ATP impact

Art VanDelay said:
That would only work if the Feds were onboard and mandated it. What do you think the odds of that would be in our current extremely union un-friendly environment ?
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I disagree. It'd work if the Unions had the balls to toss anyone who wouldn't play. Government didn't originally mandate Master Electricians AFAIK. The Electrician's Union said every job had to have one first. Regulation came later, I believe. It was a way for the Union to prove the "worth" of the product they were providing and the Union put the requirement to use the rankings in their contracts with employers. (They probably also slashed the tires of any dissenters, but I figured I'd leave out their real power base... in many Trades. Only time I've ever seen a 350 lb bank VP run, and I mean run, across a room, was in Cincinatti where I started to unpack a shipping crate not remembering that it was a Teamster's town. Apparently he didn't want his tires slashed. LOL.)
 
Tarheelpilot said:
since everyone works for the same union they get the pilot the union sends or no pilot at all.
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But we're not all the same union. We're all different unions. Even though a good number of us fall under the ALPA umbrella, each MEC operates as an individual union. It has to because there is such disparity between different airline operations, Ops Specs, salaries, retirement plans, etc., that it is not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Like I said before, ALPA is much like the AFL-CIO, an umbrellas organization with other unions as members (including ALPA). The AFL-CIO includes the Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU), the Transport Workers Union of America (TWU), and the United Transportation Union (UTU). All of these unions represent transit workers. If you are a railcar operator in one of the above unions, can/do you take your seniority with you if you switch unions? Does your TWU seniority hold any weight if you join the ATU? They are all AFL-CIO... why the three separate unions representing the same class and craft of laborer. Why not combine the three into one? That's what we're talking about when you bring up the issue of combining UALPA, DALPA, FEDEXALPA, along with USAPA, IPA, SWAPA and APA.

Tarheelpilot said:
what it comes down to is the airline industry pretends to be union but are not really union when you get to the brass tacks
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This, I agree with, for the most part. You have "white collar" pilots who are supposed to be "blue collar" labor. Most are pretty conservative, lots are former military. Not your typical union member. But, make no mistake... they will unionize and they will stand strong, if need be. Some are more militant (United) than others (SWAPA/FedEx), and for good reason. If you are interested in reading more about the history of unions and the airline industry, pick up a copy of Flying the Line (I & II). It'll open your eyes.
 
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When was the last time an airline 'union held strong' that went well for the rank and file?
 
Henning said:
When was the last time an airline 'union held strong' that went well for the rank and file?
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Off the top of my head, the Spirit strike of 2010. Also, the UAL 'summer of love' of 2000 (although one could argue how successful that was). I'm sure that there's some in between.
 
It is my understanding that when trade union pensions invest in building projects they rewire it to be a prevailing wage job. That is another reason why my one-union fantasy-plan has a percentage of the pilots pension fund required to be invested in airlines... I might even go farther as to say it should prohibit stock ownership, but allow lease and bond investments
 
jhausch said:
That is another reason why my one-union fantasy-plan has a percentage of the pilots pension fund required to be invested in airlines...
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Noooo.... that's the last thing I would want for a pension fund. My income is already tied into an airline, I don't want my retirement tied into that, also. Diversification...
Warren Buffett said:
If a capitalist had been present at Kitty Hawk back in the early 1900s, he should have shot Orville Wright. He would have saved his progeny money. But seriously, the airline business has been extraordinary. It has eaten up capital over the past century like almost no other business because people seem to keep coming back to it and putting fresh money in. You’ve got huge fixed costs, you’ve got strong labor unions and you’ve got commodity pricing. That is not a great recipe for success. I have an 800 number now that I call if I get the urge to buy an airline stock. I call at two in the morning and I say: ‘My name is Warren and I’m an aeroholic.’ And then they talk me down.
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Sluggo63 said:
Noooo.... that's the last thing I would want for a pension fund. My income is already tied into an airline, I don't want my retirement tied into that, also. Diversification...
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I'd be happy to tie my pension to my airline (if I had one:)). As soon as management puts THEIR money where their mouth is and took a $1 salary and company stock options as total compensation.
 
Sluggo63 said:
But we're not all the same union. We're all different unions. Even though a good number of us fall under the ALPA umbrella, each MEC operates as an individual union. It has to because there is such disparity between different airline operations, Ops Specs, salaries, retirement plans, etc., that it is not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Like I said before, ALPA is much like the AFL-CIO, an umbrellas organization with other unions as members (including ALPA). The AFL-CIO includes the Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU), the Transport Workers Union of America (TWU), and the United Transportation Union (UTU). All of these unions represent transit workers. If you are a railcar operator in one of the above unions, can/do you take your seniority with you if you switch unions? Does your TWU seniority hold any weight if you join the ATU? They are all AFL-CIO... why the three separate unions representing the same class and craft of laborer. Why not combine the three into one? That's what we're talking about when you bring up the issue of combining UALPA, DALPA, FEDEXALPA, along with USAPA, IPA, SWAPA and APA.

