ATP? Yay or Nay?

KeyWestPhotog

KeyWestPhotog

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WingMan
I will be retiring soon from my current job, and was exploring the "idear" of looking to take the Fast Track course for PPLs from ATP. I have spoken with several CFI/CFII's from Miami down to Key West, and I am hearing allot of negative things regarding ATP from these folks about the school being just a "pilot mill" that almost looks like a cattle auction.

Do any of you on here have opinions and/or experiences whether positive or negative about my "idear" of heading to ATP?

For those that aren't sure what I'm referring to with ATP, here is the link.

ATP Flight School
 
I bet you can accomplish the same thing with a dedicated independent CFI for a lot less money.
 
OP - be sure to only accept the advice of those holding the credential of which you seek. Everything else is sciolistic dribble.

Damn-- I had to go and ruin a potentially hot thread.:mad2:
 
ATP is an effective way to get your ticket punched for the ATP certificate, but that's about it. My observation are not in the business of really training people, just getting them through a practical test for which they already have most of the experience. There are a lot of other (more effective, in my opinion) ways to go from zero to PP.

In order to be of more effective help, I'd need to know:
  • Just what are your short- and long-term aviation goals?
  • What is the time and budget you have available to commit to this task?
  • What aviation background do you have now?
 
Ron Levy said:
ATP is an effective way to get your ticket punched for the ATP certificate, but that's about it. My observation are not in the business of really training people, just getting them through a practical test for which they already have most of the experience.
Click to expand...
This is an important consideration for the OP I think....in this case, I would recommend against ATP largely based on this - ATP teaches the accelerated PPL as a stepping stone. The idea is that they teach you enough to pass the PPL checkride and then immediately move on to Commerical then CFI/I...etc.

If the OPs goal is to get a PPL and go enjoy the rating, I think you will find yourself shortchanged by a school like ATP.
 
Jaybird180 said:
OP - be sure to only accept the advice of those holding the credential of which you seek.
Click to expand...

Sometimes I am dense. What does this mean? Only accept teh advice of PPLs? That is the credential he is seeking.
 
It's expensive fast food style training

Find a experienced CFI and a cheap but solid plane and just got that route. Anyone can do fasttrack training, most of the time it only boils down to how much time the student has to commit to flight training.
 
I'm not a huge fan of accelerated training for the private. It takes more than 2 weeks to lay a foundation, which is what the PPL is.
 
"Any traffic in the pattern, please advise" :D
 
If you like the regimented approach find a 141 school local to you or work out a similar set up with a CFI.

FWIW our 141 has been able to give a private in about a month hitting it HARD
 
The school was based here for many years before they skipped town for FL. Based on the reputation here, I wouldn't consider them for future training.

Fearless Tower said:
I think he was confusing ATP the school with ATP the rating.
Click to expand...
 
I am the Chief Pilot of a 141 school here in Maryland. I have recently hired (over the last few months) 4 CFIs that came out of the ATP pilot mill. They are good pilots and good people but with EACH of them I needed to "Un-Program" certain aspects of their training.
 
I was going to get my ATP with AllATPs (as they were called back then). I paid upfront for the 10 hour course since I hadn't flown multi or instrument in years at the time and needed the extra work. As we were walking out to the plane, my instructor says, "You have to already know all this stuff because we don't have time to train you." (Seriously!!)

I never even saw the plane. Instead, I marched back in and talked to the manager about the attitude of "don't have time to teach." The manager affirmed that attitude so I got my money back and found another place that did have time to teach.

I HIGHLY recommend going elsewhere.
 
Anymouse said:
I was going to get my ATP with AllATPs (as they were called back then). I paid upfront for the 10 hour course since I hadn't flown multi or instrument in years at the time and needed the extra work. As we were walking out to the plane, my instructor says, "You have to already know all this stuff because we don't have time to train you." (Seriously!!)

I never even saw the plane. Instead, I marched back in and talked to the manager about the attitude of "don't have time to teach." The manager affirmed that attitude so I got my money back and found another place that did have time to teach.

I HIGHLY recommend going elsewhere.
Click to expand...

