ATP? Yay or Nay?

Captain said:
.... First off they refer to Part 141 as 'Puppy Mills'. That's designed to make them feel superior. A 'puppy' is a little dog that know nothing but how to suck it mothers teat. So we have PPL's here calling Commercial Multi Instrument rated pilots 'puppys'. That should set off an alarm or two right there...but I'll go on;
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*A.. That's not what a puppy mill is AT ALL, and the comment wasn't calling 141 or 61 schools mills, it was calling ATP a mill, they just turn out pilots as fast as they can, read up on pprune about it.*

Captain said:
....
These pilots here (mostly) all obtained their licenses (certificates really) from Part 61 Programs. That's where you fly with a guy and he teaches you and you take a test with the government and if you pass you get the certificate.
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*Which is the same damn thing as 141, you train to PTS standards, demonstrate to the PTS level and you earn your ticket


Captain said:
....
Here's the problem...If you're instructor is good then great! If not then 'oh well'. There is no standardization with part 61 other than the PTS. You could have a retard or you could have Cap'n Ron (that was a plug for Cap'n Ron btw...he's about as sharp as I've ever seen).
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*And there are no crappy instructors in 141 schools?*

Captain said:
....
There is ZERO testing for part 61 CFI's.*
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LMAO, are you high or just stupid? Yea guess that long oral and flight test at the FSDO never happened.*

*Guess what no matter if you want to teach 61 or 141 it's the same written and prac. tests

Captain said:
....
Once they have the rating they do as they please. If they do super well then the FAA gives them a Gold Stamp on their Cert. I suppose you could insist upon a Gold CFI but they are pretty rare and generally not smart enough to advertise their cert or even charge more for it.
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*I advertise the heck out of mine


Captain said:
....
Point is...Part 141 has a syllabus that is approved by the FAA. They have to meet certain pass rates. They are over seen by the Feds. There instructors are fresh out of instruction. (Might seem bad but I had a 'salty part 61 CFI' who didn't even know the class airspace of his home field. That would never happen part 141). Fresh kids are up on whats going on now with regs and are going to know how to operate the equipment in the plane.
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*Ive had puppy mill 141 CFIs with NO experience flying outside of the school environment didnt even know the requirements for a multi rating, I've seen those same kids NEVER mention OAT for IFR ops. *

*Most FRESH CFIs "just out of training" are eager and very cautious which is good, but some young kid (or old guy) that has never flown outside of the school scene is good, but sure as heck ain't the ideal CFI. *

Captain said:
....
I'm not dumping on Part 61. I got my PPL that way and was happy. Just sayin there's another side to the standard story you're going to get here...on this forum...as most hate 'puppy mills'. (you can tell because nobody calls part 141 schools 'puppy mills' except jaded pilots)
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*A) yes, you are dumping on 61 schools
B) NO ONE said all 141 schools are puppy mills, ATP is a puppy mill.*

*And congratulations on making one of the DUMBEST posts I have ever read on this site, it takes some work, but ******** son, you stepped up to the plate and hit a moronic home run.*
 
Thanks for everyone who posted with their experiences, and opinions. I don't discredit anyone of you for the info you provided.

Darren, it looks like our paths have crossed before but we probably never knew it. It's rare I see surface guys decide to be airdale's when they retire. Welcome to the good side, glad you left the dark one.

LearDriver said:
Are you planning on a CFI position until getting to 1500TT?
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Yes Sir, LD that would be my plan on filling up my retirement time, and building up to the minimums that the regionals would require. I'll be 37 when I retire in a few years, so I've got quiet a bit of "spring chicken" time left to burn off before I lay claim to the "old fart" title.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Skilled > Old

I've flown with some old CFI that suck, can't even fly to PPL PTS standards, remember experience and age are two different animals.

Also found fresh CFIs can be great, they tend to put more of their heart into those first students and are fresh from training.

We've been looking for a CFI to help out at out school, had a older ex military hobby CFI, flew with him 3 times and he was under the impression his skills were somewhere they were not, also demanded over twice the going rate of his lackluster time.

