickers, can't provide them, or would rather sell you the new STC. I don't see where you can't reproduce the the notice as defined in the currently held STC though.
Click to expand...
You could copy this and make a sticker, but I'd bet the first ramp checker would have a fit.
Compliance
No later than August 1, 2000, replace previously installed fuel placards with revised fuel placards which specifically state:

THIS AIRCRAFT IS APPROVED TO USE THE
FOLLOWING UNLEADED GASOLINES:
Automotive Gasoline 87 Min. AKI
Per ASTM Spec. D-4814

82 UL Aviation Gasoline
Per ASTM Spec. D-6227 (Color Purple)

DO NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE GASOLINE CONTAINING ALCOHOL
 
I'm wondering how many old STC that are being used are out of compliance.
 
Tom-D said:
I'm wondering how many old STC that are being used are out of compliance.
Click to expand...

I'm almost certain I'm out of compliance. I'm almost certain a FSDO/FAA ramp checker wouldn't know the diff. I'm very certain I don't care enough to change the stickers. If I were ordered to comply, I would get stickers from a local sticker shop and slap em on.

Then I'll file a flight plan so I won't crash.
 
THIS AIRCRAFT IS APPROVED TO USE THE
FOLLOWING UNLEADED GASOLINES:
Automotive Gasoline 87 Min. AKI
Per ASTM Spec. D-4814

82 UL Aviation Gasoline
Per ASTM Spec. D-6227 (Color Purple)

DO NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE GASOLINE CONTAINING ALCOHOL

Am I the only one who notices that 82 UL avgas hasn't been made in - oh, 15 years or more?
 
Geico266 said:
Know what it cost me to switch my planes to mogas? :rolleyes: :rofl:

It was less that it cost me to post this response. :lol:
Click to expand...

I love owning an experimental. Never going back to a certificated aircraft unless I win the lotto and then can afford to light a cigar with a new $100 bill very day and never notice the loss.

BTW, My old Cherokee had the Petersen autofuel STC from 1998 and the fuel tank placards were made from metal, and to this day are still as legible as when new. The Cherokee is still based at my home airport and the new owner runs autofuel in it all the time whenever he can find ethanol-free autofuel locally.
 
Tom-D said:
You could copy this and make a sticker, but I'd bet the first ramp checker would have a fit.
Compliance
No later than August 1, 2000, replace previously installed fuel placards with revised fuel placards which specifically state:

THIS AIRCRAFT IS APPROVED TO USE THE
FOLLOWING UNLEADED GASOLINES:
Automotive Gasoline 87 Min. AKI
Per ASTM Spec. D-4814

82 UL Aviation Gasoline
Per ASTM Spec. D-6227 (Color Purple)

DO NOT USE AUTOMOTIVE GASOLINE CONTAINING ALCOHOL
Click to expand...

original.png
 
Silvaire said:
original.png
Click to expand...

Does that label maker have an STC for making certified labels? If not you cannot own it because you own a certified airplane. It cannot even be in your home. You may have to get divorced if your wife has one at work. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: :mad2:

This whole thread is absurd to me. Do you guys have any idea how ridiculously brainwashed you sound fighting over what piece of paper and how old the labels are to burn mogas in your private airplane? Loose the paperwork and you have to stop burning the fuel you used last week? :rofl: :nono:

There is certainly enough history on certified planes now to know and understand, and to modify planes for mogas for certified planes. Just do it.

Before you sheeple get all worked up, think about it. This is another in a long line of reasons why GA is dying.

Will all due respect, Jim's attitude is another......…

Jim_R said:
I can't remember the last time, let's see...anything for my plane cost me $40 or less.

I wouldn't even blink. At least it wasn't $100 for spark plugs, or $400 for a yoke-mount thumb switch, or $15,000 for an IFR-rated GPS, or....
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
Again, a lot of misinformation here.

The original STC is not invalid. The only way to rescind or change the STC is via the Part 39 Airworthiness Directive route. The owner of the STC may make a change, such as in this instance and require a new sticker, however he can't legally force you to comply as long as you are in compliance with the original STC.

Manufacturers cannot issue AD's, only the FAA can do that. A manufacturer may implement a SB or SL but it is not required compliance under part 91.

However, unless any method, technique, or practice prescribed by an OEM in any of its documents is specifically mandated by a regulatory document, such as Airworthiness Directive(AD), or specific regulatory language such as
that in § 43.15(b); those methods, techniques, or practices are not mandatory.


http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8620_2A.pdf
 
RotorAndWing said:
Again, a lot of misinformation here.