If the student already knows everything they need to know before they get to ATP, why would they need ATP?? :dunno:
 
A. Buy a tatty but basically airworthy Aeronca, Taylorcraft, or Luscombe.
B. Find the nastiest, grizzled old CFI you can that lives close to you.
C. Buy the PPL ground school DVDs off ebay, and buy the AIM.
D. Use A + B + C and train for your ratings.
 
docmirror said:
A. Buy a tatty but basically airworthy Aeronca, Taylorcraft, or Luscombe.
B. Find the nastiest, grizzled old CFI you can that lives close to you.
C. Buy the PPL ground school DVDs off ebay, and buy the AIM.
D. Use A + B + C and train for your ratings.
Click to expand...


Skilled > Old

I've flown with some old CFI that suck, can't even fly to PPL PTS standards, remember experience and age are two different animals.

Also found fresh CFIs can be great, they tend to put more of their heart into those first students and are fresh from training.

We've been looking for a CFI to help out at out school, had a older ex military hobby CFI, flew with him 3 times and he was under the impression his skills were somewhere they were not, also demanded over twice the going rate of his lackluster time.

Had another guy in his 30s, just got his CFI, great stick and rudder, very friendly and humble, also the kind of guy you would grab a beer with. Guess who got the job :)
 
Ron Levy said:
In order to be of more effective help, I'd need to know:
  • Just what are your short- and long-term aviation goals?
  • What is the time and budget you have available to commit to this task?
  • What aviation background do you have now?
Click to expand...

Ron, for what it's worth I have already gotten my PPL with just over 100hrs TT, 66 PIC, 57 XC (Thank god for LogTenPro, great for quick reference) all in SEL. So for the ATP it doesn't give me much to stand on as I need to move into MEL as I continue to move forward.

  • long-term aviation goals? Start a 2nd career as a Commercial Pilot whether it is for Private Charters, or the Majors.
  • What is the time? I'll be retired in 2016, so I'll have all kinds of time once I'm retired! What is the budget? The $50k that ATP charges is "do able" if needed to gain the quals, but I'm not looking to throw $ away when you don't have to.
  • What aviation background do you have now? 17 years of maintenance, management, and flight experience on tactical missions. 1st 10 years as a sheet metal & hydraulics mechanic, last 7 years in the Non-Destructive Technician field, as well as maintenance management. B.S. Degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Professional Aeronautics.
 
Anymouse said:
I was going to get my ATP with AllATPs (as they were called back then). I paid upfront for the 10 hour course since I hadn't flown multi or instrument in years at the time and needed the extra work. As we were walking out to the plane, my instructor says, "You have to already know all this stuff because we don't have time to train you." (Seriously!!)

I never even saw the plane. Instead, I marched back in and talked to the manager about the attitude of "don't have time to teach." The manager affirmed that attitude so I got my money back and found another place that did have time to teach.

I HIGHLY recommend going elsewhere.
Click to expand...

LDJones said:
If the student already knows everything they need to know before they get to ATP, why would they need ATP?? :dunno:
Click to expand...


In Anymouse's instance, if he was going to AllATPs to get only his ATP, they really aren't going to teach him much. He should have the experience necessary. The ATP is basically a Instrument ride held to higher standards. You go to AllATPs to brush up for a few hours with an instructor and take a check ride. The ATP isn't learning anything new. It's a reaffirmation of your piloting knowledge and skills.

I got my ATP while getting a type ride in a Dojet. The fact I was getting an ATP wasn't even brought up other than filling out the paperwork for it.
 
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KeyWestPhotog said:
Ron, for what it's worth I have already gotten my PPL with just over 100hrs TT, 66 PIC, 57 XC (Thank god for LogTenPro, great for quick reference) all in SEL. So for the ATP it doesn't give me much to stand on as I need to move into MEL as I continue to move forward.

  • long-term aviation goals? Start a 2nd career as a Commercial Pilot whether it is for Private Charters, or the Majors.
  • What is the time? I'll be retired in 2016, so I'll have all kinds of time once I'm retired! What is the budget? The $50k that ATP charges is "do able" if needed to gain the quals, but I'm not looking to throw $ away when you don't have to.
  • What aviation background do you have now? 17 years of maintenance, management, and flight experience on tactical missions. 1st 10 years as a sheet metal & hydraulics mechanic, last 7 years in the Non-Destructive Technician field, as well as maintenance management. B.S. Degree from Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Professional Aeronautics.
Click to expand...