Had another guy in his 30s, just got his CFI, great stick and rudder, very friendly and humble, also the kind of guy you would grab a beer with. Guess who got the job :)
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Excellent point.

One of the best CFIs I have worked with (flying skill, professionalism and ability to really teach) was at the time 20 years old when he was teaching me ME flying in a Twinkie. One of the best tailwheel CFIs I know is still in his 20's and has over 1000 hrs of tailwheel time.

Age doesn't always equate with experience and skill.
 
KeyWestPhotog said:
It's rare I see surface guys decide to be airdale's when they retire. Welcome to the good side, glad you left the dark one.
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Actually, I've found out it is not that rare.

I'm a Surface Warfare Officer with a COMM ASMEL. Working on a Master's in Aeronautical Science and I fully plan to do something aviation related when I retire in 6 years. I have also run in to quite a few SWOs who have gotten their pilots license along the way. On the ship I currently work on we have at least two non-aviators with PPLs (one of them is our General Medical Officer who also holds an A&P - she worked at an FBO in CA before she went to Med school).

I believe 'Captain' was an FC or ET on a DDG before he got out and decided to fly.

You don't have to wear brown shoes to fly!
 
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Sailor, take that money and get yourself a decent airplane. With the remaining funds get instruction up and through to your CFII ratings. Bingo ! You're now in business for your self - you've got the ratings you've got the plane - you're the man. You spend that money at ATP and you become someone that "works" for the man with the only concrete thing to show for it are two nice lamented cards to carry in your wallet.
 
Captain said:
So we have PPL's here calling Commercial Multi Instrument rated pilots 'puppys'.
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Yup, do you.
Overheard the other day

"Daytona Approach XX123 would like closed traffic blah-blah"
in a bit
"Daytona Approach can you please verify that we are by Flagler and not Daytona"
"Yes you are 3 miles south of Flagler airport"
"Oh, in that case we'd like closed traffic for Flagler"
"If you want closed traffic for Flagler, you should be talking to their tower, not the approach"

That wasn't ATP. That was Phoenix East.
Puppy mill is where you fly off the 141 reqs (go see what share of that is done on a sim these days. And not a level 5 or 6 either), barely have any solo time for the private and none ever since, never go any meaningful distance away from the base airport, never get any actual time for the instrument ticket, can't tell one airplane from the other if your flight school doesn't use them - yes, that's a puppies.
 
I went to a FBO in Wisconsin for my PPL, and a FBO in California for my instrument. PPL took about six months to complete and my instument took about three. I went to ATP for AMEL, CMEL, CSEL, CFI, CFII and MEI and here is my experience;

I showed up at ATP on a Monday morning, they copied my logbook, certificates and passport. About an hour later I was in a classroom with my instructor talking about my program, and how it would be like drinking from a fire hose. A month before class started I was mailed a package from ATP with training supplements for the 172 ans Seminole. You are expected to know these supplements when you step foot on campus. The supplements have everything you need to know about the aircraft, maneuvers guides, and checklists.

My second day we flew for three hours. This was my first multi-engine flight and needless to say it was a different experience. We went out to the practice area, and worked through the maneuvers. Slow flight, stalls, steep turns, Vmc Demo, engine outs, and emergency descents. I also had to do a single engine approach to add my instrument ticket to my AMEL. Day two was more of the the same, and I took my checkride on day 5.

Immediately after my checkride my instructor and I did a sim session, and completed the CRM training. That night we began to knock out the commercial requirements. Once we fulfilled the commercial requirements I did my time building phase to get me to 250 hours. This only took four days and I was back with an instructor prepping for the commercial multi ride, and two days later I took it. Three days after that I took the CSEL. When I wasn't flying, I was constantly in the sim (which are free to use as much as you want as long as they are free), and after the sim I would be studying. My study regimen worked for me, but won't for everyone. I would study for an hour, play on my ipad for 20 minutes or so, take a nap and then repeat the process.