This, I agree with, for the most part. You have "white collar" pilots who are supposed to be "blue collar" labor. Most are pretty conservative, lots are former military. Not your typical union member. But, make no mistake... they will unionize and they will stand strong, if need be. Some are more militant (United) than others (SWAPA/FedEx), and for good reason. If you are interested in reading more about the history of unions and the airline industry, pick up a copy of Flying the Line (I & II). It'll open your eyes.
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Agreed on all counts......

The word "union", when describing airline pilots, is a very loose term.
 
Sluggo63 said:
But we're not all the same union. We're all different unions. Even though a good number of us fall under the ALPA umbrella, each MEC operates as an individual union. It has to because there is such disparity between different airline operations, Ops Specs, salaries, retirement plans, etc., that it is not a one-size-fits-all solution.

Like I said before, ALPA is much like the AFL-CIO, an umbrellas organization with other unions as members (including ALPA). The AFL-CIO includes the Amalgamated Transit Union (ATU), the Transport Workers Union of America (TWU), and the United Transportation Union (UTU). All of these unions represent transit workers. If you are a railcar operator in one of the above unions, can/do you take your seniority with you if you switch unions? Does your TWU seniority hold any weight if you join the ATU? They are all AFL-CIO... why the three separate unions representing the same class and craft of laborer. Why not combine the three into one? That's what we're talking about when you bring up the issue of combining UALPA, DALPA, FEDEXALPA, along with USAPA, IPA, SWAPA and APA.

This, I agree with, for the most part. You have "white collar" pilots who are supposed to be "blue collar" labor. Most are pretty conservative, lots are former military. Not your typical union member. But, make no mistake... they will unionize and they will stand strong, if need be. Some are more militant (United) than others (SWAPA/FedEx), and for good reason. If you are interested in reading more about the history of unions and the airline industry, pick up a copy of Flying the Line (I & II). It'll open your eyes.
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I have read it and I have carried a union card working at two airlines.

The airline union system is what it is. I don't think it will ever change. At the end of the day though there are many benefits of being a union employee that do not exist at the airlines because of the segregation of labor groups. That segregation also materially harms many pilots during merger and bankruptcy events. Just my observations and a large part of the reason I left behind the 121 flying. I'm happy for those that roll the dice at airlines successfully and are happy in the environment. Just wasn't what worked for me.
 
Sluggo63 said:
Noooo.... that's the last thing I would want for a pension fund. My income is already tied into an airline, I don't want my retirement tied into that, also. Diversification...
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Well, not all of it, silly :)
I was thinking no more than 15%.
 
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Art VanDelay said:
Spirit airlines strike and shut down in 2010. Resulted in a very nice contract for an LCC.
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What happened? Did they give the pilots the $35 Carry On Bag Fee?:D Or the money they saved by not getting reclining seats.:rolleyes2: Hopefully Spirit isn't around much longer, I already tell people they cannot fly me on Spirit.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I have read it and I have carried a union card working at two airlines.

The airline union system is what it is. I don't think it will ever change. At the end of the day though there are many benefits of being a union employee that do not exist at the airlines because of the segregation of labor groups. That segregation also materially harms many pilots during merger and bankruptcy events. Just my observations and a large part of the reason I left behind the 121 flying. I'm happy for those that roll the dice at airlines successfully and are happy in the environment. Just wasn't what worked for me.
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If you don't mind me asking, what did you end up doing when you left the 121 world? part 91? 135? Non-flying job? Always open to greener pasture ideas.
 
Henning said:
What happened? Did they give the pilots the $35 Carry On Bag Fee?:D Or the money they saved by not getting reclining seats.:rolleyes2: Hopefully Spirit isn't around much longer, I already tell people they cannot fly me on Spirit.
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I know ! I don't like it either and I always just sit up front when I ride on them. But you did ask ....,,,
 
Art VanDelay said:
I know ! I don't like it either and I always just sit up front when I ride on them. But you did ask ....,,,
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Yeah, no worries, was looking for an honest answer for educational purposes. In this case I wish it would have put the airline out of business.:yesnod:
 
kayoh190 said:
Yep. And Allegiant is next.
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By next, you mean on strike? Going to be hard to go on strike before they have representation. Not a chance they could ever get released to self help before 2020, IMO.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
By next, you mean on strike? Going to be hard to go on strike before they have representation.
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I'm not sure where you've been, but they've had representation for almost two years, and are in mediation right now.
 
kayoh190 said:
I'm not sure where you've been, but they've had representation for almost two years, and are in mediation right now.
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And Republic has been sans contract for what is it, 5 years or something like that? They ain't going to get a strike. And somebody should update APC, how something like that goes 2 years without making on there is beyond me. So I stand corrected, I honestly hadn't paid much attention to them outside the last 6 months. I would never buy a ticket on them on my dime, that's for sure.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
If you don't mind me asking, what did you end up doing when you left the 121 world? part 91? 135? Non-flying job? Always open to greener pasture ideas.
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Look around, when people know you're a pilot you suddenly start finding former airline pilots all over the place. The most recent one I ran into is a home inspector now.