Avoid certificate mills, accelerated training is fine and dandy but only if it isn't short on the training. Find a small 141 school that can run you through if you want it done in a "hurry"

However you are still going to need to build some major hours before you are employable for charters or the majors.
 
You do know no matter where you go, your going to hit the market with 250tt.

I'd focus on more immediate jobs that you will qualify for (you won't meet 135 or 121 mins, no charter or majs) besides the mins won't get you far when other applicants are above and beyond what's legally required.

One thought, find a flight school that also runs a healthy charter company, get your CFI and work you way up to 135mins, then on to their charter work, promote from within.
 
Jaybird180, my compliments.
As the child of an English teacher
And the holder of a degree in English, and others, through the doctoral level in science
It is not very often I bump into a word I do not know.
You made my day.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
You do know no matter where you go, your going to hit the market with 250tt.

I'd focus on more immediate jobs that you will qualify for (you won't meet 135 or 121 mins, no charter or majs) besides the mins won't get you far when other applicants are above and beyond what's legally required.

One thought, find a flight school that also runs a healthy charter company, get your CFI and work you way up to 135mins, then on to their charter work, promote from within.
Click to expand...

Hey I know a place like that!

Weather sucks by Florida standards though.
 
KeyWestPhotog said:
I will be retiring soon from my current job, and was exploring the "idear" of looking to take the Fast Track course for PPLs from ATP. I have spoken with several CFI/CFII's from Miami down to Key West, and I am hearing allot of negative things regarding ATP from these folks about the school being just a "pilot mill" that almost looks like a cattle auction.

Do any of you on here have opinions and/or experiences whether positive or negative about my "idear" of heading to ATP?

For those that aren't sure what I'm referring to with ATP, here is the link.

ATP Flight School
Click to expand...


You're not going to get an unbiased answer on this forum. Most people here are straight Part 61 graduates or Part 61 Instructors.

I'm not in any way going to bash anyone here, instructors or pilots. But from the responses you can tell there is an obvious slant to the advise. First off they refer to Part 141 as 'Puppy Mills'. That's designed to make them feel superior. A 'puppy' is a little dog that know nothing but how to suck it mothers teat. So we have PPL's here calling Commercial Multi Instrument rated pilots 'puppys'. That should set off an alarm or two right there...but I'll go on;

Also,

These pilots here (mostly) all obtained their licenses (certificates really) from Part 61 Programs. That's where you fly with a guy and he teaches you and you take a test with the government and if you pass you get the certificate.

Here's the problem...If you're instructor is good then great! If not then 'oh well'. There is no standardization with part 61 other than the PTS. You could have a retard or you could have Cap'n Ron (that was a plug for Cap'n Ron btw...he's about as sharp as I've ever seen).

There is ZERO testing for part 61 CFI's. Once they have the rating they do as they please. If they do super well then the FAA gives them a Gold Stamp on their Cert. I suppose you could insist upon a Gold CFI but they are pretty rare and generally not smart enough to advertise their cert or even charge more for it.

Point is...Part 141 has a syllabus that is approved by the FAA. They have to meet certain pass rates. They are over seen by the Feds. There instructors are fresh out of instruction. (Might seem bad but I had a 'salty part 61 CFI' who didn't even know the class airspace of his home field. That would never happen part 141). Fresh kids are up on whats going on now with regs and are going to know how to operate the equipment in the plane.

I'm not dumping on Part 61. I got my PPL that way and was happy. Just sayin there's another side to the standard story you're going to get here...on this forum...as most hate 'puppy mills'. (you can tell because nobody calls part 141 schools 'puppy mills' except jaded pilots)
 
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Captain said:
You're not going to get an unbiased answer on this forum. Most people here are straight Part 61 graduates or Part 61 Instructors.

I'm not in any way going to bash anyone here, instructors or pilots. But from the responses you can tell there is an obvious slant to the advise. First off they refer to Part 141 as 'Puppy Mills'. That's designed to make them feel superior. A 'puppy' is a little dog that know nothing but how to suck it mothers teat. So we have PPL's here calling Commercial Multi Instrument rated pilots 'puppys'. That should set off an alarm or two right there...but I'll go on;

Also,

These pilots here (mostly) all obtained their licenses (certificates really) from Part 61 Programs. That's where you fly with a guy and he teaches you and you take a test with the government and if you pass you get the certificate.