The instructors were always available to answer questions that we would have, but ATP is not there to coddle you. The instructors are flying constantly, you need to be completely self motivated to get your written exams done. They will get you prepped for you checkride. My biggest beef with ATP is that they have a gouge on all of the examiners that they use, and know what you need to study. They will focus heavily on those areas, and not so much on others. You will need to ensure that you are up to snuff on the areas where the instructors don't focus on.

CFI school was a completely different ball game. The first two days were solid class, days three, four and five were in the classroom as well, but the instructor was taking people up in the 172 in order to get them their spin endorsements. You are expected to fully know the aircraft, have your writtens done before you come in the door, and to be able to fly to the PTS without having to be instructed. I think I got 10 hours in the Seminole during the first phase, and it was spent teaching the checkride as well as flying the maneuvers. I was off to FXE two weeks later to take my initial ride in the Seminole. Three days later I took my II ride, and three days after that I took my ride in the single.

My opinion of ATP is mixed. They will get you through your program. They are a business, and they have mastered the art of the pipeline. You will need to be motivated to to study, and to get your butt in the sim during your free time. They know who is working and who isn't. They also know how long it should take, and if you aren't catching on, you might have to buy additional time. I bought five additional hours in the 172 during commercial in order to get my landings from the right seat down as well as the maneuvers. I did both commercials from the right seat because I knew that I was going to instructor school next and that I needed to learn to fly on that side of the plane. ATP also give you the option of being an instructor if you do your 0 to CFI with them. The plus side is that you will get a lot of hours (multi time at that) and will get to 1500 quickly. The downside is that the pay is horrible and you may not get your first choice of locations.

All in all, I would go to ATP again in a heartbeat. The program was quick, painless, and I passed all my rides on the first shot. I saw plenty of unmotivated people who failed multiple rides for simple reasons that could have been prevented if they studied a bit more. If you can handle to quick timeline, then by all means go to ATP and get it done as fast as you can.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Actually, I've found out it is not that rare.
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Fearless for me it's rare, as I was chosen to hang out with those in brown shoes for the last 17yrs. It looks as if you are in town during the January timeframe I could let ya buy me a burger or something there other than at 5 Guys. If things go as planned, I'll be in the Great Bridge area, and spending ALLOT of my time over at KCPK. Unless you know of a better venue to live/play from.

Art VanDelay said:
Sailor, take that money and get yourself a decent airplane.
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Art from the responses I see here, that does look like the more beneficial thing to do and I appreciate each of the responses. I do have quiet a bit of time left, but I'm one of those guys who "plans to plan", so that is why I'm starting now.

MD-11Loader said:
but ATP is not there to coddle you. You need to be completely self motivated to get your written exams done. My opinion of ATP is mixed. They will get you through your program. They are a business, and they have mastered the art of the pipeline. You will need to be motivated to to study, and to get your butt in the sim during your free time. I saw plenty of unmotivated people who failed multiple rides for simple reasons that could have been prevented if they studied a bit more.
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LoadMaster, thanks for joining the forums and taking the time to write about this. (Thanks to Jon, as well for getting you here) I would hope any business that wanted a good reputation in the industry would not coddle anyone, but I know reality is that $$ can buy things that it shouldn't be able to. What it sounds like is that "if you have the motivation, $, and time" then ATP is a spot to go. If you lack any of those 3 things, you are pretty much wasting your time/resources with going to ATP or any other 141 to be fair about it.
 
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That's a good summary. Also, I recommend going to a location where you can focus. I went to IWA because it was far away from my house in ATL. No girlfriend to distract me and try to draw my attention away from flying. They say that they will leave you a lone, but when you are in the same city, it doesn't work. You need to be away from outside distractions if possible.
 
Yes, you guys carve out a 1% slice for the local mom & pop shops that offer a 141 program. They're pretty few and far between and you can tell when you've found one because MOST of the students are 61.