The original STC is not invalid. The only way to rescind or change the STC is via the Part 39 Airworthiness Directive route. The owner of the STC may make a change, such as in this instance and require a new sticker, however he can't legally force you to comply as long as you are in compliance with the original STC.

Manufacturers cannot issue AD's, only the FAA can do that. A manufacturer may implement a SB or SL but it is not required compliance under part 91.

However, unless any method, technique, or practice prescribed by an OEM in any of its documents is specifically mandated by a regulatory document, such as Airworthiness Directive(AD), or specific regulatory language such as
that in § 43.15(b); those methods, techniques, or practices are not mandatory.


http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/8620_2A.pdf
Click to expand...

Moot point, the EAA will not sell you the old stickers that are required to comply with the STC instructions. What does Block 7 of the 337 installing the STC require of the A&P-IA.
 
Tom-D said:
Moot point, the EAA will not sell you the old stickers that are required to comply with the STC instructions. What does Block 7 of the 337 installing the STC require of the A&P-IA.
Click to expand...
I'm just curious... does the STC require those specific stickers, provided by the seller, or does it just require a placard with specific wording? I don't have a copy to look at, obviously.
 
You can make your own stickers. A decent label maker however will cost you more than forty bucks unless you've already got one.
 
DaleB said:
I'm just curious... does the STC require those specific stickers, provided by the seller, or does it just require a placard with specific wording? I don't have a copy to look at, obviously.
Click to expand...

I would assume (I had a few of those STC's over the years) it requires specific wording. Unless the STC has a part number for the sticker and specifically states that number to be installed, then no.

Again, the STC holder cannot on his own invalidate an STC and add or change requirements without using a required process (such as an AD). The holder may put out a notice to the effect of "You are now required to buy my new and improved sticker" but without a regulation to to back it up (such as Part 39) it's not enforceable.

Silvaire said:
You can make your own stickers. A decent label maker however will cost you more than forty bucks unless you've already got one.
Click to expand...

Yep. :thumbsup:

Or you can take a digital picture of the sticker, take it to a print shop and have them digitally reproduce the exact same sticker.
 
Last edited:
Henning said:
What rule says the placard has to be supplied by them? I can go to the craft store and buy sheets of stick on letters in various sizes and colors for a couple of bucks. I can go to the engraver kiosk in the mall and they'll make me a placard already lettered for a few dollars extra.
Click to expand...
Really.
ACS sells (or at least used to) the stickers.
 
Tom-D said:
Moot point, the EAA will not sell you the old stickers that are required to comply with the STC instructions. What does Block 7 of the 337 installing the STC require of the A&P-IA.
Click to expand...

You're inventing a problem that doesn't exist. Make your own placard to match as defined in the STC, simple. When they did my panel they got a decal set from an aftermarket supplier, not Cessna.
 
RotorAndWing said:
I would assume (I had a few of those STC's over the years) it requires specific wording. Unless the STC has a part number for the sticker and specifically states that number to be installed, then no.

The placards have a EAA P/N

Again, the STC holder cannot on his own invalidate an STC and add or change requirements without using a required process (such as an AD). The holder may put out a notice to the effect of "You are now required to buy my new and improved sticker" but without a regulation to to back it up (such as Part 39) it's not enforceable.

Or you can take a digital picture of the sticker, take it to a print shop and have them digitally reproduce the exact same sticker.
Click to expand...

Your lack of understanding of this shows once again if you can't down load it from the internet you will get it wrong. No STC is valid if it not in compliance with its Instructions of Continued Airworthiness.
Your basic lack of understanding of the term "Proper Altered Condition" and the duties of a A&P-IA to insure airworthiness demonstrates you never been schooled as the FAA would require of any ASI or Operations personal.
 
Tom-D said:
Your lack of understanding of this shows once again if you can't down load it from the internet you will get it wrong. No STC is valid if it not in compliance with its Instructions of Continued Airworthiness.
Your basic lack of understanding of the term "Proper Altered Condition" and the duties of a A&P-IA to insure airworthiness demonstrates you never been schooled as the FAA would require of any ASI or Operations personal.
Click to expand...

:rolleyes2:

:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
DaleB said:
I'm just curious... does the STC require those specific stickers, provided by the seller, or does it just require a placard with specific wording? I don't have a copy to look at, obviously.
Click to expand...