Here's the problem...If you're instructor is good then great! If not then 'oh well'. There is no standardization with part 61 other than the PTS. You could have a retard or you could have Cap'n Ron (that was a plug for Cap'n Ron btw...he's about as sharp as I've ever seen).

There is ZERO testing for part 61 CFI's. Once they have the rating they do as they please. If they do super well then the FAA gives them a Gold Stamp on their Cert. I suppose you could insist upon a Gold CFI but they are pretty rare and generally not smart enough to advertise their cert or even charge more for it.

Point is...Part 141 has a syllabus that is approved by the FAA. They have to meet certain pass rates. They are over seen by the Feds. There instructors are fresh out of instruction. (Might seem bad but I had a 'salty part 61 CFI' who didn't even know the class airspace of his home field. That would never happen part 141). Fresh kids are up on whats going on now with regs and are going to know how to operate the equipment in the plane.

I'm not dumping on Part 61. I got my PPL that way and was happy. Just sayin there's another side to the standard story you're going to get here...on this forum...as most hate 'puppy mills'. (you can tell because nobody calls part 141 schools 'puppy mills' except jaded pilots)
Click to expand...

Your entire post is based on a false premise therefore void of relevancy, because ATP is Part 61.

And "puppy mill" does not mean what you think it means.
 
A little background about me. During my active duty service, I was stationed in Miami FL in 1999 and decided to get my PPL at Broward Community College (BCC) Aviation Dept. At the time BCC contracted Florida Institute of Technology for the flight school. During my Instrument training in 2000 at BCC, contracted COMAIR from Sanford FL. They were both Part 141.

I've served 24 years in the US Navy and retired due to High Year of Tenure (HYT) as an ITC(SW/AW). ITC is the acroymn for Information Systems Technician Chief. SW/AW stands for Surface Warfare Specialist & Aviation Warfare Specialist. Prior to my retirement, I managed to also get my BS at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University World-wide in Professional Aeronautic.

While I was on terminal leave, I went to ATP flight school at Jacksonville Executive (KCRG) and from Jan 2012 - March 2012, I got my CPL, CFI, CFII, and MEI. I've heard ATP being called a Pilot Factory, it's true however, I've busted my arse studying every single day and night; pretty much not having a married life.

ATP guarantees you to work for them as a Flight Instructor however, I needed time off every now and then. I've heard active ATP Flight Instructors say that they don't get much time off. Again, I'm still married and have a family life too.

Now, I'm a full time Flight Instructor and my TT given since August 2012 is 709 hrs and my TT 1037 hrs.

What I regretted was taking out ATP's flight loan with Sallie Mae. Now, I've got a strict budget to stick to.

I would recommend you look at your finances, maybe using your Post 911 GI Bill for another degree while getting your CPL/CFI.

Best of luck,
Darren
 
I got only my CFI ratings at ATP JAX. I went because I had read good things about Walt, who i understand no longer holds ground school there anymore.

The others in my class had, for the most part, JUST come off of their Comm checkrides in the 2 days prior, and had not even cracked the CFI materials. They were behind the curve throughout and it was very high stress for them.

Since I'm a part 61 a-hole :rolleyes2:, I had the time before showing up in JAX to review the materials and show with cooked lesson plans and a good idea of what I was in for. I had also read the materials we were going to review. The class was actually a bit slow-paced for me, but I tend to apply myself to things I find interesting.

I thought their CFI program was a good one, and there WAS instruction both on ground and in the plane -- it wasn't just a ratings-pass game. I had significant take-aways from my 2 weeks there.

My impression from watching the antics of the accelerated course kids around me was not very good. I don't think I'd recommend the full monty to anyone. That said, I haven't done it. But I think for my money, I'd buy a plane to learn in, or bounce up all of the schools around me and hope I found a good one to roost in for awhile. 60k is a lot to bet on an education -- I'd want to be real cautious where I invested those funds.