I wonder what percentage of people who start flying for airlines and actually make it all the way to retirement in the airlines is. I'd bet it's quite low - Less than 1/2 for sure.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
And Republic has been sans contract for what is it, 5 years or something like that?
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It's definitely going to take time, and it'll be interesting to see how quickly the mediator pushes things through. That said, the AAY pilot group is absolutely ready to strike if that's what it takes. They want that day to come as soon as possible, and I wish them the best of luck.

Spirit went through this a few years back, and their hard fought contract is such that many pilots see the airline as a place to spend a career. Allegiant's pilot group is attempting the same, and why not? Spirit and Allegiant are two of the most profitable (from a margin standpoint) airlines in the country.
 
kayoh190 said:
It's definitely going to take time, and it'll be interesting to see how quickly the mediator pushes things through. That said, the AAY pilot group is absolutely ready to strike if that's what it takes. They want that day to come as soon as possible, and I wish them the best of luck.

Spirit went through this a few years back, and their hard fought contract is such that many pilots see the airline as a place to spend a career. Allegiant's pilot group is attempting the same, and why not? Spirit and Allegiant are two of the most profitable (from a margin standpoint) airlines in the country.
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And you know, thinking about it, I can see Allegiant getting let go first. They really don't hurt business travelers, just vacationers for the most part. Republic on strike would hurt every legacy carrier out there, and the government simply can't let that happen.:no:
 
kayoh190 said:
It's definitely going to take time, and it'll be interesting to see how quickly the mediator pushes things through. That said, the AAY pilot group is absolutely ready to strike if that's what it takes. They want that day to come as soon as possible, and I wish them the best of luck.

Spirit went through this a few years back, and their hard fought contract is such that many pilots see the airline as a place to spend a career. Allegiant's pilot group is attempting the same, and why not? Spirit and Allegiant are two of the most profitable (from a margin standpoint) airlines in the country.
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Spirit seems much a 'Rode them once' airline, because all you have to do s ride them once and realize you cold have flown someone else cheaper and more comfortably.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Look around, when people know you're a pilot you suddenly start finding former airline pilots all over the place. The most recent one I ran into is a home inspector now.

I wonder what percentage of people who start flying for airlines and actually make it all the way to retirement in the airlines is. I'd bet it's quite low - Less than 1/2 for sure.
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Why would you say that ? It's the best part time job I've ever had ! Your GUESS is way off. If you're talking major airlines north of 75% of pilots make it to retirement.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Why would you say that ? It's the best part time job I've ever had ! Your GUESS is way off. If you're talking major airlines north of 75% of pilots make it to retirement.
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North of 75% who start for *an* airline? IE, you're counting all the ones who start for a regional when they're still suffering from Shiny Jet Syndrome and then quit because the lifestyle sucks?

Do you have a citation? I can't believe that.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
North of 75% who start for *an* airline? IE, you're counting all the ones who start for a regional when they're still suffering from Shiny Jet Syndrome and then quit because the lifestyle sucks?

Do you have a citation? I can't believe that.
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DId you miss the part about "Major airline" ?
 
Art VanDelay said:
I figured he could deduce that upon seeing the term Major Airline.
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But that's not the point. You don't start out working for a major airline. I think the question is, what percentage of people who start out at the beginning of an airline career make it to the end? Let me say that I have no clue what the number is or what it is in any other industry. However, it's clear that you think your job is the greatest and Kent doesn't think it's worth taking a chance the way the industry is structured now. The reality it's that it's probably somewhere in-between.
 
Everskyward said:
But that's not the point. You don't start out working for a major airline. I think the question is, what percentage of people who start out at the beginning of an airline career make it to the end? Let me say that I have no clue what the number is or what it is in any other industry. However, it's clear that you think your job is the greatest and Kent doesn't think it's worth taking a chance the way the industry is structured now. The reality it's that it's probably somewhere in-between.
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Why would anyone invest all that time and effort to just walk away ?

The fallen that he is referring to are most likely the result of the downsizing effect of both deregulation and the post 9/11 economy woes. Being able to get hired into the right seat of a regional with significantly less time than what is now required also may have stacked the deck with people that were delusional. When my nephew was hired into Express Jet after working as a full time CFI he felt he had won the lottery. Even while being "abused" by scheduling in his first year he took it all in stride and welcomed the curve balls they threw at him.