Good on everyone for pointing out the rare beast. MOST 141 schools are what you would refer to as a 'puppy mill' and MOST of how you all described them are not my experience. I flew as much IMC percentage wise as I do now. I flew over 400 miles away during training flights. That was admittedly odd, but we'd often go 300 or so miles away.

My point, valid as it is, is that folks here tend to bash 141 training...unless it's that 1% that lines up closely with what they got. I'm a product of 141 and damn near the best pilot here!

As an example, 141 pilots tend not to reverse course on runways without permission where 61 trained pilots will argue for pages and pages of threads that it's fine to do.
 
Captain said:
'm a product of 141 and damn near the best pilot here!
.
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I like your humor Captain, now if you follow it up by saying "Mig 28's, no one has been this close before", I might let you start hanging out with Kelly McGillis and I.
 
KeyWestPhotog said:
I like your humor Captain, now if you follow it up by saying "Mig 28's, no one has been this close before", I might let you start hanging out with Kelly McGillis and I.
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Based on his previous posts...I'm wagering it ain't humor.
 
I worked at the same company as Captain in a previous life, though have never flown with him. That being said, y'all need to relax a little. He's trolling some of y'all so bad it's hysterical.


Now I'm just a guy who flies for a living, but I have met great pilots that came from 61 schools... some bad ones, too. Met some ****ty and great pilots from 141. Even met some pretty good pilots and some VERY, VERY bad pilots from the military. You just can't generalize when it comes to ones training, IMO.
 
EdFred said:
Based on his previous posts...I'm wagering it ain't humor.
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Ed I have quiet a bit experience dealing with those who attempt to carry the Egos. From F-5s, F-14s, F-18s, B-2s, b-52s, and even a Space Shuttle Endeavour pilot could be thrown in that mix as well. It just gets funnier as the more serious they try and live it out.

I have a feeling that If you set in the hanger somewhere with Capt. face-to-face you would find out he's a really great guy, with a good sense of humor and a Masters Degree in sarcasm.

I'm working on my fourth PhD in Sarcasm but my damn IFR reading keeps getting in the way.
 
Rex Kramer said:
I worked at the same company as Captain in a previous life, though have never flown with him. That being said, y'all need to relax a little. He's trolling some of y'all so bad it's hysterical.
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Based on a PM I got from him, I'm going to disagree with your assessment.
 
EdFred said:
Based on a PM I got from him, I'm going to disagree with your assessment.
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Fair enough.. I have no skin in this game. It just seems people seem to get worked up pretty quickly around here.
 
EdFred said:
Based on a PM I got from him, I'm going to disagree with your assessment.
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Really? What PM do you speak of?

Go ahead and post it...you have my permission and all.
 
Nevermind Ed, found it.

From YOU:
I think you're a pretentious self absorbed ********, and have thought that since you showed up on the board. I do give you credit for being double jointed, because I haven't seen anyone pat themselves on their back quite like you do.
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Thanks for breaking out these PMs for the world to see.
 
I log in one day to find this PM waiting for me. I forget what comment/thread got him whiny, but I was greeted with this:

Captain said:
Got a problem with me personally? Be a man and say it privately. Or keep being a puss and post your little 'feelings' publicly.
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Being the honest guy I am, I responded.

EdFred said:
I think you're a pretentious self absorbed ********, and have thought that since you showed up on the board. I do give you credit for being double jointed, because I haven't seen anyone pat themselves on their back quite like you do.
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He replied.

Captain said:
Yeah? Well I'm a guy trying to make a life in this world too. I have kids, a wife and a mortgage. I watch TV and shop at the grocery store. I vote in elections and I watched the twin towers fall on live TV.

Sorry I don't measure up to your special requirements.

Go **** you sf and don't ever respond to my posts again.


Oh...and your are a prick.
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Yeah, I don't really follow requests all that well and sometimes I just have to say something.

EdFred said:
1) I'm not double jointed. Though if I could go **** myself, it would solve certain, uh, issues.

2) You don't make the board rules. I will respond to whatever posts I do or don't want to. Always have, always will. If you don't want people responding to your posts, I have a suggestion: Don't post.