$0.02
 
Captain said:
You're not going to get an unbiased answer on this forum. Most people here are straight Part 61 graduates or Part 61 Instructors.

I'm not in any way going to bash anyone here, instructors or pilots. But from the responses you can tell there is an obvious slant to the advise. First off they refer to Part 141 as 'Puppy Mills'. That's designed to make them feel superior. A 'puppy' is a little dog that know nothing but how to suck it mothers teat. So we have PPL's here calling Commercial Multi Instrument rated pilots 'puppys'. That should set off an alarm or two right there...but I'll go on;

Also,

These pilots here (mostly) all obtained their licenses (certificates really) from Part 61 Programs. That's where you fly with a guy and he teaches you and you take a test with the government and if you pass you get the certificate.

Here's the problem...If you're instructor is good then great! If not then 'oh well'. There is no standardization with part 61 other than the PTS. You could have a retard or you could have Cap'n Ron (that was a plug for Cap'n Ron btw...he's about as sharp as I've ever seen).

There is ZERO testing for part 61 CFI's. Once they have the rating they do as they please. If they do super well then the FAA gives them a Gold Stamp on their Cert. I suppose you could insist upon a Gold CFI but they are pretty rare and generally not smart enough to advertise their cert or even charge more for it.

Point is...Part 141 has a syllabus that is approved by the FAA. They have to meet certain pass rates. They are over seen by the Feds. There instructors are fresh out of instruction. (Might seem bad but I had a 'salty part 61 CFI' who didn't even know the class airspace of his home field. That would never happen part 141). Fresh kids are up on whats going on now with regs and are going to know how to operate the equipment in the plane.

I'm not dumping on Part 61. I got my PPL that way and was happy. Just sayin there's another side to the standard story you're going to get here...on this forum...as most hate 'puppy mills'. (you can tell because nobody calls part 141 schools 'puppy mills' except jaded pilots)
Click to expand...
I've got all of the fixed-wing CFI ratings and have given nearly 1800 hours of dual over the 30+ years I've been a CFI. I've taught at both 141 and 61 schools. It's not about the school or whether it's 61 or 141, it's all about the individual instructor that you use. The best curriculum and the newest equipment won't compensate for a mediocre instructor, but a good instructor can compensate for just about anything.
 
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Dr. O said:
Jaybird180, my compliments.
As the child of an English teacher
And the holder of a degree in English, and others, through the doctoral level in science
It is not very often I bump into a word I do not know.
You made my day.
Click to expand...

Your gratitude humbles me sir.
 
Gadgetman said:
A little background about me. During my active duty service, I was stationed in Miami FL in 1999 and decided to get my PPL at Broward Community College (BCC) Aviation Dept. At the time BCC contracted Florida Institute of Technology for the flight school. During my Instrument training in 2000 at BCC, contracted COMAIR from Sanford FL. They were both Part 141.

I've served 24 years in the US Navy and retired due to High Year of Tenure (HYT) as an ITC(SW/AW). ITC is the acroymn for Information Systems Technician Chief. SW/AW stands for Surface Warfare Specialist & Aviation Warfare Specialist. Prior to my retirement, I managed to also get my BS at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University World-wide in Professional Aeronautic.

While I was on terminal leave, I went to ATP flight school at Jacksonville Executive (KCRG) and from Jan 2012 - March 2012, I got my CPL, CFI, CFII, and MEI. I've heard ATP being called a Pilot Factory, it's true however, I've busted my arse studying every single day and night; pretty much not having a married life.

ATP guarantees you to work for them as a Flight Instructor however, I needed time off every now and then. I've heard active ATP Flight Instructors say that they don't get much time off. Again, I'm still married and have a family life too.

Now, I'm a full time Flight Instructor and my TT given since August 2012 is 709 hrs and my TT 1037 hrs.

What I regretted was taking out ATP's flight loan with Sallie Mae. Now, I've got a strict budget to stick to.

I would recommend you look at your finances, maybe using your Post 911 GI Bill for another degree while getting your CPL/CFI.

Best of luck,
Darren
Click to expand...

Damn that's a lot of hours in a little under a year.

What are the odds of getting a CFI position in a school that busy? I don't think my school is anywhere close to that.
 
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