The landscape now and going forward is somewhat different.
There are now basically three mega-carriers. Capacity wise it's difficult to see any one of them failing. We're talking about General Motors sized companies with employees spread out over almost every congressional district in the country. Too big to fail ? Well, never say never but time will surely tell.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Why would anyone invest all that time and effort to just walk away ?

The fallen that he is referring to are most likely the result of the downsizing effect of both deregulation and the post 9/11 economy woes. Being able to get hired into the right seat of a regional with significantly less time than what is now required also may have stacked the deck with people that were delusional. When my nephew was hired into Express Jet after working as a full time CFI he felt he had won the lottery. Even while being "abused" by scheduling in his first year he took it all in stride and welcomed the curve balls they threw at him.

The landscape now and going forward is somewhat different.
There are now basically three mega-carriers. Capacity wise it's difficult to see any one of them failing. We're talking about General Motors sized companies with employees spread out over almost every congressional district in the country. Too big to fail ? Well, never say never but time will surely tell.
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Because they realize they could have a better life doing something else and still afford to fly. There comes a point when you have to stop chasing bad money with good and cut your losses.
 
Henning said:
Because they realize they could have a better life doing something else and still afford to fly. There comes a point when you have to stop chasing bad money with good and cut your losses.
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Depends on the individual I suppose. I can't really think of a terrestrial based job that I would equate to a better life. There's a lot of "adventure" to be missed and opportunity to fly into really unique places in really unique equipment.
 
I knew many people who walked away a long time before 9/11. Some had trouble finding a job and others found out it was not what they expected.
 
I started with my first 135 airline in '86, and in 7 airlines, one freight carrier and 1 corporate gig, I can count on one hand the number of my contemporaries that I know that have left the industry permanently.

That's a few out of, literally, hundreds of people. The higher up the airline career ladder you go, the less attrition there is.

It's definitely not a career for the faint of heart or the casual aviation buff..... You gotta really love it to put up with the nonsense...... :hairraise:
 
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Art VanDelay said:
DId you miss the part about "Major airline" ?
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Everskyward said:
That's what you answered but it's not what Kent asked. He didn't specify "major" airline.
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This.

Art VanDelay said:
I figured he could deduce that upon seeing the term Major Airline.
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But that was not my assertion. I wouldn't disagree with you when it comes to the majors. But by the time someone makes it to the majors, they understand what they're in for. But, the majors certainly aren't immune to M&A or bankruptcies either.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Depends on the individual I suppose. I can't really think of a terrestrial based job that I would equate to a better life. There's a lot of "adventure" to be missed and opportunity to fly into really unique places in really unique equipment.
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I don't see flying for a major airline as particularly adventurous, nor really unique places or equipment. You're flying a big non-unique jet into one of the same old airports all the time. I'd much prefer flying 135 in a smaller plane where you could potentially end up at a lot more airports.

Adventure is found in non-commercial part 91 when you have a terrestrial job that pays a lot better and you can fly your Waco/Husky/homebuilt into Podunk Muni/Backwoods Airpark/wherever the wind took you today at a whim.
 
Different strokes for different folks. This job (and I mean aviation in general - not just the airlines), isn't for everybody. I look forward to going to work every day, I'm off half or more of every month, and can afford to live where I'd like to live in a comfortable manner. But this career also requires certain sacrifices, and while they seem like an easy trade off to me, someone else might think they're entirely unacceptable.

And that's totally okay with me - this world would be boring if we all wanted to do the same crap. :)
 
Slipkid65 said:
I started with my first 135 airline in '86, and in 7 airlines, one freight carrier and 1 corporate gig, I can count on one hand the number of my contemporaries that I know that have left the industry permanently.

That's a few out of, literally, hundreds of people. The higher up the airline career ladder you go, the less attrition there is.

It's definitely not a career for the faint of heart or the casual aviation buff..... You gotta really love it to put up with the nonsense...... :hairraise:
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Of your 7 airlines, how many were major 121 carriers? Seems to me things would be much better at smaller places.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Of your 7 airlines, how many were major 121 carriers?
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One, which I've been at for 18 years.

In the decade before before that it was:

(3) 135 airlines (think the TV show Wings)

(1) 135 charter outfit

(3) 121 turbo prop commuters serving major airlines

(1) 121 Freight carrier

(1) Corporate

Every one of them is out of business, as are the majors we served.


Seems to me things would be much better at smaller places.
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Not in my experience. Although I'd love to fly a DHC-7 again, I wouldn't trade my current position for any of my previous ones. Heck, short of getting paid several hundred grand a year to sit home and do nothing, I can't think of any other job, flying or otherwise, I'd rather do.
 
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