The whole STC comes as a kit. (mostly paper) To be installed and returned to service by a A&P-IA on a 337 by signing block 7 which says the -IA insures the STC was installed IAW the STC instructions.
In my case the STC is not installed IAW the STC instructions because the stickers are missing, thus when I run auto I am not in an airworthy condition. Simply because the STC is invalid due to the inability to obtain the old stickers, which BTW were updated in 2004, by authority of the FAA.
 
Tom-D said:
The whole STC comes as a kit. (mostly paper) To be installed and returned to service by a A&P-IA on a 337 by signing block 7 which says the -IA insures the STC was installed IAW the STC instructions.
In my case the STC is not installed IAW the STC instructions because the stickers are missing, thus when I run auto I am not in an airworthy condition. Simply because the STC is invalid due to the inability to obtain the old stickers, which BTW were updated in 2004, by authority of the FAA.
Click to expand...

Please show us the letter by the FAA.
 
Tom-D said:
The whole STC comes as a kit. (mostly paper) To be installed and returned to service by a A&P-IA on a 337 by signing block 7 which says the -IA insures the STC was installed IAW the STC instructions.
In my case the STC is not installed IAW the STC instructions because the stickers are missing, thus when I run auto I am not in an airworthy condition. Simply because the STC is invalid due to the inability to obtain the old stickers, which BTW were updated in 2004, by authority of the FAA.
Click to expand...

That is a fallacy, you can obtain the stickers, just not from EAA.
 
I don't understand what the beef is here, either print up your own placards or pay forty bucks for a set. The required text of the placard is printed on the STC paperwork right in front of you. You could even xerox it, put some packaging tape over the face and glue to the panel.

What's the problem?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Please show us the letter by the FAA.
Click to expand...

Why would I have access to that? it's probably at EAA some where. giving them authorization to change the STC.

Point 1, the STC has never been rescinded it has been changed, and with out being properly installed it would be unairworthy to run auto while in that condition.

Point 2, I can't complete the annual as airworthy with out a set of stickers that comply with the new version of the STC.

Until you understand the term "Airworthy or in its properly altered condition" the concept will be lost on you.

This thread is a prime example you can not come to a proper conclusion to the original question, as a ASI should be able to do.
 
Tom-D said:
Why would I have access to that? it's probably at EAA some where. giving them authorization to change the STC.

Point 1, the STC has never been rescinded it has been changed, and with out being properly installed it would be unairworthy to run auto while in that condition.

Point 2, I can't complete the annual as airworthy with out a set of stickers that comply with the new version of the STC.

Until you understand the term "Airworthy or in its properly altered condition" the concept will be lost on you.

This thread is a prime example you can not come to a proper conclusion to the original question, as a ASI should be able to do.
Click to expand...

No, your responses are again evidence that shows what a few here have concluded. It's amazing you can actually hold an A&P, much less an IA.
 
Henning said:
That is a fallacy, you can obtain the stickers, just not from EAA.
Click to expand...

Silvaire said:
I don't understand what the beef is here, either print up your own placards or pay forty bucks for a set. The required text of the placard is printed on the STC paperwork right in front of you. You could even xerox it, put some packaging tape over the face and glue to the panel.

What's the problem?
Click to expand...

You both are correct.
 
Silvaire said:
I don't understand what the beef is here,

The beef here is Rotor doesn't know what airworthiness is


What's the problem?
Click to expand...


That is the problem. most folks here are not required to know how to do or to understand Instructions for continued airworthiness on STCs and sure as hell Rotor doesn't, because he can't look it up on the internet.

If he ever did work for the FAA that's probably why he doesn't now.
 
RotorAndWing said:
No, your responses are again evidence that shows what a few here have concluded. It's amazing you can actually hold an A&P, much less an IA.
Click to expand...

It's probably amazing to you because you don't understand the concept of what we do.

You don't have the first clue as to how a holder of an STC gets it changed / upgraded. It sure as hell isn't by AD. when the holder of an STC can issue their own ADs general aviation will be out of business.
 
weirdjim said:
DON'T MUD RASSLE WITH A PIG. You get all dirty and the pig likes it.Jim
Click to expand...

pretty much, you assume I can't get down and dirty. :)

It's been proven time and time again Mr. Anon (as Ron Called him) can be wrong so many times and still believe we think he is a FAA worker.

What's really sad is he enjoys turning a thread like this that was meant for learning into a pizzing contest. and the mods allow it.
 