3) Nice usage of the English language.

Snarkiness bonus: A mortgage, how quaint. I got rid of my mortgage before I was 30.
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141 is obviously 2.311475409836066 times better than 61 :D

oh well

And so the comparative phallometry begins :D
 
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slapdown.gif
 
I'm cool with what I posted. A puss is a puss? What can I say?

You did read what you said before you posted it here, right Ed?
 
For the record...me and Rotor Wing posted at the exact same second. Things might have been different had he or I waited a second.
 
Captain said:
I'm cool with what I posted. A puss is a puss? What can I say?

You did read what you said before you posted it here, right Ed?
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No. I'm illiterate and unable to read. :rolleyes:

I'm easily found if you want it said to your face.
 
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Rex Kramer said:
I worked at the same company as Captain in a previous life, though have never flown with him. That being said, y'all need to relax a little. He's trolling some of y'all so bad it's hysterical.


Now I'm just a guy who flies for a living, but I have met great pilots that came from 61 schools... some bad ones, too. Met some ****ty and great pilots from 141. Even met some pretty good pilots and some VERY, VERY bad pilots from the military. You just can't generalize when it comes to ones training, IMO.
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I'll agree with just about everything here...
 
EdFred said:
Based on a PM I got from him, I'm going to disagree with your assessment.
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BTW, nice job jacking up a poor guys thread. All he wanted to know was about ATP and you just couldn't stand me saying I'm the best pilot here even though I am. Nice work Francis!
 
Rex Kramer said:
INow I'm just a guy who flies for a living, but I have met great pilots that came from 61 schools... some bad ones, too. Met some ****ty and great pilots from 141. Even met some pretty good pilots and some VERY, VERY bad pilots from the military. You just can't generalize when it comes to ones training, IMO.
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:yeahthat:
 
schmookeeg said:
I got only my CFI ratings at ATP JAX. I went because I had read good things about Walt, who i understand no longer holds ground school there anymore.

The others in my class had, for the most part, JUST come off of their Comm checkrides in the 2 days prior, and had not even cracked the CFI materials. They were behind the curve throughout and it was very high stress for them.

Since I'm a part 61 a-hole :rolleyes2:, I had the time before showing up in JAX to review the materials and show with cooked lesson plans and a good idea of what I was in for. I had also read the materials we were going to review. The class was actually a bit slow-paced for me, but I tend to apply myself to things I find interesting.

I thought their CFI program was a good one, and there WAS instruction both on ground and in the plane -- it wasn't just a ratings-pass game. I had significant take-aways from my 2 weeks there.

My impression from watching the antics of the accelerated course kids around me was not very good. I don't think I'd recommend the full monty to anyone. That said, I haven't done it. But I think for my money, I'd buy a plane to learn in, or bounce up all of the schools around me and hope I found a good one to roost in for awhile. 60k is a lot to bet on an education -- I'd want to be real cautious where I invested those funds.

$0.02
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Accelerated programs are what you make of them as your post suggests. I got my CFI from a pilot factory, but I certaintly didn't get my ticket handed to me.
 
Captain said:
Yes, you guys carve out a 1% slice for the local mom & pop shops that offer a 141 program. They're pretty few and far between and you can tell when you've found one because MOST of the students are 61.

Good on everyone for pointing out the rare beast. MOST 141 schools are what you would refer to as a 'puppy mill' and MOST of how you all described them are not my experience. I flew as much IMC percentage wise as I do now. I flew over 400 miles away during training flights. That was admittedly odd, but we'd often go 300 or so miles away.

My point, valid as it is, is that folks here tend to bash 141 training...unless it's that 1% that lines up closely with what they got. I'm a product of 141 and damn near the best pilot here!

As an example, 141 pilots tend not to reverse course on runways without permission where 61 trained pilots will argue for pages and pages of threads that it's fine to do.
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That last line of your post has me scratching my head a bit...maybe I'll have another beer and it will make more sense.
 
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