Last edited:
Tom-D said:
pretty much, you assume I can't get down and dirty. :)

It's been proven time and time again Mr. Anon (as Ron Called him) can be wrong so many times and still believe we think he is a FAA worker.

What's really sad is he enjoys turning a thread like this that was meant for learning into a pizzing contest. and the mods allow it.
Click to expand...

No, what you don't like is when someone (not just me) counters your inane and twisted arguments with factual information. You like to spread so much misinformation it's not even amusing.

Unlike most on this board, I've seen firsthand some 337's you wrote and submitted. Amateurish would be an adequate description. In fact, on one 337 you wrote on your Fairchild you wrote on the back "permission for field approval to install alternator" in the remarks field. I pointed that out to you and you got it corrected before it came under scrutiny, such as when you wrecked your Fairchild. Had the FAA seen that your IA would have been toast.

Argue all you want Tom, but the fact is on this subject (and many others) you are flat out wrong.

Learning?? What? You make asinine statements that aren't even true and then you want to call that learning?? Sorry Tom, if you want to continue putting out false and misleading information then other forum members have the right to call you out on it.
 
So, setting aside the mud-slinging, the technical crux of this argument appears to be over whether the actual physical stickers that come in the STC kit are required on the plane, or only a facsimile of the stickers with the required wording.

Tom, your argument is that you can't sign the 337, because without the actual physical stickers you can't assert that the installation has been performed IAW the STC instructions.

So what, exactly, are the specific installation instructions that came with the STC? Could you quote them for us?

I'm curious to understand how the STC specifies the use of a specific sticker in a way that was verifiable. If the instructions just say, "Install the included sticker," how would an IA performing a subsequent annual know if the sticker on the plane was the one provided or not? Is there a part # specified?
 
Jim_R said:
So, setting aside the mud-slinging, the technical crux of this argument appears to be over whether the actual physical stickers that come in the STC kit are required on the plane, or only a facsimile of the stickers with the required wording.

Tom, your argument is that you can't sign the 337, because without the actual physical stickers you can't assert that the installation has been performed IAW the STC instructions.

So what, exactly, are the specific installation instructions that came with the STC? Could you quote them for us?

I'm curious to understand how the STC specifies the use of a specific sticker in a way that was verifiable. If the instructions just say, "Install the included sticker," how would an IA performing a subsequent annual know if the sticker on the plane was the one provided or not? Is there a part # specified?
Click to expand...
The original STC was completed a longtime ago the 337 was recorded then. When I recovered the wings the stickers were removed with the old covers. I did not suspect there would be any problem getting new ones.
Any STC that is not in compliance with its installation instructions is not legal. it is that simple. Plus when the STC isn't legal the aircraft isn't airworthy because it is not in its properly altered condition.

I will not use home made stickers simply because the new paper work for the revised STC is different than the old in its wording for the use of the auto fuel that is in use now.
I don't really care if that is legal or not, hokey looking stickers won't be placed on this aircraft. It will be correct or it won't be at all.
 
Last edited:
Then spend $40 on the new STC, or throw the old STC away. There are tons of shops out there though that make perfectly good non hokey looking stickers that would match the old, EAA uses one. The days of litho press runs for everything are long gone, all this stuff is now done affordably one off on ink jet printers that have dyes more stable than litho dyes.
 
Tom-D said:
Simply because the STC is invalid due to the inability to obtain the old stickers, which BTW were updated in 2004, by authority of the FAA.
Click to expand...

Unless my memory is totally faulty, the required fuel placards need only state type, minimum octane and fuel quantity. So, to my line of thinking if they state auto fuel is acceptable so is 100LL. As Rotor said; your old STC is still valid without the new placards.
 
Norman said:
Unless my memory is totally faulty, the required fuel placards need only state type, minimum octane and fuel quantity. So, to my line of thinking if they state auto fuel is acceptable so is 100LL. As Rotor said; your old STC is still valid without the new placards.
Click to expand...

There is no such thing as the old STC, the STC was simply updated. The 337 filed way back when is still in the history file for the aircraft but as is, is not in compliance with out stickers.
So I can't run auto, big deal. but if the STC is valid it must be in compliance for the aircraft to be airworthy.
 
Tom, so I understand, are you saying that in order for it to be airworthy, that is, legal to use the mogas, it HAS to have the original stickers?

Follow up question. If the stickers were still there, would it still be legal to fly, or did the fact that an updated STC became available invalidate the original STC?
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top